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#41
Quote by TunerAddict
Pretty much as long as it doesn't effect someone else.

Things that involve other people actually being affected don't really fit the criteria.

Persona Grata prays for the benefit of Persona Non Grata, honestly believing Mr. Non Grata will benefit from the effort. This means Mr. Grata believes it will affect someone else. "Other people being affected doesn't really fit the criteria."

It makes no difference what you believe about prayer; if Mr. Grata believes it will work, in his mind someone else is affected.

[IN PHIL WE TRUST]


Quote by Trowzaa
I only play bots. Bots never abandon me. (´・ω・`)

#42
Quote by SteveHouse
Persona Grata prays for the benefit of Persona Non Grata, honestly believing Mr. Non Grata will benefit from the effort. This means Mr. Grata believes it will affect someone else. "Other people being affected doesn't really fit the criteria."

It makes no difference what you believe about prayer; if Mr. Grata believes it will work, in his mind someone else is affected.


I wasn't relating that to be solely self gratifying, but just that it was self gratifying...

I thought we'd left the plane of the original topic long ago lol.

I thought you were arguing that if one believed prayer helped, praying would be a completely selfless act with no benefits to the person praying, but now I see what you meant.
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers

If women can be annoyed there arent any women incongress I should be allowed to be pissed off there are no members of pink floyd or the beatles in congress.
#43
Quote by TunerAddict
I wasn't relating that to be solely self gratifying, but just that it was self gratifying...



Never mind me, I agree with you then.

[IN PHIL WE TRUST]


Quote by Trowzaa
I only play bots. Bots never abandon me. (´・ω・`)

#44
Quote by TunerAddict
You don't get what I'm saying

I'm not saying their motives are wrong like that. I'm just say that selflessness does not exist.

They can certainly care and want that person to get better. But that doesn't make it selfless. They'll still feel better. They'll have peace that they didn't have before because of guilt or grief. They may not notice it, but what they're doing is really in their own interest. I'm not saying its a conscious decision to help themselves, but they are.

Someone is sick, you pray for them. You feel better because you think you've helped them. It doesn't matter if that was your goal or not. You felt upset that they were sick, or that you could help, and you did what you thought would help. In this process, you've helped yourself.

And this is taking the most pro-praying stance I can possibly take.

Are you getting what I'm saying?

Yes.
I will disagree though, I think that selflessness can exist, though I'd say it hardly ever does.
Your scenario: If someone's motives are "pure", then they wouldn't pray for the gratification it brings, they would be praying for what they're praying for. In the case of praying for someone else, the good feeling is just an after-effect of doing something to help others, and should not be the objective. In masturbation (fapfap haha) the person is doing it FOR the self gratification (AND masturbation is an act of lust, separating it from mental gratification in a way).
By the way, masturbation IS a sin. The bible says it is a sin to waste your seed (semen) on the ground.
I feel like debating this won't help either side, so I'm going to leave it at that. Have a nice day.
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Last edited by salsawords at Aug 8, 2009,
#45
Quote by salsawords

By the way, masturbation IS a sin. The bible says it is a sin to waste your seed (semen) on the ground.
.


So as long as it doesn't hit the ground, we're good?
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers

If women can be annoyed there arent any women incongress I should be allowed to be pissed off there are no members of pink floyd or the beatles in congress.
#46
Quote by TunerAddict
So as long as it doesn't hit the ground, we're good?

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#47
I feel stupid as crap whenever I pray. Whereas I feel awesome after I fap. Though if caught in the middle of jerkin I feel quite stupid. Hm.
#48
Screw this point. I'd like to make a point about religion bashing. Why is it ok to bash another human, but not a religion? or a mole for that matter? life's unfair.

However, you make somewhat of a point. When people pray, they either pray for themselves (self-gratifying) or they pray for others. Praying for others isn't a self-gratifying action though. They have a mind set to believe they're helping others, which in turn, might actually help someone else. Listen, you're dying in a hospital, do you have will from thinking of other people? Thinking about how much they care?

I fail to see how praying involves ejaculating into a tissue as well.
#49
Quote by TunerAddict
Yeah, they want to see them suffer less because it makes them feel bad...

Only selfish actions in this world. Some just happen to do better things for others as well as ourselves.


I don't think you can say this. Maybe that's the only reason you do things but you can't speak for the world as a whole.

My ex boyfriend tried to kill himself a few times. I prayed that God would take whatever it was that was hurting him away from him or that if he did someday succeed in killing himself he would be happier wherever he was.

I recieve no benefit from this, as honestly I would have preferred him suffer through than know that he was no longer part of this world. But if he was happier that's all that would have mattered. In fact praying for that hurt me greatly. Not everyone in this world is fully selfish.

EDIT: masturbation =/= prayer
Masturbation : consciously self gratifying, only for self gratification
Prayer: Mostly for others or help, if self gratifying, only subconsciously.
Last edited by hawttieblonde69 at Aug 8, 2009,
#50
Very interesting thought, TS. My take: as with anything humans do, it can go many ways. People can do horrible things with good, selfless intentions, just as people can do some of the most noble and "selfless" acts with really nothing but self motivation. I know the latter is contradictory, but it's true. As a Christian, my belief is that nothing we do matters. Nothing gets us closer or further from God. We can do something that is completely righteous in man's eyes, but "man's righteousness is as filthy rags." And even the "best" Christians can do "God's work," when it's really just out of a self gratifying motive. They can even have completely altruistic intentions, but IMO if they are doing it on their own accord, they are being selfish.

So again, one can pray entirely out of selfishness, or out of complete selflessness.
We're only strays.
Last edited by Martyr's Prayer at Aug 8, 2009,
#51
Quote by Martyr's Prayer

So again, one can pray entirely out of selfishness, or out of complete selflessness.


I must respectfully disagree.
Ultimately, all of the reasons for prayer lead to personal emotional, mental or physical gratification.
#52
Definitely appreciate the feedback guys.

Always good to see how others perceive something.
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers

If women can be annoyed there arent any women incongress I should be allowed to be pissed off there are no members of pink floyd or the beatles in congress.
#53
Now now... what we should take from this thread is that we all should masturbate more.
"The future's uncertain, and The End is always near."
-Jim Morrison
#54
mastubation isn't self gratifying.....and I don't feel less guilty....I feel alot more guilty
#55
Quote by MedicreDemon
mastubation isn't self gratifying.....and I don't feel less guilty....I feel alot more guilty


Are you religious?
#56
Quote by raincoffin
Are you religious?


No, he's lonely.

...

Kinda the same thing i suppose. I used to have an imaginary friend too though, so I can't criticize much.
"The future's uncertain, and The End is always near."
-Jim Morrison
#57
Prayer is a waste of time and amounts to absolutely nothing. It is selfish bull**** though. God went through all of this time to make up his perfect plan for everything, and you're saying he has to change it just for you? Get the fuck out with that.
#58
Quote by raincoffin
I must respectfully disagree.
Ultimately, all of the reasons for prayer lead to personal emotional, mental or physical gratification.


When I pray, it doesn't ease my mind, or body. It makes me feel worse that i'm not doing something else to help.

There is NO gratification in there. It's all about thinking of others to make them feel good, if I felt good about helping others, i'd do it more often. I'm one of those people that hates helping people, because it accomplishes nothing, if it accomplishes nothing and i'm still at disatisfaction with myself, how am I being gratified in any way?

I help people because sometimes people need to be helped. Ultimately, you've narrowed down one aspect of praying.
#59
Quote by raincoffin
I must respectfully disagree.
Ultimately, all of the reasons for prayer lead to personal emotional, mental or physical gratification.


Well before we go ANY further, let's remember not to make this into a religion thread argument.

That having been said, I think the basis of any true selflessness attainable is out of crucifying one's self daily, or in other words affirming one's Christian faith daily by laying down their life as a living sacrifice to God. That way, you are living every day with the decision being made that you will live in accordance with God's will and by God's standards.

That means that you could even be doing something very self gratifying, like say playing a show in front of a lot of people, but if you are doing it because God said to (I know that strikes a chord, but for the sake of argument...), you are doing it selflessly. Again, the emphasis here is that you aren't acting in accordance with your own idea of righteousness.
We're only strays.
Last edited by Martyr's Prayer at Aug 8, 2009,
#60
i'd say that prayer is a lot more like talking to an imaginary friend.... if that imaginary friend pleases you sexually while you speak to him, then i suppose it's like masturbation...
Quote by Machanix
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Life Is A Lemon And I Want My Money Back!

A Wasted Youth
Is Better By Far
Than A Wise And Productive Old Age

Good Girls Go To Heaven, But The Bad Girls Go Everywhere!
#61
Quote by instagata0
i'd say that prayer is a lot more like talking to an imaginary friend.... if that imaginary friend pleases you sexually while you speak to him, then i suppose it's like masturbation...


We just need an imaginary hand that can do it for us.
"The future's uncertain, and The End is always near."
-Jim Morrison
#62
i disagree sir. plus when i pray i'm not like "oh yeah that felt good"
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You just made me spit out my Kool-Aid all over my keyboard.


sorry
#63
Quote by AzureNight
Prayer is a waste of time and amounts to absolutely nothing. It is selfish bull**** though. God went through all of this time to make up his perfect plan for everything, and you're saying he has to change it just for you? Get the fuck out with that.

Wow man, way to be close-minded and speak as if what you think is the indisputable truth. You obviously aren't informed on prayer, or the bible in general, maybe go ask a pastor or something, instead of trolling a guitar forum with hate and ignorance.
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#64
Quote by salsawords
Wow man, way to be close-minded and speak as if what you think is the indisputable truth. You obviously aren't informed on prayer, or the bible in general, maybe go ask a pastor or something, instead of trolling a guitar forum with hate and ignorance.


Actually I completely agree with him. Well not about the part that it's a waste of time, but really why SHOULD God change his plans just for you? If you live day to day with your only true need being Jesus, what do you have to ask for?
We're only strays.
#65
Quote by salsawords
Wow man, way to be close-minded and speak as if what you think is the indisputable truth. You obviously aren't informed on prayer, or the bible in general, maybe go ask a pastor or something, instead of trolling a guitar forum with hate and ignorance.


Nah, he's just stating a good point, even if it may be to an extremity. After everything God did for the world people still attempt to communicate with him to further their own personal motives. Thus, yeah it's quite ridiculous.

God has no reason to listen to some douche who wants his friend to quit smoking or something else along the same lines.
"The future's uncertain, and The End is always near."
-Jim Morrison
Last edited by SlinkyBlue at Aug 8, 2009,
#66
Quote by Martyr's Prayer
Actually I completely agree with him. Well not about the part that it's a waste of time, but really why SHOULD God change his plans just for you? If you live day to day with your only true need being Jesus, what do you have to ask for?


This does bring up an interesting point.

If God has a plan and he knows what going to happen and all that jazz, then isn't you trying to interfere really disrespectful to him and his plan? You aren't changing jack, so asking is pointless and really just insulting. Poor God, always getting insulted.
Quote by jrcsgtpeppers

If women can be annoyed there arent any women incongress I should be allowed to be pissed off there are no members of pink floyd or the beatles in congress.
#67
Quote by Martyr's Prayer
Actually I completely agree with him. Well not about the part that it's a waste of time, but really why SHOULD God change his plans just for you? If you live day to day with your only true need being Jesus, what do you have to ask for?

First off, his plan is not what we're anticipating to happen, it's what happens. Your prayers CAN influence things I believe.
The Bible says we can ask God for guidance, strength, etc... though it's true that the only thing we really need is God.
EDIT: Let me explain a little more about what I mean. God's plan is going to happen no matter what, it's not like a plan a person would make about his party or something like that, it's a plan that is going to happen exactly the way God intends. That means that you praying for something ("true" prayer) is not disrespectful. The Bible encourages prayer!
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Last edited by salsawords at Aug 8, 2009,
#68
Quote by TunerAddict
This does bring up an interesting point.

If God has a plan and he knows what going to happen and all that jazz, then isn't you trying to interfere really disrespectful to him and his plan? You aren't changing jack, so asking is pointless and really just insulting. Poor God, always getting insulted.


Well what about praying for other people to get saved? That's one thing to pray for that is pretty much always in line with God's plans, obviously.
We're only strays.
#69
Quote by salsawords
First off, his plan is not what we're anticipating to happen, it's what happens. Your prayers CAN influence things I believe.
The Bible says we can ask God for guidance, strength, etc... though it's true that the only thing we really need is God.


Do you really believe that you need God to give you strength? Find it within yourself. It's obviously there. Guidance? Live life your own way.

God doesn't give you strength. You get it from within yourself. There is no magical teleport device that sends strength into your body. It's already there.

And yeah, saying all we need is God is silly, we need water, food, oxygen, arguably the opposite sex. I know I don't need God. He's the last thing I need.

All I know is I never ever got that gamecube for christmas
"The future's uncertain, and The End is always near."
-Jim Morrison
Last edited by SlinkyBlue at Aug 8, 2009,
#70
Quote by salsawords
Wow man, way to be close-minded and speak as if what you think is the indisputable truth. You obviously aren't informed on prayer, or the bible in general, maybe go ask a pastor or something, instead of trolling a guitar forum with hate and ignorance.


[IN PHIL WE TRUST]


Quote by Trowzaa
I only play bots. Bots never abandon me. (´・ω・`)

Last edited by SteveHouse at Aug 8, 2009,
#71
Quote by SlinkyBlue
All I know is I never ever got that gamecube for christmas


Yo, i've got a gamecube. You ever wanna play it, give me a ring. It's all set up in my basement, beside the Iron Maiden...poster, it looks really very nice, right next to the headless...horsemen movie I just rented the other day. It's really fun to play with yourself, but better to play with others. I mean it.
#72
Quote by SlinkyBlue
Do you really believe that you need God to give you strength? Find it within yourself. It's obviously there. Guidance? Live life your own way.

God doesn't give you strength. You get it from within yourself. There is no magical teleport device that sends strength into your body. It's already there.

And yeah, saying all we need is God is silly, we need water, food, oxygen, arguably the opposite sex.

All I know is I never ever got that gamecube for christmas

I don't ever pray for strength, but if it floats some peoples' boats, I'm all for it.
Christians believe all we spiritually need is God, physical needs are a different story. I don't think we NEED the opposite sex though (it's definitely nice to have), I'm sure people have died old virgins before.
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#73
Quote by severed-metal
It's really fun to play with yourself, but better to play with others. I mean it.

Hey man, I'm thinking about renting The Prestige next weekend. Ever seen it? Feel free to drop by if you're game

[IN PHIL WE TRUST]


Quote by Trowzaa
I only play bots. Bots never abandon me. (´・ω・`)

#74
Quote by severed-metal
Yo, i've got a gamecube. You ever wanna play it, give me a ring. It's all set up in my basement, beside the Iron Maiden...poster, it looks really very nice, right next to the headless...horsemen movie I just rented the other day. It's really fun to play with yourself, but better to play with others. I mean it.


Thanks man, I appreciate the offer to play your cube.

But I got an xbox instead. I put it right next to my shrine to the devil.
"The future's uncertain, and The End is always near."
-Jim Morrison
#75
Quote by TunerAddict
How does believing prayer helps mean it doesn't fit?

That what I'm not getting. Explain that to me please.

Anyway you shape it, whether they believe it help or not, they are gratifying themselves. They are benefiting from their actions whether "pure" or not.


Masturbation is ENTIRELY self-gratifying. Prayer is not, necessarily.
Quote by dudetheman
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Metalheads are the worst thing that ever happened to metal.
#76
Quote by salsawords
I don't ever pray for strength, but if it floats some peoples' boats, I'm all for it.
Christians believe all we spiritually need is God, physical needs are a different story. I don't think we NEED the opposite sex though (it's definitely nice to have), I'm sure people have died old virgins before.


Well, uhm, I suppose I've got to bring up the fact that none of us would be here if it weren't for the opposite sex, sooo, yeah, we kind of need it.

Spiritually? I don't need God. All my spirit needs is some healthy meditation every once and awhile, to be kind to others, and to live according to my own desires. God has nothing to do with it.
"The future's uncertain, and The End is always near."
-Jim Morrison
#77
Quote by SteveHouse
Hey man, I'm thinking about renting The Prestige next weekend. Ever seen it? Feel free to drop by if you're game

I'M IN!!!!
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EDIT:
Quote by SlinkyBlue
Well, uhm, I suppose I've got to bring up the fact that none of us would be here if it weren't for the opposite sex, sooo, yeah, we kind of need it.

Spiritually? I don't need God. All my spirit needs is some healthy meditation every once and awhile, to be kind to others, and to live according to my own desires. God has nothing to do with it.

I mean we don't need to have sex to survive individually, as a population, yeah we have to breed to continue.
We all have our own beliefs, whatever floats your boat man.
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Last edited by salsawords at Aug 8, 2009,
#78
Hmm...one rejection, and one invitiation...i'm gonna have to say, Yes, i'll bring the popcorn, Steve

Will we need butter? or will we just be making our own?
#79
Quote by SlinkyBlue
Do you really believe that you need God to give you strength? Find it within yourself. It's obviously there. Guidance? Live life your own way.

God doesn't give you strength. You get it from within yourself. There is no magical teleport device that sends strength into your body. It's already there.

And yeah, saying all we need is God is silly, we need water, food, oxygen, arguably the opposite sex.

All I know is I never ever got that gamecube for christmas


If we believe that God incarnated himself as a man, made it possible to forgive all of our sins by dying, and upon rising from the dead, ascended back into heaven, I don't think it's a much bigger stretch to believe in a magical teleportation device that sends strength into our body.

This takes faith. You have to acknowledge, by virtue of the absurd (look it up, Kierkegaard), that you're taking a leap of faith into something irrational. Once we've done that, as I've said, we're committed to living by God's standards. They are unattainable for us by nature ('for all have fallen short'). Don't you think that that would make it necessary for us to depend on something more than our own strength?

EDIT: Again, this is all in context of the Christian belief system for the sake of argument.
We're only strays.
Last edited by Martyr's Prayer at Aug 8, 2009,
#80
Quote by Martyr's Prayer
If we believe that God incarnated himself as a man, made it possible to forgive all of our sins by dying, and upon rising from the dead, ascended back into heaven, I don't think it's a much bigger stretch to believe in a magical teleportation device that sends strength into our body.

This takes faith. You have to acknowledge, by virtue of the absurd (look it up, Kierkegaard), that you're taking a leap of faith into something irrational. Once we've done that, as I've said, we're committed to living by God's standards. They are unattainable for us by nature ('for all have fallen short'). Don't you think that that would make it necessary for us to depend on something more than our own strength?

EDIT: Again, this is all in context of the Christian belief system for the sake of argument.


So what you're saying is what you believe is so ridiculous that believing in said teleportation device isn't so far-fetched?

What an intriguing argument...

As for me, I'll dismiss it all as bologna and continue about my night.
"The future's uncertain, and The End is always near."
-Jim Morrison