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#1
In the second part of "Venice Queen" by the Red Hot Chili Peppers (the acoustic part), John plays this progression: 022000 x34x3x 022000 x34x3x x02400 xx0232.

It's in the key of E and I know that the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 6th chords are, respectively, Em, Em, Asus2, D, but I don't know what that second chord is. If you consider the C as the root, then it is a C°sus2, but I'm starting to wonder if it is an inversion chord (maybe an inversion of D7no5?).

So, what is that chord called?
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#2
if you play a C chord underneath that chord it sounds alright, the first half of the song also runs Em - C so using C as the root makes sense. interestingly i have always played it as x3443x occasionally putting a 3 on the high e-string too that could make it a Cmaj9b5.

it's an odd chord but quite cool sounding

also where does your sig quote come from? i'd just be interested to know...
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#3
Quote by doive
if you play a C chord underneath that chord it sounds alright, the first half of the song also runs Em - C so using C as the root makes sense. interestingly i have always played it as x3443x occasionally putting a 3 on the high e-string too that could make it a Cmaj9b5.

it's an odd chord but quite cool sounding

also where does your sig quote come from? i'd just be interested to know...


It wouldn't be a Cmaj9b5 in that case because there is no 3rd, the 3rd is the most important tone. Its most likely a D7 with an omitted 5, The 5th is very commonly omitted.
#4
Quote by Loves Me Trike
It wouldn't be a Cmaj9b5 in that case because there is no 3rd, the 3rd is the most important tone. Its most likely a D7 with an omitted 5, The 5th is very commonly omitted.


yeah i agree, a C without a 3rd, with a 9 and wíth a flat 5...

D7 is way more logical.
#5
The GP tab I just for it had a Cadd9 there instead of what you have -- so, assuming what you have is the correct chord (I've never heard the song) it's C°sus2.
#6
Quote by Eastwinn
C°sus2.


You're ****ting me right?

The whole meaning of dim7 is that it has a flat 3, 5 and double flat 7. Now you're omitting two notes that define the chord (b3 and bb7).
#7
Quote by Eastwinn
The GP tab I just for it had a Cadd9 there instead of what you have -- so, assuming what you have is the correct chord (I've never heard the song) it's C°sus2.


There is no such thing as a suspended diminished chord.
#9
Quote by Loves Me Trike
There is no such thing as a suspended diminished chord.


Bull****.

However, after playing the song, I realize I was wrong. I was working off of the two tabs, so I just went with C as the root. Having actually heard it played, D is most definitely the root. D7 it is.
#10
Quote by Eastwinn
Bull****.

However, after playing the song, I realize I was wrong. I was working off of the two tabs, so I just went with C as the root. Having actually heard it played, D is most definitely the root. D7 it is.


How can a diminished chord have a 2 or 4?

The whole thing is the sound of b3 and b5. It's like calling a E5 a Emajor.
#11
Quote by deHufter
How can a diminished chord have a 2 or 4?

The whole thing is the sound of b3 and b5. It's like calling a E5 a Emajor.


Here, I wrote something real quick in Db Major that uses a C°sus4. Happy?



Db - C°sus4 - C° - Bbm - Ab7sus2 - Ab7

Sounds great, and the suspension is functioning. It's hard to play, so put it in Guitar Pro or Powertab or something.

Edit: Coincidentally, this is also a great example of how a progression in a Major key can sound melancholy. Remind me to dig this up next time somebody mention "Major = Happy, Minor = Sad".
Last edited by Eastwinn at Aug 8, 2009,
#12
Quote by Eastwinn
Here, I wrote something real quick in Db Major that uses a C°sus4. Happy?



No, im not happy, it's still bullcrap. Maybe the chord works and you can call it however you like, but a dim chord has to have a b3 and a b5.
#13
Quote by deHufter
No, im not happy, it's still bullcrap. Maybe the chord works and you can call it however you like, but a dim chord has to have a b3 and a b5.


Would you feel better if I called it a Csus4b5? That's also correct, but C°sus4 is way more descriptive.
#14
Quote by Eastwinn
but C°sus4 is way more descriptive.


No it's not, it's giving a chord a name which it's not.

1 b3 b5 = diminished

1 b5 and whatever is not diminished

1 b3 and whatever is not diminished
#15
C°sus4 not only implies 1 4 b5, but almost as importantly, tells you what is being suspended. It's like saying Cmsus4 -- it's an oxymoron, but that can be forgotten for the sake of the valuable extra information.
#16
Quote by Eastwinn
Here, I wrote something real quick in Db Major that uses a C°sus4. Happy?



Db - C°sus4 - C° - Bbm - Ab7sus2 - Ab7

Sounds great, and the suspension is functioning. It's hard to play, so put it in Guitar Pro or Powertab or something.

Edit: Coincidentally, this is also a great example of how a progression in a Major key can sound melancholy. Remind me to dig this up next time somebody mention "Major = Happy, Minor = Sad".


You are wrong, that isn't how its named. How in good lord did you name the 2nd last chord, its Eb minor, you can't get an simpler than that.
#17
Quote by Loves Me Trike
You are wrong, that isn't how its named. How in good lord did you name the 2nd last chord, its Eb minor, you can't get an simpler than that.


It leads into the Ab7 as if it were an Ab7sus2. I couldn't find a better way to voice it, so I had another instrument playing the root. I assumed no one would pay too much attention to that part or care to see the other other part, so I left it as is.

Anyway, do you want to tell me why I'm wrong? I believe the chord I have correctly functions as a suspension of a diminished chord. I don't see where the problem is at all.
#18
Quote by Eastwinn
It leads into the Ab7 as if it were an Ab7sus2. I couldn't find a better way to voice it, so I had another instrument playing the root. I assumed no one would pay too much attention to that part or care to see the other other part, so I left it as is.

Yeah, ok. The way you wrote it as minor ii chord, leading to a V7 would be a much better progression though

Quote by Eastwinn
Anyway, do you want to tell me why I'm wrong? I believe the chord I have correctly functions as a suspension of a diminished chord. I don't see where the problem is at all.


Because nobody uses that term and it doesn't function in the way you say it does. Any other suspension has a sort of resolving sound when it moves on, in that case its just a dissonant chord with a tone that moves and doesn't change the overall sound at all. Having the b5 in the suspended part makes it sound nothing like a suspension.
Last edited by Loves Me Trike at Aug 8, 2009,
#19
Just a note on the diminished chords, it's my understanding that to notate a chord with a ° sign it has to be a fully diminished chord ergo having a 1 b3 b5 bb7. If you put a suspended second in there it's not really a diminished seventh chord anymore. That's the only thing I really see wrong with your suspended diminished chords. If you feel a suspended diminished chord functionally fits the chord progression the best then that's ok with me.

And on topic, an inverted D7 chord seems the most logical to me.
#20
well you could say D7/C or C add9 # 11,
even through a lot of notes are missing from the 2nd chord , in context of the song it works , and it places the C as the root note.
the move from Em to C is very pleasing on to the ear; and this is another reason why id go with C add9 #11 ,
when faced with chords on the guitar it is quite common to omit notes as we only have 6 strings to play with .
of course if the bass player is playing a D note underneath the chord this changes things and i would go for the D7 suggestion , but on its own id say C add9 # 11
you can add (no 5th ,3rd ) if you want to be more accurate , but in the overall context , id just go with C add9 #11 , if you were to add the open G or E string they fall in line quite harmonically .
when naming chords i think it is important to think of the bigger picture , i.e what everyone else is playing , where common progression normally fall .
you can try to be super accurate , but sometimes by doing so you can loose the flow of the music ,language .
Last edited by ibanez1511 at Aug 9, 2009,
#21
Quote by ibanez1511
well id you could say D7/C or C add9 # 11,
even through a lot of notes are missing from the 2nd chord , in context of the song it works , and it places the C as the root note.
the move from Em to C is a very pleasing on to the ear and this is another reason why id go with C add9 #11 ,
when faced with chords on the guitar it is quite common to omit notes as we only have 6 strings to play with .
of course if the bass player is playing a D note underneath the chord this changes things and i would go for the D7 suggestion , but on its own id say C add9 # 11
you can add (no 5th ,3rd ) if you want to be more accurate , but in the overall context , id just go with C add9 #11 , if you were to add the open G or E string it fall in quite harmonically .
when naming chords i think it is important to think of the bigger picture , i.e what everyone else is playing , where common progression normally fall .
you can try to be super accurate , but sometimes by doing so you can loose the flow of the music ,language .



Just no;

Why do people omit 3rd and 5ths so easily.

An Analogy to show how weird it sounds to most musicians;

A house;

R = Door
3rd = Walls
5th = Roof

Taking out the 3rd and 5th means you only have a door, which doesn't characterises a house.

You can't take those intervals away and call it Cadd9#11(no3rd,no5th).

They are to vital, and only disappear in special contexts.

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#22
Quote by xxdarrenxx
Just no;

Why do people omit 3rd and 5ths so easily.

An Analogy to show how weird it sounds to most musicians;

A house;

R = Door
3rd = Walls
5th = Roof

Taking out the 3rd and 5th means you only have a door, which doesn't characterises a house.

You can't take those intervals away and call it Cadd9#11(no3rd,no5th).

They are to vital, and only disappear in special contexts.


Taking out the 5th is no big deal.
#23
Omitting chord tones is quite usual, especially in the context of a band... you can always omit the root when you have a bass player, something that is lost when only the guitar part is considered when working out the chord. The 5th is never a huge deal, and the more extended the chord is, the more you can miss out.

With diminished chords, it isn't unusual to voice them with another tone from the scale, it sounds harsher, accentuating the chord, and of course you don't actually need the guitar to voice all of the chord tones... there are other instruments.
#24
Quote by Eastwinn
Here, I wrote something real quick in Db Major that uses a C°sus4. Happy?



Db - C°sus4 - C° - Bbm - Ab7sus2 - Ab7

Sounds great, and the suspension is functioning. It's hard to play, so put it in Guitar Pro or Powertab or something.

Edit: Coincidentally, this is also a great example of how a progression in a Major key can sound melancholy. Remind me to dig this up next time somebody mention "Major = Happy, Minor = Sad".



Yeah, I'm not being convinced by the "suspended diminished" chord. The progression would sound MUCH better is it was Db - Cm - Cdim - Bbm - Ebm - Ab7

This where there are passing tones in the chords, and provides such function to the second. The second chord doesn't serve much purpose at all, until to it moves to the dim chord, which actually has a proper function. The added passing tone provides a greater pull to the next chord, ratehr then that attempted suspension.

What I'm trying to say is you're trying to give a single chord two purposes and they're cancelling eachother out.
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#25
Quote by Wiegenlied
What I'm trying to say is you're trying to give a single chord two purposes and they're cancelling eachother out.


I'm not giving it two purposes. I'm giving it one: a suspension. I hear that as a suspension resolving to a certain degree to the regular diminished chord. Beyond that, it also provides a stepwise motion in the top voice. Voice leading, as you know, has a big influence on the use of suspensions. Even if you don't agree with that, how else would you name that chord?
#26
Quote by Eastwinn
I'm not giving it two purposes. I'm giving it one: a suspension. I hear that as a suspension resolving to a certain degree to the regular diminished chord. Beyond that, it also provides a stepwise motion in the top voice. Voice leading, as you know, has a big influence on the use of suspensions. Even if you don't agree with that, how else would you name that chord?


Suspended Diminished Chords Don't Exist
#27
Quote by Eastwinn
I'm not giving it two purposes. I'm giving it one: a suspension. I hear that as a suspension resolving to a certain degree to the regular diminished chord. Beyond that, it also provides a stepwise motion in the top voice. Voice leading, as you know, has a big influence on the use of suspensions. Even if you don't agree with that, how else would you name that chord?


I'd say that chord is an F#maj7add#11/C omit 3
Quote by Night
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Last edited by Wiegenlied at Aug 9, 2009,
#28
Quote by Wiegenlied
I'd say that chord is an F#maj7add#11/C omit 3




Can you not say Cdim add11?
Last edited by Ssargentslayer at Aug 9, 2009,
#30
Quote by Ssargentslayer



Can you not say Cdim add11?


No because a diminished chord would need a third and/or seventh to function as one. At least interpreting it as an F# chord there is a 7th. The chord TS stated makes perfect sense, because it is a D7, there is the root, then the 3rd and 7th which have a tritone interval between eachother which make the chord a dominant. Like I previously alluded to, your chord just doesn't have a proper function which provides the difficultly in labelling it.
Quote by Night
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#31
Sorry to bump an old thread of mine but I figured it would be better than making a whole new thread.

So, I was playing "After All These Years" by Silverchair on piano, and I came across this chord again. The notes are (in order), B F# B C# E#(F) (1 5 1(8) 9 #11). I am led to believe this is a Bmaj#11 (or Bmaj9#11? however it's notated...) because although it omits the 3 and the 7, the 7th is sung in the melody line, and the chord switches to a B major, so there's that D#, confirming that it's major.

Is this right? I can't imagine it's an inversion, particularly because it switches to that B major.

Oh and going back to the Venice Queen chord, it can't be a C dim because there is a perfect fifth in it. It has to be an augmented 4 or 11.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#32
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#33
Quote by food1010

So, I was playing "After All These Years" by Silverchair on piano, and I came across this chord again. The notes are (in order), B F# B C# E#(F) (1 5 1(8) 9 #11). I am led to believe this is a Bmaj#11 (or Bmaj9#11? however it's notated...) because although it omits the 3 and the 7, the 7th is sung in the melody line, and the chord switches to a B major, so there's that D#, confirming that it's major.

Is this right? I can't imagine it's an inversion, particularly because it switches to that B major.



If there's no 3rd a Bsus2add#11 would be a better name i guess. If you name it like this you dont really miss the 3rd cause it's suspended.
#34
Quote by food1010
Sorry to bump an old thread of mine but I figured it would be better than making a whole new thread.

So, I was playing "After All These Years" by Silverchair on piano, and I came across this chord again. The notes are (in order), B F# B C# E#(F) (1 5 1(8) 9 #11). I am led to believe this is a Bmaj#11 (or Bmaj9#11? however it's notated...) because although it omits the 3 and the 7, the 7th is sung in the melody line, and the chord switches to a B major, so there's that D#, confirming that it's major.

Is this right? I can't imagine it's an inversion, particularly because it switches to that B major.

Oh and going back to the Venice Queen chord, it can't be a C dim because there is a perfect fifth in it. It has to be an augmented 4 or 11.


I'd name it B7♯11sus2 or Bmaj7♯11sus2, depending on which seventh is being sung.
Last edited by isaac_bandits at Oct 31, 2009,
#35
Is the 7th being held at all, or does it fairly quickly resolve upward to the octave, or downward to the sixth or the fifth? That could make a big difference in how you're interpreting this.

Also, what key is the song in?

Also, what chord precedes it? (you did say it was followed by a B major.)

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#36
I'll post a picture of the section. The 7th is held out fairly long, and it goes up to the 1 for a sixteenth note, in comparison to the rest of the two beats the 7th is held out over. I don't know if that would be considered a resolution.

According to the music, the first part of the song is in Db, and then (in the section this chord is in) modulates to E (or more logically, C#m), but there's no apparent resolution, so I can't be sure of that. There is an E major triad in this section, but it doesn't sound resolved. In fact, there's a bit of tension, this section sounds most resolved on the B major. If I didn't know any better I'd say it's in B mixolydian.

Come to think of it, I'm pretty convinced the key signature is missing an A#, because the key of B major makes a lot of sense.

It's preceded by a D#m.

Quote by isaac_bandits
I'd name it B7♯11sus2 or Bmaj7♯11sus2, depending on which seventh is being sung.
Major, sorry for not specifying.
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Last edited by food1010 at Oct 31, 2009,
#37
The C# is definitely resolving to the D# in the B chord, so it should be a sus2. I don't like the F♮ in the right hand. Is it supposed to be an E♯ (does it sound right)?
#38
Quote by isaac_bandits
The C# is definitely resolving to the D# in the B chord, so it should be a sus2. I don't like the F♮ in the right hand. Is it supposed to be an E♯ (does it sound right)?
Yeah I believe it should be E#. It doesn't make any sense to me to have an F and an F#. That's why I suggested it was a #4 or #11.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#39
Quote by food1010
Yeah I believe it should be E#. It doesn't make any sense to me to have an F and an F#. That's why I suggested it was a #4 or #11.


Yeah I just thought it would make more sense if it was supposed to be an F♯. But I assume the E♯ sounds right, so it must be a Bmaj7♯11sus2.
#40
Quote by isaac_bandits
Yeah I just thought it would make more sense if it was supposed to be an F♯. But I assume the E♯ sounds right, so it must be a Bmaj7♯11sus2.
That makes a lot of sense now, thanks! Also, do you think that would be the proper nomenclature for the Venice Queen chord too? (well, Cmaj7#11sus2.)

Edit: No, there's no 7 in it... Csus2(#4) then?
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Oct 31, 2009,
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