#1
I'm compiling this chord compendium, and I just got to minor-major7th chords. I have no trouble understanding these; they're kind of like the opposite to a dominant in my head.

Anyways, I'm putting written notes alongside so I have little review sheets while I practice the chords and can make sure I use them correctly and effectively without introducing non-harmonic tones. Well, since these chords have a b3 and maj7, I realized right off the hop they'd work as the i chord in harmonic minor or ascending melodic minor. When I checked all-guitar-chords, it also said that in the harmonic minor, the VI chord could also be a mmaj7.

This seems completely wrong to me. The VI chord in the minor is the same as the IV chord in the relative major, meaning it's the sub-dominant and is a major chord. Major chords have major thirds; minor chords have minor thirds, so it seems like playing a minor-major in place of the VI chord would introduce a non-harmonic tone. Is the website wrong, or is there something I'm not seeing here? Please tell me someone!
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#2
I'm not gonna go ahead and figure out what it is myself but I know m/M7 chords have a b3. Also I see no mention of the 5th in there, what are you doing with that? Because the chord is b3 5 7
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#3
Quote by MadMudgeN
I'm compiling this chord compendium, and I just got to minor-major7th chords. I have no trouble understanding these; they're kind of like the opposite to a dominant in my head.

Anyways, I'm putting written notes alongside so I have little review sheets while I practice the chords and can make sure I use them correctly and effectively without introducing non-harmonic tones. Well, since these chords have a b3 and maj7, I realized right off the hop they'd work as the i chord in harmonic minor or ascending melodic minor. When I checked all-guitar-chords, it also said that in the harmonic minor, the VI chord could also be a mmaj7.

This seems completely wrong to me. The VI chord in the minor is the same as the IV chord in the relative major, meaning it's the sub-dominant and is a major chord. Major chords have major thirds; minor chords have minor thirds, so it seems like playing a minor-major in place of the VI chord would introduce a non-harmonic tone. Is the website wrong, or is there something I'm not seeing here? Please tell me someone!


You don't always have to use diatonic harmony, they were probably saying it works as an interesting substitution or w/e. But yeah the VI chord in minor is a maj7 chord. Also using the mmaj7 chord as a i chord doesn't really work, it way too unstable to function as a root chord. You could use it as an embellishment maybe?
Last edited by Loves Me Trike at Aug 8, 2009,
#4
The VI chord in harmonic minor has a raised second, so that's what they probably were going for; while it isn't correct to call that chord a mmajor7, it has the same notes if you substitute the 3rd for the raised 2nd.
#5
The website is technically incorrect because the minor third they say is in the VI chord of an harmonic minor scale is really an augmented second, enharmonic to a minor third but functionally different. It is not a non-harmonic tone (well, a minor third would be a non-harmonic tone, an augmented second however is not) because the note that functions as the augmented second in the VI mode (don't know what it would be called) of harmonic minor is the major 7th of the i mode of the harmonic minor scale.

Maybe an example will be less confusing. In the key of A harmonic minor, the VI chord is Fmaj7. The notes in that key go F G# A B C D E (1 #2 3 #4 5 6 7), the G# is enharmonic to Ab, the minor third of an F minor chord, however calling it a minor third would be technically incorrect and therefore calling an Fsus#2maj7 chord (something like that ) F minor-major 7 would technically be incorrect.
Last edited by st.stephen at Aug 8, 2009,
#6
Quote by KillahSquirrel
The VI chord in harmonic minor has a raised second, so that's what they probably were going for; while it isn't correct to call that chord a mmajor7, it has the same notes if you substitute the 3rd for the raised 2nd.


Yeah a maj7#9 is pretty close but leaving out the 3rd is greasy. Deriving chords from harmonic/melodic minor is wonky anyway, a lot of those chords don't really fit with diatonic harmony.
#7
Quote by Loves Me Trike
You don't always have to use diatonic harmony, they were probably saying it works as an interesting substitution or w/e. But yeah the VI chord in minor is a maj7 chord. Also using the mmaj7 chord as a i chord doesn't really work, it way too unstable to function as a root chord. You could use it as an embellishment maybe?

What do you mean way too unstable? I'm just saying you could use it as the root because all the tones are going to be "in-key". It does sound like a train wreck, so it'd be weird, but harmonically it'd still fit is all I meant.

Anyways, I get it. It's like a sus2 with the raised seventh so that chord can be either a major or a minor since that's where the adjacent tones happen to lie. Thanks guys
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Last edited by MadMudgeN at Aug 9, 2009,
#8
Quote by MadMudgeN
What do you mean way too unstable? I'm just saying you could use it as the root because all the tones are going to be "in-key". It does sound like a train wreck, so it'd be weird, but harmonically it'd still fit is all I meant.



The chord is too dissonant to sound like the root chord. It sounds like it wants to go to something else, which shouldn't be the case with the root chord. But yes you can derive it from the harmonic or melodic minor scales as a i chord.
#9
What do you mean way too unstable? I'm just saying you could use it as the root because all the tones are going to be "in-key". It does sound like a train wreck, so it'd be weird, but harmonically it'd still fit is all I meant.


A mM7 chord does not function as a tonic, and is harmonically useless. Harmonic minor is a convention in minor tonality in which the seventh degree is raised when it is expected to lead to the tonic, it is not a key (nor is melodic minor) and progressions are not derived from it.
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#10
If you build a chord off the ♭VI chord in a minor key you get the scale degrees...

♭6 - 1 - ♭3 So in the Key of Am the ♭VI chord is an F major. The seventh chord off that root is F major seventh as it uses the 5th degree (E) of the Am scale as a major seventh.

If you use a minor/major seventh off that F root in the key of Am you get Fm/M7 which uses the notes F A♭ C E.

If you re-label the A♭ as it's enharmonic equivalent, G♯, then you have the key's leading tone which is the characteristic note of A harmonic minor.

So yes using the harmonic minor scale over a ♭VIm/M7 chord as the book suggested does "fit". For example in the key of Am the use of A harmonic minor would fit nicely over an Fm/M7.
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Last edited by 20Tigers at Aug 9, 2009,
#11
Quote by Archeo Avis
A mM7 chord does not function as a tonic, and is harmonically useless. Harmonic minor is a convention in minor tonality in which the seventh degree is raised when it is expected to lead to the tonic, it is not a key (nor is melodic minor) and progressions are not derived from it.


then what do you sugest its use for?
#12
Quote by WishfulShredder
then what do you sugest its use for?


To scare the **** out of people.
#13
Quote by quinny1089
The mM7 does function as the tonic minor.

Melodic minor harmony is becoming less of a the convention of minor tonality it was and is now (in popular music) considered a individual basis for harmony and the chords/modes derived from such.

The lydian augmented and lydian dominant chords (3rd and 4th degrees of the melodic minor) are very widely used. And even more importantly, the Altered dominant chord/mode derived from the seventh degree is so widely used it would be naive to ignore.


No it doesn't. Its an interesting chord that can be put to to use, but not as an i chord. Not sure what everything else you said has to do with that.
#14
Quote by quinny1089
Yes it can. there are many places where the mM7 chord can and has been used as the tonic minor. The most common is probably when Minor 2-5-1s are used to establish the tonic, and mM7 chords are often the finishing chord.

And the rest of my post was explaining that Melodic minor is no longer considered just a convention of minor tonality. The scale in itself is often used exclusively for the harmonic quality it produces.


You can use it as a i chord for a surprise effect, but it still doesn't work as a tonic chord. If you don't ever change it to a more stable chord it will never resolve and properly establish a key. Maybe you don't want to establish a key, and you want to keep the listener off guard or w/e, but that isn't the function of a tonic chord. It never sounds like "home" and to say it can function as a tonic is completely wrong.

And some of the scales derived from melodic minor (like the altered scale) are nonsensical in and of themselves. They are used as ways to think about altered tones over dominants, but they aren't really "scales" per say. Deriving harmony from melodic minor just doesn't work a lot of the time. Chords like Mmaj7 and altered dominants and such are best seen as embellishments to the normal harmonies derived from the major scale.
Last edited by Loves Me Trike at Aug 9, 2009,
#15
I totally agree with everything quinny has said. The way melodic minor harmony is disregarded makes it very confusing for people who are trying to learn about it. It is frequently used as a base by Jazz musicians, and it can also be used in songs using major scale harmony.
#16
Quote by Sam_Vimes
I totally agree with everything quinny has said. The way melodic minor harmony is disregarded makes it very confusing for people who are trying to learn about it. It is frequently used as a base by Jazz musicians, and it can also be used in songs using major scale harmony.


Melodic minor is, harmonically, all but completely non-functional. You can most certainly build chords and derive harmony from it, but outside of a V-i movement, you are not going to be using it to construct any progressions ("progression" implies tonal movement).
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