#1
Ok, so i have a question which is, when im playing a chord progression, we`ll say C E F G to be simple, its in the key of C, now when im choosing a scale to solo over, it would be the C scale obviously, but where i can`t make a connection is how people throw things like the pentatonic minor scale and things like that even though half of the notes aren`t in the scale, and i also wanna know if you should change scales with the chords? or would you do that with modes, like change the base note for 2 measures to E while the second chord is being played but in the same scale?

Please any help would be appreciated, cause i understand alot of seperate concepts, but just not how to put them all together.

and sorry if this has been asked a million times and i was too lazy to find it, i don`t have alot of time here
#2
for the pentatonic you use the pentatonic of the relative minor which in this case would be A minor, so you would use A minor pentatonic. and you dont have to switch scales between chords as long as they are all in the same key.
#3
Hey, I'm not 100% sure about this, but here goes.

If your playing C E F G, you could solo a C major scale over the whole thing, but, you could also solo going "C" C scale, "E" E scale, "F" F scale etc. "Treating them as separate events".

Just to say again, I'm no expert, and have only just started teaching myself theory, please forgive me if I'm wrong
Wait.



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#4
Quote by a0kalittlema0n
Ok, so i have a question which is, when im playing a chord progression, we`ll say C E F G to be simple, its in the key of C, now when im choosing a scale to solo over, it would be the C scale obviously, but where i can`t make a connection is how people throw things like the pentatonic minor scale and things like that even though half of the notes aren`t in the scale, and i also wanna know if you should change scales with the chords? or would you do that with modes, like change the base note for 2 measures to E while the second chord is being played but in the same scale?

Please any help would be appreciated, cause i understand alot of seperate concepts, but just not how to put them all together.

and sorry if this has been asked a million times and i was too lazy to find it, i don`t have alot of time here

IF you wanna use Pentatonic over that it would work, you'd use C maj pentatonic, or A minor since you asked for minor pentatonic. I think what you mean by changing scales with the base note, is that you would want to resolve to chord tones of each chord, so on Em (im assuming you just made a mistake and didnt write minor) you would resolve to E, G, or B (the chord tones.)
"I wanna see movies of my dreams"
#5
Basic n00b question easy answer. Look when you are soling over the chord progression of C, there are infinite possibilties.
1) Just follow the scale of C as in pick up a major C scale and construct a solo. You can also use a major C pentatonic scale to solo.
2) You can follow the relative minor. As in if you have a chord C it's relative minor would be Am ie one and a half step down. Like for D major your relative minor is Bm. You can also use a relative minor scale while soloing over a chord progression. Like you can very well use Am scale or Am pentatonic.
3) You can use arpeggios. For each chord play their respective arpeggios.
4) Regarding the modes stuff. The basic way to understand modes is to use a different scale while playing a particular progression. Like, in this particular chord progression you have a C major chord. Now you have choices. 3 of them I've already mentioned. Fourth one is that you have to remember that C major is also a part of the G major chord progression. So instead of playing a C major or an Am scale you can play a G major or an Em scale(relative minor).
5) If you are an intermediate, you can also use some exotic scales or some harmonic or melodic minor scales.
6) Of mish mash all of these concepts.
#6
You can't use the relative minor over a major progression - it would resolve to the wrong note/chord. For the same reason, you wouldn't use modes.

In blues you can use the parallel minor pent over a major progression - I'll let someone else that knows more than me explain why

C E F G is not a diatonic progression (its doesn't stay in a single key - the iii of C Major is Em not E) - if it resolves to C I'd probably use C Maj or C Maj pent over all of it except the E, where I'd probably switch to C min or stick mainly to chord tones, depending on how long the E chord lasted for.

That may not be the best way, as I'm still a beginner myself, but it should work.
#7
Quote by budreiser1
for the pentatonic you use the pentatonic of the relative minor which in this case would be A minor, so you would use A minor pentatonic. and you dont have to switch scales between chords as long as they are all in the same key.


Thats exactly the answer i wanted thank you.

guitarplaya: yes i meant Em thanks


Heminator:

How exactly did you say i could use a G scale or a Em scale? i didn`t exactly get what you mean by its part of the G chord progression, are you saying that the chord progressions i put are also usable for the key of G so i can use that and its relative minor key?


also anything else that anyone would like to explain to help me out i would love just learning how ¨theoretically¨ i can solo and improvise, so any possibilities would be helpful, if you use most theoretical terms i`ll most likely understand cause i`ve played piano for awhile
Last edited by a0kalittlema0n at Aug 14, 2009,
#8
Quote by a0kalittlema0n
Thats exactly the answer i wanted thank you.

guitarplaya: yes i meant Em thanks


Heminator:

How exactly did you say i could use a G scale or a Em scale? i didn`t exactly get what you mean by its part of the G chord progression, are you saying that the chord progressions i put are also usable for the key of G so i can use that and its relative minor key?


also anything else that anyone would like to explain to help me out i would love just learning how ¨theoretically¨ i can solo and improvise, so any possibilities would be helpful, if you use most theoretical terms i`ll most likely understand cause i`ve played piano for awhile



What I meant was that The chord progression you mentioned is a C major chord progression. But the chords in the G major chord progression are G C D (all major) ie C major is common in both the progressions. So, when a C major chord is being played, you can use a G major scale. But you cannot do so with the other chords like F major for they are not in the progression of G major. This is the most basic way of understanding modes.

Plus to the guy who said you cannot use minor scale. Dude you are COMLETELY wrong. I suggest you watch Marty Freidman's Melodic Control video to learn a thing or two about soloing and use of minor scales.
#9
wow, so thats how i know which notes out of the key of C i can play? like you mentioned i can use the G major scale when the C is being played in the progression, so i can play the f sharp (sorry on a worthless spanish keyboard that i can`t figure out how to use haha) in the scale even though it doesn`t fit into the c major scale. That is right right?

So then if i was in the key of D Major we`ll say could i also play the G major scale when the Dmajor chord is being played?

BTW Thank you so much everyone that has helped
#10
Quote by Heminator89

Plus to the guy who said you cannot use minor scale. Dude you are COMLETELY wrong. I suggest you watch Marty Freidman's Melodic Control video to learn a thing or two about soloing and use of minor scales.


No sir, you are wrong. The chord progression in would have to also be in the relative minor to use the relative minor to solo. This progression is in C maj (now TS confirmed the E is actually Em) so you use C maj. You can, of course, use accidentals to your taste and change the scale over each separate chord, if you wish; but this is a Cmaj progression, nothing else.
Last edited by Myshadow46_2 at Aug 14, 2009,
#11
Quote by Myshadow46_2
No sir, you are wrong. The chord progression in would have to also be in the relative minor to use the relative minor to solo. This progression is in C maj (now TS confirmed the E is actually Em) so you use C maj.



I didn't get you. Care to elaborate?
Plus if it's a C major chord cant' you use a Am scale over it? To my knowledge you can.
#12
Quote by Heminator89
I didn't get you. Care to elaborate?
Plus if it's a C major chord cant' you use a Am scale over it? To my knowledge you can.


If you are soloing over a chord progression in the key of Cmaj then you are using the Cmaj scale. If you are soloing over a chord progression in the key of Am then you are using Am scale. It makes no difference that both scales contain the same notes; it is the intervals that make the scales which give them their individual sounds.

C maj scale is 1,2,3,4,5,6,7

A min scale is 1,2,3b,4,5,6b,7b

If you play over a Cmaj chord using, then it is in Cmaj. However, if the Cmaj chord is used in the context of an Am chord progression then you are going to be playing in Am. I suppose you could argue that if you chose carefully, the notes that you played over the Cmaj chord in the Am progression you would be in Cmaj, but I think that is
overcomplicating the issue
#13
Quote by Myshadow46_2
If you are soloing over a chord progression in the key of Cmaj then you are using the Cmaj scale. If you are soloing over a chord progression in the key of Am then you are using Am scale. It makes no difference that both scales contain the same notes; it is the intervals that make the scales which give them their individual sounds.

C maj scale is 1,2,3,4,5,6,7

A min scale is 1,2,3b,4,5,6b,7b

If you play over a Cmaj chord using, then it is in Cmaj. However, if the Cmaj chord is used in the context of an Am chord progression then you are going to be playing in Am. I suppose you could argue that if you chose carefully, the notes that you played over the Cmaj chord in the Am progression you would be in Cmaj, but I think that is
overcomplicating the issue


Cmaj 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Cmaj C, D, E, F, G, A, B

Amin 1, 2, 3b, 4, 5, 6b, 7b
Amin A, B, C, D, E, F, G

That's also why you can switch from minor to relative major on 3rd note and from major to relative minor on 6th note

my 2 cents
i'm no expert
#14
It seems like the confusion relates to the difference between a scale pattern and an actual scale. You can play an A minor "scale pattern" over a progression that is C-F-G, but it's not actually A minor, it's C major. The tonic would be the C note and the melody would resolve to C, not A.

You would never call a C-F-G progression and Am progression, so why would you call the scale Am?
#15
You cannot "switch from minor to relative major" unless you change the chords you're playing over.

It's the biggest myth in guitar playing and it's been around as long as I can remember...and it's bollocks
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#16
ok, so can anyone correct my mistake:

Cmaj 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Cmaj C, D, E, F, G, A, B

Amin 1, 2, 3b, 4, 5, 6b, 7b
Amin A, B, C, D, E, F, G

replace the wrong notes in Amin with correct ones please. i want to get it right & clear.
Last edited by g0dd4rd at Aug 14, 2009,
#17
Quote by steven seagull
You cannot "switch from minor to relative major" unless you change the chords you're playing over.

It's the biggest myth in guitar playing and it's been around as long as I can remember...and it's bollocks


That sums it up nicely!

Quote by g0dd4rd
ok, so can anyone correct my mistake:

Cmaj 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Cmaj C, D, E, F, G, A, B

Amin 1, 2, 3b, 4, 5, 6b, 7b
Amin A, B, C, D, E, F, G

replace the wrong notes in Amin with correct ones please. i want to get it right & clear.


That's correct
#18
Quote by steven seagull
You cannot "switch from minor to relative major" unless you change the chords you're playing over.

It's the biggest myth in guitar playing and it's been around as long as I can remember...and it's bollocks


that's because of the root note i guess...
#19
Quote by jsepguitar
It seems like the confusion relates to the difference between a scale pattern and an actual scale. You can play an A minor "scale pattern" over a progression that is C-F-G, but it's not actually A minor, it's C major. The tonic would be the C note and the melody would resolve to C, not A.

You would never call a C-F-G progression and Am progression, so why would you call the scale Am?



Hmmm I think this guy is right. I'll check up more on it. Thanks for dispeling incorrect notions.
#20
soo.............uh im left here a little confused hahaha

but until this all gets completely figured out and resolved, i`ll just leave the Am scale to chill by itself haha
#21
Well since Cmaj and Am have the same notes, you can use the Am scale pattern and Am pentatonic shapes to solo over the C progression.

Also, people often throw modes into random discussions, but it is definitely not necessary here. BUT, since the I chord here is C, which is featured the Cmaj, Gmaj, and Fmaj scales, you can also use the notes from those as accidentals (the F#, the Bb, making your solo have Lydian and Mixolydian inflections) over the first chord.
This is one of the best ways to add non-diatonic (not part of the scale) notes into your solos, to make them more interesting.

Feel free to also see what other scales your other chords fit into, so you can find what other accidentals will sound nice over the rest of the progression.

Note that throughout all of this, you are not soloing in anything other than C major, because the chord progression is in C maj.
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#22
Quote by evolucian
Jimmy Page did... he went from E minor pent to C#minor pent in the space of two bars, same progression... or are we not allowed to talk about him?

***And I know my reply was not in the context that yours was ***

No, it wasn't in context, so why''d you post.

AND, it was false information anyway. The chord progression is all in the same key. He just change the position and note choice of his solo!
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#23
Changing position doesn't change the scale you're using.
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#24
But that's not switching to the relative minor then is it? That's two completely different scales - it's got nothing to do with what was being discussed.
Actually called Mark!

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#25
Quote by Ribcage
Well since Cmaj and Am have the same notes, you can use the Am scale pattern and Am pentatonic shapes to solo over the C progression.

Also, people often throw modes into random discussions, but it is definitely not necessary here. BUT, since the I chord here is C, which is featured the Cmaj, Gmaj, and Fmaj scales(I should have put that he could use these pentatonic scales's), you can also use the notes from those as accidentals (the F#, the Bb, making your solo have Lydian and Mixolydian inflections) over the first chord.
This is one of the best ways to add non-diatonic (not part of the scale) notes into your solos, to make them more interesting.

Feel free to also see what other scales your other chords fit into, so you can find what other accidentals will sound nice over the rest of the progression. (and I should have put that he should find out which other pentatonics sound good over each)

Note that throughout all of this, you are not soloing in anything other than C major, because the chord progression is in C maj.

Otherwise here's where I answered his latter question, and your post 28 answered the former. So I guess the real question is: TS, are you happy with our answers and do you understand them?

And honestly Yevo, in retrospect my post 29 was a pretty butthurt, baseless, and unnessessary post. I think I was just mad cause you cause you got really mad at me for refuting your post 22, even though in that conversation I was technically correct. I just didn't really see where your post was coming from.

EDIT: Call me Brett, by the way.
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Last edited by Ribcage at Aug 15, 2009,
#26
post 28 kinda confused me a bit, but i guess the 2 questions im left with is, could i change scales that im soloing in every chord change? just to know, and how did you know that Em pentatonic goes over C, is there a formula like the relative minor scale or the circle of fiths to go with that?

and just to clear things, the Em pentatonic would start on the 9th fret of the low E right?
#27
Quote by a0kalittlema0n
post 28 kinda confused me a bit, but i guess the 2 questions im left with is, could i change scales that im soloing in every chord change? just to know, and how did you know that Em pentatonic goes over C, is there a formula like the relative minor scale or the circle of fiths to go with that?

and just to clear things, the Em pentatonic would start on the 9th fret of the low E right?


Yes you can change scales over different chords

If you know the scale, then you can work out the chords that fit that scale; if you have that knowledge then you can tell what scales work over certain chords.

Em pentatonic starts on an E.
#28
So much misleading information in this thread it's unbelievable.

To anyone reading this thread, over 50% of the posts are completely incorrect written by people who have just learned about it themselves and decided to post.

Listen to Steven Seagull & Myshadow46_2, they seem to be the only ones putting accross the correct info (that I have noticed).

Cmaj is not Am, they share the same notes but you play either over a chord progression not both, you cannot 'switch'. When you 'switch' down to Am, all you are doing is playing Cmaj in another position. It all depends on the chords under it, if the progression resolves to Cmaj then you are using the Cmaj scale, if it resolves to Am then you are using the Am scale.

You 'can' change to use a different scale over each individual chord, known by some as playing the changes, however it's takes a lot of practice to get anything which sounds anyway decent from this method. If you don't take long enough playing on each individual chord, to build a mood then your melody can sound disjointed and a bit off.
Last edited by Helpy Helperton at Aug 17, 2009,
#29
My apologies... I thought I was helping... clearly not. Come skeletor... off to castle grayskull... hi ho... hi ho... (after the removal of my damning evidence... hopefully someone got a use out of it.)
Last edited by evolucian at Aug 17, 2009,
#31
I'd like to point out that the reason you cannot switch between A minor and C major over the same chord progression is not because it's a rule, it's about the way your brain perceives music.
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