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#1
I would like the musician's perspective behind it. I mean I understand the whole variety and stuff. But why are there topics every day about them? There are plenty of other ways to add variety to music and different sounds, so why this one? Why do we never see topics about adding rhythmic variety or use of nonchordals or anything nearly as often?
#3
Most of the mode threads here are people asking about modes. It's because of: 1) Guitar books that have no idea what they're talking about. 2) Famous guitarists that have no idea what they're talking about.

Most people don't understand modes, and most people won't ever use them.
#4
People think they are the Holy Grail of sounding good. Just learn a mode pattern and you'll sound different and creative. It doesn't work that way.
#6
well i don't think the regulars here are all that big into'em in general. it usually seems to be people who don't even know the basics about music theory are the ones asking about modes (maybe for their e-peen? i dunno....). subsequently i can use improper terminology with my friends ie "yeah that bit is in E phrygian" but they know i mean "i used the collection of notes that would pertain to E phrygian" i wouldn't ever teach it to someone like that
#7
I never heard that about MT, but I only use modes because they are scales and it's easier for me to adjust my mode position and not worry about all the variable names of the scales.
#9
Quote by Damius
I never heard that about MT, but I only use modes because they are scales and it's easier for me to adjust my mode position and not worry about all the variable names of the scales.

modes are not scales, you're one of the people i was referring to . i suggest starting with the MT stickied threads to get started in the right direction if you want to learn modes.
Last edited by z4twenny at Aug 14, 2009,
#10
hmmmm... interesting. Mostly because they heard about it and ask and get replies. Also that through their trials of playing, some people suggested it because they just started using it, and the guy saw a hell of a lot of unanswered queries on MT and thought he'd ask his own only to be bombarded by people who shun him and give negative feedback for asking inane questions and then have an argument (breathe)....

Mostly because they would like to know what the fuss is all about... but no-one really answers them... do they? No-one breaks it down for them. No-one pats em on the back letting them rest easier that night. If everyone is so pro, perhaps a decent answer to their queries in the first place might cease the bombardment instead of looking down on them.

***To answer the original question regarding rhythmic variety, that is a valid question and worthy of an insiders look... until it's on its own in the forum as a question, it may never get answered****

***Post number 13 started war... but he's Pestilence isn't he? Or was it Death? can't remember****
Last edited by evolucian at Aug 14, 2009,
#11
Ok, guess I dont know what MT is. I was thinking you meant some school.
Each mode corresponds with a scale. Ionion=major scale and you get the idea.
#12
dont confuse the dude with nonsense, he is trying to learn to play some solos. Learn the modes and screw the scales is what I say. Even though they are the same thing when it all comes down to it. IMO
#13
Quote by Damius
I never heard that about MT, but I only use modes because they are scales and it's easier for me to adjust my mode position and not worry about all the variable names of the scales.


we have so many mode threads because of people like this who don't even know what modes are and think they do.


edit: to the double post above me: no, modes are not scales, that's the kind of bullshit we're talking about. and MT is an abbreviation for the fourm we are currently in. Musician Talk
Last edited by The4thHorsemen at Aug 14, 2009,
#14
Hey while we are on this;

If I were to play a blues progression in E, and use the E, A and B major scales with a flat 7th over the corresponding chords. Would I refer to the scale simply as a major scale with a flat 7th, or as the mixoloydian scale?

Whilst people may point out the technicalities with it not being a modal progression, I am still using the scales appropriate to each one.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#15
I'd go with mixo sound, personally. Dunno what the experts here would go for
#16
Quote by branny1982
Personally, i blame people making quick bucks out of 'guitar books'

It is very easy to fill a book with mode 'patterns', misleading people all the way to the bank.


This is a good point. Modes have been marketed for quite some time. Books, instructional videos by shredders.... ect.

Also, let's face it, those big fancy words are alluring.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 14, 2009,
#17
Quote by branny1982
Personally, i blame people making quick bucks out of 'guitar books'

It is very easy to fill a book with mode 'patterns', misleading people all the way to the bank.

Quote by GuitarMunky
This is a good point. Modes have been marketed for quite some time. Books, instructional videos by shredders.... ect.

and lets face it, those big fancy words are alluring to a person who's primary goal is to be known as a "good" musician".


Shhhh.... I'm about to publish mine
#18
Quote by evolucian
Shhhh.... I'm about to publish mine

cool.

I'm working on some mode lessons as well. For the person with the proper foundation, modes do offer more colors to work with and are worth studying.


To me the problem is simply a matter of people getting into something before they are ready, and often for the wrong reasons.


Branny had a great point though. I'll never forget my friend, who had only been playing for a short time was all fired up about modes after reading some 80's shredders advice about how everyone should know them. (can't remember who.... coulda been Freidman, Gilbert... or anyone from that crowd). I feel those players did market modes, and that it is a contributing factor to the reason alot of guitarists want to learn about modes (often pre-maturely)
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 14, 2009,
#19
Yeah man, I agree. When I first came across modes, I was like "What the hell? All those friggin scales just to make something sound nice"

Now there is a con in learning modes, which actually is a very big pro. You learn 7 little box shapes which "magically" transform your playing... but in essence you've been tricked into learning the major scale across the entire fretboard... which, lets face it... NO new student is willing to do... ever!

Only later did I stumble on the fact that keys are interchangeable over specific chords by playing the "wrong" key over a chord but found it sounded awesome. Hence the Dorian sound over minors became my favourite.
#21
People use the word mode to mean different things, and that gets everyone confused. People very often think they can write modal progressions and that causes a great deal of confusion because they don't understand why it's not actually modal. But people also often use the word 'modes' when writing or improvising melodies, it is used to describe the notes that can be used (or they feel can be used) over a passage or chord, and has been taken from the way jazz players use the term. Which I think confuses the issue a lot.

I do think though that many people get confused with modes because they're told by books and famous people and whatever that they're important, but that is only meant as a way of thinking about scales when improvising... and then they're told by others that modes are only used in modal progressions, and that just confuses the issue further because they're told a lot about modes but can't distinguish between the two usages of the word.
#22
Yeah Sam, I agree... although I did put up some modal progs for people to get used to the sound of a mode a week or two back, can't remember. I did come across something strange when I played over a few of the major ones. Even though they were using C major, the C minor pentatonic and C Blues worked amazingly well over them too... something which I found odd but very interesting. Odd because of the conception of definite clashes on paper but in sound it was amazing. Guess its an ear thing. Might clash for someone else though.
#23
I think it's just like any music theory topic where everyone thinks the way they understand it is the only right way to go about thinking about it.

Most of the guys here that seem to have the classical approach to music theory go with the mode =/= scale. In fact they don't even teach modes to pianists until very high up in their grades.

Whereas most of the real 'players' I know go with the more jazz approach keeping it simple and easy to use over changes on the fly.
#24
Quote by AlanHB
Hey while we are on this;

If I were to play a blues progression in E, and use the E, A and B major scales with a flat 7th over the corresponding chords. Would I refer to the scale simply as a major scale with a flat 7th, or as the mixoloydian scale?

Whilst people may point out the technicalities with it not being a modal progression, I am still using the scales appropriate to each one.
I wonder the same thing sometimes.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#25
Quote by branny1982
Personally, i blame people making quick bucks out of 'guitar books'

It is very easy to fill a book with mode 'patterns', misleading people all the way to the bank.



YEAH +1

i think i am going to do it myself

for reals though so much money in that stuff
song stuck in my head today


#26
the real morons will argue till their blue in the face about certain facts, modes/scales/chords dont matter if you have no ear. Develop your ear (train it)
#28
Quote by z4twenny
modes are not scales, you're one of the people i was referring to . i suggest starting with the MT stickied threads to get started in the right direction if you want to learn modes.


talking about misleading people...

this guy is a dunce so ill explain it for you, the word mode (in this instance) means "in relation to the diatonic", so modes aren't scales only whilst the word is used in a verbal conversation.

however what most people, rightfully, know as "modes" (i.e. relative modes of any other scale) such as dorian, lydian, lyd dom etc are SCALES

if you struggle to understand modes i have a simple solution: don't listen to z4twenny
Originally Posted by jmac72187
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#29
Quote by Archeo Avis 2
if you struggle to understand modes i have a simple solution: don't listen to z4twenny
EDIT: Wait a second! Archeo Avis 2 was actually right



.
Last edited by Nietsche at Aug 15, 2009,
#30
It's because pretentious sells to kids, and thus it's very rewarding to make a pretentious all knowing music theory/guitar book.

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
#31
Branny and Munky have made some great points. Modes have been sort of blown up by guitarists. Even if modes are a universal thing, applied to all music I bet my left testicle that if I did a google search for "modes" and "music" the first link would be a guitar link. There seems to be a "guitaristic" obsession with modes and that modes are the holy grail when it comes to improvising which isn't exactly true.


Also, don't want to start an argument in the thread, so if anyone wants to take it up hit me with a PM. Modes are definitely scales.
#33
Quote by Damius
I never heard that about MT, but I only use modes because they are scales and it's easier for me to adjust my mode position and not worry about all the variable names of the scales.

what.. the.. ****
#34
I think the mystique behind modes is that intermediate musician percieve that as being some sort of advance form of theory, which will make them superior by knowing them. Applying however, is a completly different story...
Quote by Night
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#35
IMHO at least half of the mode threads are started by people who've read/watched some lesson that refers to scale positions by mode names, and think they need to understand modes just to play the major scale all the way up the neck.

Half the other are started by people who think modes will magically enable them to become really creative and sound like they are fantastic players.

Half the others are started by people who think that they sound really clever if they say they understand modes.

The rest are probably genuine questions.
#36
There are some interesting points here for sure.

I completely understand modes, however I've never had much opportunity to use them other than in a forced situation to get the idea of the changes made to the major scale so i can hear the differences and the ''mood'' that they create.
I think you guys are totally on the money with the word ''mode'' is a mystique and used in the wrong context alot.

Sat in a session situation, if i heard a chord progression i certainly aren't going to go jumping in with lydian sharp 5. Good ol pentatonic does the job amazingly well xD

However there are occasions where modes are a good alternative to add colour to the music. I think players like Satch and Vai typically use modes when soloing because it's just part of their sound. Espcially Vai who incorporates alot of lydian, he certainly doesn't do it just to sound knowledgeable, he digs the sound and the vibe it creates. I think this is what guitarists should be looking at, the actual sound of it and not using fancy names for scales just for the sake of it.

If it sounds good, it sounds good !
#37
Quote by Zanon
There are some interesting points here for sure.

I completely understand modes, however I've never had much opportunity to use them other than in a forced situation to get the idea of the changes made to the major scale so i can hear the differences and the ''mood'' that they create.
I think you guys are totally on the money with the word ''mode'' is a mystique and used in the wrong context alot.

Sat in a session situation, if i heard a chord progression i certainly aren't going to go jumping in with lydian sharp 5. Good ol pentatonic does the job amazingly well xD


Umm, maybe you should look at those modes again. What if the chord progression was a modal chord progression where the pentatonic wouldn't fit?

The problem is that modes can refer both to scales or modal music which incorporates those scales. Most people will refer to the former as a mode, and not ever find out about the modal chord progressions, other people will say is a mode and that the scale is not a mode.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#38
Quote by AlanHB
Umm, maybe you should look at those modes again. What if the chord progression was a modal chord progression where the pentatonic wouldn't fit?
The beauty of the major and minor pentatonics is that they are modally neutral. The major pentatonic contains neither the fourth nor the seventh, so it works over Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian progressions. The minor pentatonic contains neither the sixth nor the ninth, so it works over Aeolian, Dorian, and Phrygian. (As always, Locrian is a pain in the ass.)

Quote by AlanHB
The problem is that modes can refer both to scales or modal music which incorporates those scales. Most people will refer to the former as a mode, and not ever find out about the modal chord progressions, other people will say is a mode and that the scale is not a mode.
Those aren't separate entities.
#39
Quote by evolucian

Now there is a con in learning modes, which actually is a very big pro. You learn 7 little box shapes which "magically" transform your playing... but in essence you've been tricked into learning the major scale across the entire fretboard... which, lets face it... NO new student is willing to do... ever!


FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

I WUZ TRICKED THE HOLE TIEM

Quote by zhilla

IMHO at least half of the mode threads are started by people who've read/watched some lesson that refers to scale positions by mode names, and think they need to understand modes just to play the major scale all the way up the neck.

Half the other are started by people who think modes will magically enable them to become really creative and sound like they are fantastic players.

Half the others are started by people who think that they sound really clever if they say they understand modes.

The rest are probably genuine questions.


thats like... three halves?
Last edited by WishfulShredder at Aug 16, 2009,
#40
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Those aren't separate entities.


The locranian then reveals a flaw in your theory - it doesn't work.

What then would you call it if I used a major scale with a flat 7th (same as the mixoloydian) over a blues progression, changing the scale for each underlying chord?

A lot of people here claim that it wouldn't be a mode, because the blues is not a modal progression.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
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