#1
Okay, this isn't gonna be my usual kinda thread, this is more of a serious one as it has to do with an essay I have to write.

In World War 2, Hitler dreamt of a United Europe, based out of Berlin with Germany as the leader of the new Europe. He wanted a modern day Holy Roman Empire and nearly succeeded..

Anyways.

After the war, documents were captured basically describing the plans for a "fourth reich" and important doctors, engineers, writers, architects, etc, were to disappear into the woodwork and help plan for this return.

Now fast forward 60 years.

The European Union is rising as a world superpower and who else is at the forefront of its internal politics but Germany.

Did Hitler's vision come true? Allbeit in a less racist way? Did the formation of the EU help pave the way for a "4th Reich" if the wrong people ever start pulling strings in the Parliament?

This link kinda overviews the creation of the EU starting with Nazi Germanys vision and then the initial planning beginning 6 years after the war and their downfall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_European_Union#Pre-1945:_The_idea_of_Europe

Discuss. Sorry there's no lulz. I think this is my first serious thread.
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#3
The EU isn't really like an imperial country though, is it?

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#4
what are you talking about. hitler wanted a more prosperous west and he would use the slavs in the east as slave labour. nothing like that has happened.


.....wait
#5
No. Plus, the whole idea for a Holy Roman Empire was Mussolini's idea, which is why the pope backed him (albeit, in a down-low manner).

Plus, Europe isn't that unified. It can't get the UK, which is possibly the most important country in Europe, and doesn't even make an attempt to try and unify Eastern Europe.
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#6
Quote by SteveHouse
The EU isn't really like an imperial country though, is it?



Yeah I know, but like I was saying, isn't it basically a blue print for an imperialist empire? The currency, borders, laws etc are slowly all being absorbed into one.
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#8
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#9
only more democratic and with fewer powers than one united government. its more of a freely associated group of countries that have agreed to some uniform rules so as to be of greater influence in a globalized economy. thats nothing like hitler's third reich (im pretty sure he was third, not fourth)

edit: to TS: in case you were wondering what i thought of your reasoning, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hitlerum
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#10
Quote by spiderjerusalem
only more democratic and with fewer powers than one united government. its more of a freely associated group of countries that have agreed to some uniform rules so as to be of greater influence in a globalized economy. thats nothing like hitler's third reich (im pretty sure he was third, not fourth)

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#11
Quote by spiderjerusalem
only more democratic and with fewer powers than one united government. its more of a freely associated group of countries that have agreed to some uniform rules so as to be of greater influence in a globalized economy. thats nothing like hitler's third reich (im pretty sure he was third, not fourth)



Yeah I know he was third, basically I have to discuss whether or not the EU is a template of what he wanted. I am aware the laws, freedoms etc, are vastly different, but if the wrong people became in charge of the EU, made a few changes to policy and law, they would have the entire populace at their whim. Do you guys think it will progressively keep united as one in almost all things until it becomes a major world superpower (pretend an international emergency or crisis caused a hardline fascist to take charge due to threats toward the country or some other incident).

tl/dr - is it a beginning stage to Hitlers vision of a United Europe, that could potentially be disastrous?
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#12
Quote by spiderjerusalem
only more democratic and with fewer powers than one united government. its more of a freely associated group of countries that have agreed to some uniform rules so as to be of greater influence in a globalized economy. thats nothing like hitler's third reich (im pretty sure he was third, not fourth)

i think the 4th reich is meant to be EU that is coming not what Hitler and them were.
and i think that this is going to turn out like that EndWar game
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#13
Wait. Your previous threads were supposed to be funny?
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#14
Quote by Dwight Schrute
Yeah I know he was third, basically I have to discuss whether or not the EU is a template of what he wanted. I am aware the laws, freedoms etc, are vastly different, but if the wrong people became in charge of the EU, made a few changes to policy and law, they would have the entire populace at their whim. Do you guys think it will progressively keep united as one in almost all things until it becomes a major world superpower (pretend an international emergency or crisis caused a hardline fascist to take charge due to threats toward the country or some other incident).

tl/dr - is it a beginning stage to Hitlers vision of a United Europe, that could potentially be disastrous?


read future of freedom by fareed zakaria. in the intro he talks about how fragile democracy is and how easily it can slip into dictatorship. for example, egypt and zimbabwe nowadays, among others. hitler was popularly elected too. he got 36% of the national vote, with the runnerup getting something like 22% (americans dont usually understand these sortof numbers, because theyre used to two candidates)
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#16
The EU is more of an economic thing in my opinion. They are a bit far from an empire. The only issue I see would be if there were some alliances formed like in world war 1 which would drag a lot of countries that are allied together into a big conflict, but i think the world learned a bit about that after the first world war.
#18
Quote by Mistress_Ibanez
Germany don't control Europe. Brussels (Belgium) do if anything.


Brussels is where the EU's bases, it doesnt mean that Belgium has more power than the other states.

Germany may be the industrial center of the EU but I dont think the way the EU is has any relation to the 4th Reich. Even if the EU became a single power block power would still mainly be in the hands of Britian, France and Germany. And most likely that would maintain some sort of balence toward the center of politics rather than the far right or left.

Even in world crisis its unlikely that many European states would willingly support an extreme form of govermnet. It would require attitudes across Europe to change, not impossible but not easy either.

If i were you TS I would argue that theres far to much emphasis put on Nazism in relation to Germany history and international relations.
#19
Europeans control the European parliament etc., by democratic and proportional representation. But each member state has the right to opt out of any EU policy that conflicts with its own interests/constitution. A good example is Ireland's omission from any form of EU controlled armed forces, as Ireland's constitution has always included a clause on military neutrality.
15 of the 26 nations have adopted the Euro as currency despite varying economic situations. So some countries have to work hard to maintain equality in economics. The other nations have independent and free-floating currencies as a natural correction to economic fluctuation. Countries like Norway, though not EU members, enjoy a special status on many economic matters with the EU.
Europe's strengths are its flexibility and willingness to compromise among its members. This is the major difference between what has evolved and what was the dream of Hitler and Mussolini.
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#20
Quote by Weeping_Demon7
Plus, Europe isn't that unified. It can't get the UK, which is possibly the most important country in Europe, and doesn't even make an attempt to try and unify Eastern Europe.


I smell a bit of the attitude Americans also can display... the "we are the best and who the f*ck are you" attitude
And Eastern Europe is in a lot of debt, so if they join the EU, it can result in major increase of the taxes, to pay for the debt of other countries... you have to be on equal footing (socially, economically, etc) to have a profitable relationship.

But OT, TS don't know if I would go that far.. Germany has a lot of power in the European Union, but don't forget France... I think this is an equal relationship that sustains itself...
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#21
the EU is never going to be a superpower.its too divided because its member countries are so diverse.i think it will never go far beyond and economic community
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#22
I'd be happy if Germany ruled the world. Free mettwurst and heavy lager for all!

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#23
ITT: confusion between the EU and the EEC.

Potentially the EU does have the framework for an imperial system but the only way I can see that happening is if the elected representatives in the EU parliament all hold the same political views. While it is possible that this may happen in the future politics is too divided at the moment for a 'fourth reich' to have any realistic chance of success. Essentially european democracy could be undermined in the same manner it is in a single state but it would be far more difficult.

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I'd be happy if Germany ruled the world. Free mettwurst and heavy lager for all!

AWWWW HELL NAW. If I'm going to celebrate German rule I'm going to do it with the superior currywurst and properly engineered motor vehicles.
Last edited by blynd_snyper at Aug 24, 2009,
#24
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#25
Quote by Dwight Schrute
Yeah I know, but like I was saying, isn't it basically a blue print for an imperialist empire? The currency, borders, laws etc are slowly all being absorbed into one.


What like the US?
Your statement shows a typically incorrect notion that the European Union is a Federation, it's nothing of the kind as of yet, the reason being a large number of member states are unwilling to submit to an external government.

Also, there are two main bodies at play here, the European Union and the European Community; the first is a multi-governmental organization (like the UN), the second is a federalist organization (imagine the US federal government without direct executive power).

Furthermore, there are treaties signed outside the "umbrella" of the EU and EC, like the treaty that created the Euro; obviously it is incorporated into the functioning of those bodies but the initiative comes from each member nation.

As for the absurd allegations that the EU is a Nazi conspiracy to create a European Empire... The idea of a unified Europe is an old one, but the beginnings of the EU are traceable to post-WWII England and France, and fears of a Soviet takeover of Europe. If the Nazis were going to try and create a European Empire, they'd lay low for a few decades, not a few weeks.
#26
Quote by blynd_snyper

AWWWW HELL NAW. If I'm going to celebrate German rule I'm going to do it with the superior currywurst and properly engineered motor vehicles.

Currywurst? I'm pretty sure you just invented that now.

Germany without doubt has the best food in the world. Meat, potato and pickled cabbage washed down with pitchers of strong beer. So much win it hurts.


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#27
they have a law in germany that forbids bad beer.its called the purity law or something
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#28
BTW, just to dissuade notions of German dominance of EU bodies, see article 205º nº2 of the Treaty of Rome; it statutes the value of the votes of the representatives in the European Council. Germany has 29, just like France, Italy and the UK, with Spain and Poland following closely behind with 27.

(Germany does have the most delegates in the Parliament, but that's because they're by far more populous than any other nation.)
#29
OP.
I am going to jump to a conclusion and say you are trying to connect Nazi Germany.
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....





If this is not the case OP then please point it out.

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#30
Quote by Zero-Hartman
Currywurst? I'm pretty sure you just invented that now.

Germany without doubt has the best food in the world. Meat, potato and pickled cabbage washed down with pitchers of strong beer. So much win it hurts.



You take a bratwurst, cover it in a curry sauce and curry powder. If you don't have the sauce you serve it with spicy mustard, ketchup and of course there are fries. Currywurst. Infact they have a festival to celebrate it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKRHyEPLU8I (Sorry it's in German, basically they're just talking about how awesome it is.

Quote by Eggmond
they have a law in germany that forbids bad beer.its called the purity law or something

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EDIT:
This thread is now about awesome, underappreciated German food.
Last edited by blynd_snyper at Aug 24, 2009,
#31
Quote by blynd_snyper

You take a bratwurst, cover it in a curry sauce and curry powder. If you don't have the sauce you serve it with spicy mustard, ketchup and of course there are fries. Currywurst. Infact they have a festival to celebrate it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKRHyEPLU8I (Sorry it's in German, basically they're just talking about how awesome it is.


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EDIT:
This thread is now about awesome, underappreciated German food.


Awesome.

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#32
Worthy bump!

In South Australia we have a huge German colonial heritage, and it still exists in the town of Hahndorf. Best. Restaurants. Ever.

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#33
German food is so amazing it hurts. i've spent the last few weeks travelling through germany and central europe (hungary, slovakia, austria and the czech republic), where the food is all more or less the same. Amazing meat and sausages, a ****load of delicious potato, fantastic dumplings, sauces so rich and full of delicious flavour they blow your mind, delicious sauerkraut and other vegetables so tasty and soft that you wonder how they can otherwise be so bland and litres and litres of amazing beer.

And, maybe because I spent so much time walking as well, but I have never felt so healthy.
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#34
Not really. We're still all sovereign nations.
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