#1
I just want to check if I understand chord progression notation right.

I think the roman numerals correspond to intervals.
An interval between G and C is a perfect fourth and if G is I, IV represents C.
So I is a unison, VI is a sixth and V is a perfect fifth. Is a tritone a IV and a half?
How would progressing from a G chord to C# be represented?
Would IV and a half be G to C#minor?
How do you tell if a chord is minor or not with the progression thing?
Edit:
Just found out about the (o and +) signs used to indicate augmentd and diminished things. So it would be IVo or V+ I think. They are sort of like accidentals (# and b) right?
Last edited by Zombiechao at Aug 28, 2009,
#2
Usually roman numerals are used for the chords that a scale makes. So in C maj the basic chords are


I ii iii IV V vi vii*
C Dm Em  F  G Am B*


Notice that when the chord is major I've capitalised the numerals, where as minor and diminished chords are lowercase.

Intervals are like the building blocks of music, they are used to construct scales and chords. You don't (to my knowledge) use roman numerals to represent them. A tritone is an augmented 4th. The G chord to C# chord notation will differ depending on the scale you are using.

A chord is minor if it consists of the 1, b3, 5 intervals.

Accidentals are notes used outside of a scale. For example If you were playing in the C maj scale and used an A# note, that would be an accidental because Cmaj scale doesn't have an A# in it. If you were playing in Dmaj and you played a C note that would be an accidental because Dmaj doesn't have a C in it.
Last edited by Myshadow46_2 at Aug 28, 2009,
#3
The interval would be b5 or #4, not written in roman as the above poster said...
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#5
You can also use b's and #'s to alter the roman numerals. For example, you could have a bVII chord. This just means you take the seventh chord, lower it a half step, and make it major. i.e. the bVII chord in C major would be Bb major.
#6
Quote by Zombiechao

Just found out about the (o and +) signs used to indicate augmentd and diminished things. So it would be IVo or V+ I think. They are sort of like accidentals (# and b) right?

An "°" indicates a diminished chord and a "+" indicates an augmented chord. So a C° would be a diminished triad. And they aren't like accidentals, they each represent a specific chord.
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#7
Quote by timeconsumer09
You can also use b's and #'s to alter the roman numerals. For example, you could have a bVII chord. This just means you take the seventh chord, lower it a half step, and make it major. i.e. the bVII chord in C major would be Bb major.

First b5 and #4 are enharmonic... So I don't understand that arguement.
Second you usually just don't just flat the root of anything you want, what you refered to was modally borrowing.
If you are the key of G and building a chord a chord on C#, or Db, that chord would not be in the key in G major (because C# and Db aren't found within the key). So you would have to label it as it is functioning.... 2nd dom, passing tone etc...
(I don't know if this will actually help the TS because this is a little advance but if it will help keep on reading.)


if it was a secondary dominant; such as a vii*, or a V7 but I will use vii*, leading to I. So we have a C#* chord which has the notes C#, E, and G. And this vii* chord has a lot of tension really wants to resolve to its I chord, which is D. Remember C#* is not in the key of G, but D is. C#* is a chord in D major, it is the vii*. We just used the C#* chord to shift more focus to the D chord, which is the V chord in G. So we a dominant chord out of the key to point to a chord in the key. That is called a secondary dominant. You would label it as a vii*/V since it is the vii* of the D which is the V of G...
#8
Quote by AF.Mice Elf.ro
First b5 and #4 are enharmonic... So I don't understand that arguement.
Second you usually just don't just flat the root of anything you want, what you refered to was modally borrowing.
If you are the key of G and building a chord a chord on C#, or Db, that chord would not be in the key in G major (because C# and Db aren't found within the key). So you would have to label it as it is functioning.... 2nd dom, passing tone etc...
(I don't know if this will actually help the TS because this is a little advance but if it will help keep on reading.)


if it was a secondary dominant; such as a vii*, or a V7 but I will use vii*, leading to I. So we have a C#* chord which has the notes C#, E, and G. And this vii* chord has a lot of tension really wants to resolve to its I chord, which is D. Remember C#* is not in the key of G, but D is. C#* is a chord in D major, it is the vii*. We just used the C#* chord to shift more focus to the D chord, which is the V chord in G. So we a dominant chord out of the key to point to a chord in the key. That is called a secondary dominant. You would label it as a vii*/V since it is the vii* of the D which is the V of G...


^ I don't think he was arguing, but rather offering a suggestion. His description of using borrowed chords (like a bVII), is fine. It's not the same thing as secondary dominants.
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 28, 2009,
#9
Quote by AF.Mice Elf.ro

Second you usually just don't just flat the root of anything you want, what you refered to was modally borrowing.

Flattening or raising a scale degree is really not uncommon at all when talking about harmony. As you said it will usually be in forms of secondary dominants or substitutions but not always.
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#10
Okay, now to actually answer your question..

You would notate a G major - C# minor progression as I - #iv. Depending on how it's used, you could also notate it I - bv (then you'd probably also want to call it Dbm instead of C#m). For example, G - C#m - D would be notated as I - #iv - V. With a little twist, G - D - C#m would be better notated I - V - bv, in my opinion, and better written as G - D - Dbm. It has to fit what you're doing with it.
#11
If you are talking about the tritone, then it is augmented 4th (#4), not a diminished 5th (b5).


Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't think there was any distinction in 12 tone equal temperament. I'm fairly sure if untempered a tritone is exactly half an octave, #4th is slightly sharper than the tritone and b5 is slightly flatter. But when tempered they're all enharmonic so why a #4th not b5th?
#12
Quote by Sam_Vimes
Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't think there was any distinction in 12 tone equal temperament. I'm fairly sure if untempered a tritone is exactly half an octave, #4th is slightly sharper than the tritone and b5 is slightly flatter. But when tempered they're all enharmonic so why a #4th not b5th?

correct.
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#13
Quote by Myshadow46_2
I didn't say the interval would be notated as roman numerals.


He didn't say you did; he said you said it would not be, agreeing with your correction to the OP.
#15
Quote by Sam_Vimes
Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't think there was any distinction in 12 tone equal temperament. I'm fairly sure if untempered a tritone is exactly half an octave, #4th is slightly sharper than the tritone and b5 is slightly flatter. But when tempered they're all enharmonic so why a #4th not b5th?


that depends on what key you're in. If it's the 5th note in the scale it's a b5, if it's the 4th note it's a #4

for example, Lydian is 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 1

and Locrian is 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 1
Last edited by The4thHorsemen at Aug 29, 2009,
#16
Quote by Eastwinn
Okay, now to actually answer your question..

You would notate a G major - C# minor progression as I - #iv. Depending on how it's used, you could also notate it I - bv (then you'd probably also want to call it Dbm instead of C#m). For example, G - C#m - D would be notated as I - #iv - V. With a little twist, G - D - C#m would be better notated I - V - bv, in my opinion, and better written as G - D - Dbm. It has to fit what you're doing with it.


This, although you can't notate G D C#m as I V bv because Db is the b5 of G, and C# is the #4.