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#1
I already had a discussion going on in a thread called 'Power Chords', which got completely off-topic and was then about intervals. The original question got answered, and now I decided to create a thread about intervals. So, here goes:

I want to learn about intervals. When I didn't know much music theory yet I read The Crusade and studied the interval list. I didn't understand the relevance of it by then, but now I do understand part of it. My theory knowledge as of now:
- I know almost all the notes on the fretboard, EXCEPT the D and G strings.
- I know the minor scale, including the tonality that defines the minor scale, the interval pattern (WHWWHWW), and the vertical scale pattern. This is my most used scale.
- I know the major scale, including the tonality that defines the major scale, the interval pattern (WWHWWWH), and the vertical scale pattern. I don't use this one as much
- I know the minor pentatonic scale, including the tonality that defines the minor pentatonic scale, i DON'T know the interval pattern, but i DO know the vertical scale pattern. This is my second most used scale.
- I know how to construct a Circle of Fifths, but i have not memorized completely the sharps and flats in each key.
- I know how to get a relative minor or major
- I know how to construct a triad
- I know how to make harmonies with octaves

I know how to use basic intervals (only 1 3 5, not minor 3rd and major 3rd and perfect 5th and so on) to create triads. That is about everything I understand completely about intervals. I want to learn about intervals because I want to find out about chords that are not major/minor but things like Sus4, Sus2, Sus2Add9, and so on. I also want to learn about exotic scales, such as Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, Gypsy Scale, Hungarian Minor, and medieval scales (i don't know the names of those, does anyone here know them?).
People in the Power Chords thread explained some things to me, which I now vaguely understand, but still i'm kind of confused about intervals.

Please explain intervals to me.
#2
I'm wondering how you know all that stuff without knowing the notes on the D and G strings....

Other than that, I can't help you.
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#3
If you know the major scale, you know intervals. All a major scale is, is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. Natural minor is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7. Major pentatonic is 1 2 3 5 6, and minor pentatonic is 1 b3 4 5 b7.

I don't mean to be cynical of your approach to learning theory but it seems that you're over-complicating it.

Most basic chords are triads. You have major (1 3[major 3rd] 5[perfect 5th]) and minor (1 b3[minor 3rd] 5[also a perfect 5]).
Sus4, Sus2, and Sus2Add9: "Sus" stands for suspended, it takes the third and replaces it with another interval (4th or 2nd). "Add" is exactly that, you add that interval. 9 is the same as 2, except it is an extension, meaning that it is beyond the octave of the root.

In my opinion you shouldn't worry about exotic scales until you understand the basics.

I hope this all makes sense to you now.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#4
This is going to be bits and pieces from my other posts condensed into one. I will try to explain in the most straight forward easiest way possible. I will always explain exactly what I am doing and exactly what the symbols I will use mean. I will do my best to not make things overly complicated.

Here it goes:

------------------

An interval simply put is the distace between two notes.

As you should all know there are a total of 12 notes.

If we start with A it would look like this. The names of the intervals are next to it.


A   = 	Root
A#  = 	Minor 2nd
B   = 	Major 2nd
C   =  	Minor 3rd
C#  =  	Major 3rd
D   =  	Perfect 4th
D#  = 	Augmented 4th \ Diminished 5th (**Depends on context**)
E   = 	Perfect 5th
F   = 	Minor 6th
F#  =  	Major 6th
G   = 	Minor 7th
G#  =	Major 7th
A   =	Octave

**Edit: Thanks to Doive for pointing out that I missed talking about how the augmented 4th and diminished 5th are enharmonic. meaning they both sound the same but are named differently depending on the context of the song. His post touches up on some things I missed a few posts below this one.

For the sake of ease I referred to everything as a Diminished 5th. Through my post. I'm too lazy to edit it all.**


Now to understand this better lets see it horizontally on the fret board.

We will use the open A string as our root note.

m = minor
M = major
P = perfect
D = diminished
O = octave
# = what interval number it is (obviously)


Visual Fretboard

intervals:
e|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
B|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
G|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
D|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
A|-m2-|-M2-|-m3-|-M3-|-P4-|-D5-|-P5-|-m6-|-M6-|-m7-|-M7-|-O--|
E|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|

notes:
A|-A#-|--B-|-C--|-C#-|--D-|-D#-|--E-|--F-|-F#-|--G-|-G#-|-A--|



As you can see, a minor 2nd is 1 fret away from a Major 2nd (1 note up aka half step).
And a Major 2nd is 2 frets away from a Major 3rd (2 notes up aka whole step step)


**From here on out I will be using the intervals as numbers only and I will not be writing m, M, P, D, or R anymore to explain what it is. That was simply to help you visualize what intervals are.**

This is how I will be referring to intervals from here on out:

b = flat (which simply means lower the note by 1 fret)

1 =	root 	
b2 =	minor 2nd
2 =	major 2nd
b3 =	minor 3rd
3 =	major 3rd
4 =	perfect 4th
b5 =	diminished 5th
5 =	perfect 5th
b6 =	minor 6th
6 =	major 6th
b7 =	minor 7th
7 =	major 7th
8(1) =	octave


Now how do intervals tie into scales? Well let me explain.

If you dont already know, the formula for creating the major scale is R - W - W - H - W - W - W - H

r = root
w = whole step = 2 frets apart (on the same string)
h = half step = 1 fret apart (on the same string)


Well if you remember our visual fretboard a whole step away from A (root) would be B (major 2nd) and a whole step from B would be C# (major 3rd). and a half step from C# would be D (perfect 4th). etc etc etc

Well thats all fine and dandy if your on one string horizontally but lets go vertical for a bit.

I'm now going to chart out the major scale using just the intervals numbers (refer to chart right above this if your confused)

**Major Scale Interval Chart**

e|---|-7-|-8-|---|---|---|
B|---|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|
G|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|
D|---|-6-|---|-7-|-8-|---|
A|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|
E|---|---|-1-|---|-2-|---|


^^^^^^^^
This chart from here on out with be our main reference tool. remember it. go back to it if you need to.

Now notice how I didnt pick a key or say that I'm going to do this with A. well thats because this pattern repeats itself regardless of what your root is. If your (1) was on the 5th fret of the 6th string and you played the above pattern you would be doing an A major scale. If your (1) was on the 7th fret of the 6th string and played the above you would be playing a B major scale. etc etc.

Now I'm sure you've all heard that the Major scale is what every other scale is derived from. Well if you think of it in terms of intervals you will see why.

Lets look at it this way: (We'll go back to using A)


Notes:		A - B - C# - D - E - F# - G# - A
Steps:		R - W - W - H - W - W - W - H
Intervals:	1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8


^Well thats the A major scale for sure

Now if we wanted to turn that a major scale into the natural minor scale using ONLY the intervals in the chart above we would use this formula.

Major Scale = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Natural Minor = 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8

This would result in:


Notes:		A - B - C - D - E - F - G - A
Steps:		R - W - H - W - W - H - W - W
Intervals:	1 - 2 - b3 - 4 - 5 - b6 - b7 - 8


Now there are lots of formulas for scales that will tell you which interval to use in the scale. You can go look them up to find out all the different ones other then the two I have shown you.

Now lets come to the finally stretch of this.

What are intervals?
Like I said at the top, they are the distance between two notes on the fretboard. Its simply another way of looking at it. The pattern I showed above for the major scale using intervals is the same for whatever key you are in. Whether your root is an F# or an A it doesnt matter the intervals will follow that pattern above always. If you extend the pattern across the entire fretboard you will start to see different places you can play from.

Intervals are not something magical, they dont come from no where, and once you figure out the pattern behind them they are a piece of cake.

So now. If I were to ask you what the Minor 3rd of C is you should now be able to tell me based on all of the above. And that my friends is what an interval is, as simple and straighforward as I can put it.


Note: Now my chart only covers if the root is on the 6th string (low E). But the pattern is still the same if you shift down the the 5th string (A) the only change is that everything on the 2nd string (B) gets shifted up one fret.

Here you go:

pattern for major scale using intervals with 5th string as the root

e|---|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|-8-|
B|---|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|---|
G|---|-6-|---|-7-|-8-|---|---|---|
D|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|---|---|
A|---|---|-1-|---|-2-|---|---|---|
E|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|


Fun stuff!

Now intervals can be used to form scales, chords and things like that using that chart I made

for example:

Chords:
major triad = 1 3 5
minor triad = 1 b3 5
major 7 = 1 3 5 7
minor 7 = 1 b3 5 b7
dom 7 = 1 3 5 b7
min7b5 = 1 b3 b5 b7

Now like before each of those numbers refers to an interval. Using my Interval chart above, you can now form these chords any way you please.

Same goes for scales and arpeggios:
Major Scale = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Natural Minor = 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8

(for arpeggios play only these intervals in a scale pattern)
Major 7th arpeggio = 1 3 5 7
Minor 7th arpeggio = 1 b3 5 b7
Dom 7th apreggio = 1 3 5 b7
Min7b5 apreggio = 1 b3 b5 b7

Like I said you can find more formulas all over this site that will help you.


And now I'm spent. So let me know if there is anything you didnt understand. This whole thing was designed for anyone who wants to read it, no one specific.


Please if you have anything you would like to add or point out please do

Edit: Heres a special treat the entire Major scale in terms of intervals across the fretboard with A being the root note

I replaced all the 8's with 1's for simplicities sake

e|---|-6-|---|-7-|-1-|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|
B|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|-1-|---|-2-|
G|---|-1-|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|
D|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|-1-|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|
A|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|-1-|
E|---|-6-|---|-7-|-1-|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|
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Last edited by Dragonis at Sep 2, 2009,
#5
Quote by druggietoad2k5
I'm wondering how you know all that stuff without knowing the notes on the D and G strings....
This reminds me; you have no need to "know" the notes, just a way to figure them out. There are twelve notes, (C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B), so just take that D as the open string. The first fret would be D# (or you could call it Eb), the second, E, and so on. It's pretty simple really. The more used to this you are the more recognizable the notes will become. Don't memorize them. There's no need.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Sep 2, 2009,
#6
I'm gonna wait and see what Dragonis says - he's doing a better job of explaining this stuff than I am lol - but in the meantime have you watched Freepower's theory vids? The first one does a good job of explaining how to find intervals on the neck. Might help.

link to Freepower's vids: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=58DA70A2123C71CD&search_query=freepowerug

I wouldn't worry about exotic scales until you've got intervals and the major scale completely straight in your head - purely because you might spend hours trying to understand different scales now, but when you've got the major scale nailed and can realte other scales back to that it will take you a fraction of the time to understand them. Pretty much any scale you'll ever need can be derived from the major scale.

Edit: Once you can comfortably form a major chord scale (thats building a chord off each degree of the scale) and play around with it, look at how the natural minor is related to the major scale, then look at how the pentatonics are related to the major and minor scale. When that makes sense, then look at your exotic scales, and you should find you can pretty easily understand them, construct them in any key and form chord progressions that work with them.
Last edited by zhilla at Sep 2, 2009,
#7
Quote by food1010
This reminds me; you have no need to "know" the notes, just a way to figure them out. There are twelve notes, (C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B), so just take that D as the open string. The first fret would be D# (or you could call it Eb), the second, E, and so on. It's pretty simple really. The more used to this you are the more recognizable the notes will become. Don't memorize them. There's no need.


I know all the notes, I've been playing guitar and bass for nearly 10 years but i can't envisage playing without knowing them, now that I know them. It seems mad.

Saying that, I know nothing much about scales and modes barring the major and minor pentatonics so I probably sound like I'm talking crap.
Posted from Ubuntu.

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Quote by supersac
pretend its a woman
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#8
Quote by druggietoad2k5
I know all the notes, I've been playing guitar and bass for nearly 10 years but i can't envisage playing without knowing them, now that I know them. It seems mad.

Saying that, I know nothing much about scales and modes barring the major and minor pentatonics so I probably sound like I'm talking crap.
I was talking to TS, sorry for the misunderstanding. I quoted you because your post reminded me to tell TS that. My apologies.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#9
its getting there. its a work in progress haha. sorry i'm taking so long. I'm actually spending a good bit of time to pay attention to detail
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#10
There should be a sticky thread where all of these theory questions can go. Anyone agree?
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#11
I'm going to use c major because it is simplest. so my notes are C D E F G A B C. Since you know a 3rd is 3 notes in the scale above the root and a 5th is 5 notes above the root - i'm going to assume you can guess that the 2nd is the 2nd note etc. These things are simple but good to clarify because i'm assuming you know them.

Intervals are really what make music. the important thing about music is not what sounds you make - but how they sound relative to one another. try this: play a D then an B. now play D A B. The B has a different feel the second time - that's because it's ascending from the A rather than descending from the D. That is what intervals are all about - relativity rather than absolute pitch.

first off - naming intervals:

The notes in a major scale all make either major or perfect intervals with the root. The 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th are major. The 4th and 5th are perfect. (saying why some are perfect and some major is a different question so i'll leave it for now)

in order construct diminished, minor and augmented intervals you need to move the intervals up or down by a number of semitones. in this pattern

Major:
...........diminshed.. - .......minor........... - .....major... - ..augmented
2 semitones down - 1 semitone down - initial note - one semitone up

perfect:
.........diminshed.. - ...perfect... - ..augmented
1 semitone down - initial note - one semitone up

e.g. G# is a 5th (to get to G) but 1 semitone above the perfect 5th so it is called a "augmented 5th" this is enharmonic (same pitch) to Ab, however Ab is a 6th (to get to A) but flattened 1 semitone so it is a "minor 6th"

If that made sense you're ready for the chord construction bit. If not ask again - i'll try and rephrase.

Chord construction is actually pretty simple once you can name intervals. "Sus" means you remove the 3rd and replace it with a major 2nd or perfect 4th [e.g. C = C E G -> Csus2 = C D E G]

putting a 6 at the end of a chord means add a major 6th (Am = A C E -> Am6 = A C E F#) it is also important to note that unless otherwise stated the minor/major ONLY applies to the 3rd - Am6 = Am (+6) NOT A (m6)

7ths after chords are played as dominant 7ths (a dominant 7th = minor 7th) (there is a reason i don't really remember fully as to why, other than convention) so a C7 is C E G Bb. if you want a major 7th the you MUST write C maj7 = C E G B

chords with numbers greater than 7 include dominant 7ths (minor 7th) for example C9 includes a 7th and a 9th (a 9th is one octave above a 2nd) so C9 = C E G Bb D

if you don't want to include a 7th you need to put an Add - so Cadd9 = C E G D

Diminished chords include root minor 3rd diminished 5th diminished 7th. so Cdim = C Eb Gb Bbb.

beyond this most chord construction is common sense pretty much.

as for exotic scales - they tend to be denoted by their variation from the standard scale. For example the hungarian minor is described as having a b3 #4 b6 which means you play the major scale apart from these variations. They usefulness is pretty limited though, wikipedia can only cite 2 people who use them (satch and danny elfman) :p

I'm going to come back and edit this probably cos i'm a bit tired and not sure i made my point properly. You seem to be picking up theory quite well in the past few months though well done :applause:
Keep at it!
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#12
bump for my post up top ^^^ I worked long and hard on it

@doive
Good post man, you touched on a couple things I didnt get to.

as far as 9th 11ths and 13ths go when it comes to chord construction

9 = 2's octave
11 = 4's octave
13 = 6's octave
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Last edited by Dragonis at Sep 2, 2009,
#13
Dragonis - nice post and very informative - but you didn't mention enharmonics really - i think it's important to point out an augmented 4th and diminshed 5th are the same in particular as they are commonly used but are different contextually.

I think you explained what intervals actually ARE better than me though
the more explanations the merrier!
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#14
Quote by doive
Dragonis - nice post and very informative - but you didn't mention enharmonics really - i think it's important to point out an augmented 4th and diminshed 5th are the same in particular as they are commonly used but are different contextually.

I think you explained what intervals actually ARE better than me though
the more explanations the merrier!


haha the only reason I didnt touch on enharmonics and things like that is because I didnt even think about it at the time.

I think you did a good job on touching up some of the places I missed though.
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#15
WOW! Thanks a lot, Dragonis, doive, zhilla, and food1010! I haven't studied all this information yet, but that's because I have to go to school in about an hour. I will, though, and from what I read I already understand more of it.
Last edited by robinlint at Sep 3, 2009,
#16
I felt that I should clarify a few things from Dragonis' and Doive's posts. Particularly chord construction. They gave you the basic formulas, so i figure I'll take it 2 steps (no pun intended) further. I'll add a few more formulas and tab them out to explain how they relate to the fretboard.

First we have a major triad: 1, 3, 5
Now, let's look at some of its possible positions on the fretboard. We won't worry about keys.

e-----------------2--
B------------2----4--
G-------2----3---4--
D--2----4---4-------
A--4----5------------
E--5-----------------

Now for the minor triad shapes...

e-----------------2--
B------------3----3--
G-------2----3---4--
D--2----3---5-------
A--3----5------------
E--5-----------------


Now for some more interesting shapes... Sus4
e-----------------2--
B------------2----5--
G-------2----4---4--
D--2----5---4-------
A--5----5------------
E--5-----------------

Sus2...
e-----------------2--
B------------2----2--
G-------2----1---4--
D--2----2---4-------
A--2----5------------
E--5-----------------

Now for Xm11 (note the X refers to the root, which in this case is not the same as the bass note [lowest note]).
e-------------6-----
B--------4---2-----
G--4----2---4-----
D--2----5---4***
A--5----5**-------
E--5*--------------

*root note is B **root note is E *** root note is F#

I think i couldn't hurt do delve into some major and minor 7ths either. Let's start with the major7.

e-------------0-----
B--------2---2-----
G--2----2---3-----
D--2----4---4-----
A--4----5----------
E--5----------------

Now to minor7

e-------------1-----
B--------2---3-----
G--2----2---3-----
D--2----3---5-----
A--3----5----------
E--5----------------

Notice how on all of these charts/tabs I just modified the original major and minor triads instead of presenting all the open and barre chords? This is because A) I'm lazy and B) I wanted to demonstrate the way the intervals are modified in each new type of chord. I hope this helped. Maybe later I'll add some more types of chords. If you want to see ALL the different shapes for these chords, I'm sure there's something here on UG.

EDIT: Maybe later after I finish painting the house I'll show you how intervals can be used to create different voicings of your good 'ol CAGED chords (and perhaps explain those if you aren't already aware of them).
Last edited by canvasDude at Sep 4, 2009,
#17
Quote by canvasDude

Now for Sus4Add9.


Under what circumstance would you ever call a chord sus4add9? example:

G B D is G major

G C D is Gsus4

G C D A is "Gsus4add9", but I think it would be much better to just call it Am add11
#18
Quote by timeconsumer09

G C D A is "Gsus4add9", but I think it would be much better to just call it Am add11


You mean Am11.
#19
Quote by deHufter
You mean Am11.

EDIT 2: F MY LIFE. Am11, yes. I have no idea what i was thinking.
Last edited by timeconsumer09 at Sep 3, 2009,
#20
Quote by timeconsumer09
Am11 implies there being a 7th and 9th as well.


Nope, Am11 implies a b7, the 9 can be omitted.

-edit- @ edit: B is 9, D is 11 and F is 13, we're still in A minor right?
Last edited by deHufter at Sep 3, 2009,
#24
Quote by Dragonis



A = Root
A# = Augmented unison
Bb = minor 2nd
B = Major 2nd
C = Minor 3rd
C# = Major 3rd
Db = Diminished 4th
D = Perfect 4th
D# = Augmented 4th
Eb = Diminished 5th
E = Perfect 5th
F = Minor 6th
F# = Major 6th
Gb = Diminished 7th
G = Minor 7th
G# = Major 7th
A = Octave





Fixed. It should also be noted that other intervals exist such as Bbb which would be a diminished 2nd, or E# which would be a augmented 5th.
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Sep 3, 2009,
#25
OK, I'm gonna feel really stupid but here it goes. One of the examples I gave was Asus4add9, which contains A(1), D(4), E(5), and B(9). So you're saying this would be a Bm11? But that would mean it would be B(1), D(b3), F(4/11), and F#(5). But F and F# aren't in my chord. I did some research and I have seen some chords named sus4add9. Could you please explain so I can get the feeling like a retard part of this over with?

EDIT: http://jguitar.com/chordsearch?chordsearch=ASus4Add9 This chord chart depicts an Asus4add9 chord such as the one I tabbed out.
Last edited by canvasDude at Sep 3, 2009,
#26
OK, I think i figured it out. Would it be called an Asus2sus4? Because it replaces the third with both a 2nd and a 4th (even though the 2nd is extended). Here's a link with a diagram of my chord by that name. http://jguitar.com/chord?root=A&chord=Suspended+2nd+Suspended+4th&bass=A&labels=none&notes=sharps&gaps=0&fingers=4

The previous link only presented it under that name because I searched it under that name (therefore was incorrect).
#27
Quote by canvasDude
OK, I'm gonna feel really stupid but here it goes. One of the examples I gave was Asus4add9, which contains A(1), D(4), E(5), and B(9). So you're saying this would be a Bm11? But that would mean it would be B(1), D(b3), F(4/11), and F#(5). But F and F# aren't in my chord. I did some research and I have seen some chords named sus4add9. Could you please explain so I can get the feeling like a retard part of this over with?

EDIT: http://jguitar.com/chordsearch?chordsearch=ASus4Add9 This chord chart depicts an Asus4add9 chord such as the one I tabbed out.


A Bm11 needs an F in it, otherwise its not a minor chord.

Given those notes id say E7sus4.

And a tip, don't trust any of these websites that figure out chords for you because they are usually wrong and it's much more reliable to work them out yourself.
#28
Quote by canvasDude
OK, I think i figured it out. Would it be called an Asus2sus4? Because it replaces the third with both a 2nd and a 4th (even though the 2nd is extended). Here's a link with a diagram of my chord by that name. http://jguitar.com/chord?root=A&chord=Suspended+2nd+Suspended+4th&bass=A&labels=none&notes=sharps&gaps=0&fingers=4

The previous link only presented it under that name because I searched it under that name (therefore was incorrect).


We said Am11 not Bm11. Which it is. There would need to be a good context for it to be called what you called it.
#29
Quote by griffRG7321
Fixed. It should also be noted that other intervals exist such as Bbb which would be a diminished 2nd, or E# which would be a augmented 5th.



Thanks everyone for adding in anything I didnt mention.

The reason I did not delve into any of that stuff in my OP was because TS's original question was just "what exactly are intervals" he didnt understand how they related to everything else he already knew. So I tried to just keep it very straight forward and as non-complex as i could explain it in a way that he would hopefully go "ohh ok now I get it" So I tried to relate it as much as I possibly could about things he already knows.

All that other stuff is delving a bit deeper and might be confusing to someone at first till they have a pretty decent grasp on the subject. Hopefully now with the help of this thread he will start to understand it all.

Good thread.
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#31
Quote by timeconsumer09
We said Am11 not Bm11. Which it is. There would need to be a good context for it to be called what you called it.


But when you figured it to be Am11 you said my original chord was a variation of a G chord. In fact it was a variation of an A chord.

And according to what DeHufter said an Am11 would need a b7 (which this chord does not). Same with the E7Sus4 mentioned by GriffRG7321. If someone would look at my tabs or the post in which I laid out all of the contained notes (only 4 notes to be exact), they could probably help me name this chord properly.

I'll try and do some thinking about it to.
#32
OK, so i reviewed every type of chord I know and did a lot of pondering on each (I know it's been like two minutes, but I typed my previous post and forgot to post it while I was researching/thinking).

So, my chord contains A[1], D[4], E[5], and B[9/2]. Now here's why it's not an Am11. To be an Am11 it would need to contain a b3 and a b7, neither of which are present in this chord. But, could it be called an E7sus4 even though E is not the root/bass? Sorry griffRG7321 for saying it couldn't b4. I misread it to be Emaj7sus4. Anyways, it does contain all of the same notes. What do you guys think?
#33
Quote by canvasDude
But when you figured it to be Am11 you said my original chord was a variation of a G chord. In fact it was a variation of an A chord.

And according to what DeHufter said an Am11 would need a b7 (which this chord does not). Same with the E7Sus4 mentioned by GriffRG7321. If someone would look at my tabs or the post in which I laid out all of the contained notes (only 4 notes to be exact), they could probably help me name this chord properly.

I'll try and do some thinking about it to.


A C G D are the notes in your chord (I just rearranged them)

A is the root. C is the minor third. Thus, we know we have some variation of an Am chord. G is the b7. D is the added 11th. Therefore, we have an Am11 chord. 1 3 7 11. The fifth is omitted, as it often is in extended chords.

IT IS Am11!!!

If you don't think it is, you need to look more at chord construction. I can't be any more clear than what I just posted.

Quote by canvasDude
OK, so i reviewed every type of chord I know and did a lot of pondering on each (I know it's been like two minutes, but I typed my previous post and forgot to post it while I was researching/thinking).

So, my chord contains A[1], D[4], E[5], and B[9/2]. Now here's why it's not an Am11. To be an Am11 it would need to contain a b3 and a b7, neither of which are present in this chord. But, could it be called an E7sus4 even though E is not the root/bass? Sorry griffRG7321 for saying it couldn't b4. I misread it to be Emaj7sus4. Anyways, it does contain all of the same notes. What do you guys think?


The chord we're discussing is the chord I used as an example when you talked about a sus4add9 chord. I used Gsus4add9 as an example. The rest is explained above.

IT WAS SOLELY FOR THE PURPOSE OF SHOWING YOU THERE IS NO NEED TO CALL A CHORD SUS4ADD9

Edit: And no, I didn't use any of the chords from your post. As long as the chords have the same properties, the principle stands. sus4add9 is not probable unless under certain circumstances. Am11 is a FAR more common chord, thus the 'shape' you labeled as 'sus4add9' should really be a 'Xm11' shape with the 5th and 9th omitted.
Last edited by timeconsumer09 at Sep 3, 2009,
#34
A C G D are the notes in your chord (I just rearranged them)

A is the root. C is the minor third. Thus, we know we have some variation of an Am chord. G is the b7. D is the added 11th. Therefore, we have an Am11 chord. 1 3 7 11. The fifth is omitted, as it often is in extended chords.

IT IS Am11!!!

If you don't think it is, you need to look more at chord construction. I can't be any more clear than what I just posted.


The chord we're discussing is the chord I used as an example when you talked about a sus4add9 chord. I used Gsus4add9 as an example. The rest is explained above.

IT WAS SOLELY FOR THE PURPOSE OF SHOWING YOU THERE IS NO NEED TO CALL A CHORD SUS4ADD9

Edit: And no, I didn't use any of the chords from your post. As long as the chords have the same properties, the principle stands. sus4add9 is not probable unless under certain circumstances. Am11 is a FAR more common chord, thus the 'shape' you labeled as 'sus4add9' should really be a 'Xm11' shape with the 5th and 9th omitted.[/QUOTE

I see, and thank you for making that point. I see we had a little misunderstanding. When looking back at my original post, I see the reason I stupidly typed sus4add9. I originally intended to type sus2add9 (yes I realize they are the same note an octave apart, which is why I wanted to use it to demonstrate my points) , and then tab out their shapes. Of course, I typed the wrong name and (after checking over my previous work) proceeded to tab out the wrong chord. This of course makes me feel even dumber than I did when I read your post (if possible). I think I'll double check my tabs/nomenclature next time I try to help someone.
#35
@timeconsumer09

I see, and thank you for making that point. I see we had a little misunderstanding. When looking back at my original post, I see the reason I stupidly typed sus4add9. I originally intended to type sus2add9 (yes I realize they are the same note an octave apart, which is why I wanted to use it to demonstrate my points) , and then tab out their shapes. Of course, I typed the wrong name and (after checking over my previous work) proceeded to tab out the wrong chord. This of course makes me feel even dumber than I did when I read your post (if possible). I think I'll double check my tabs/nomenclature next time I try to help someone.
#36
Thank you, guys, for all of that information! I haven't yet read the whole thread, though, because I was doing other things (such as doing homework, playing songs on guitar, and playing videogames). Sorry about that. It's weekend now, though, and i'll check out everything you guys have written in this thread. And I see you've had a discussion about a chord? :P
#37
I STILL haven't learnt intervals.. However, I have learnt how to figure out parts of songs by ear . I don't understand all the information in this thread, although I do understand some of it. I'm confused about the different kinds of intervals, and what kind of intervals are described here. For example, I know of these types:
- RWWHWWWH (Major scale interval map)
- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (Major scale intervals)
- 1 2 3 4b 5 6 7 (Major scale with a flattened 4th)
- Minor 2nd, Major 2nd, Minor 3rd, Major 3rd, etc. (The pattern that is listed in The Crusade and in this thread and which I still don't understand how to apply)
- Flattened 3rd, sharpened fifth (in chords)
- Melodic interval (an interval from the note you are currently playing. So if I were playing a melody that goes F# G# A, when playing the F the interval would start from there (and it would be the root note), when playing the G# the interval would start from there, and so on.
- Harmonic interval (Two notes played together)

So it appears intervals are used in a lot of different contexts. (An interval map with whole steps and half steps, a major scale map described in numbers, the distance of a note from the root of a chord (within the scale), and as harmonic intervals).
All these types are named the same, simply under the term 'intervals'. When someone says '4th', it could mean either playing the 4th note in the scale correspondent to the root note of the chord, or play the 4th note away from the note you are currently playing, or the 4th note in a scale.
I don't understand how they are used, how the The Crusade pattern relates to it all, and when intervals are used chromatically and when they are used in a scale.
For example, the The Crusade pattern is chromatic. But when looking at chord intervals, the 2 isn't the next fret, but the next note in the scale, and the 3rd the 3rd note in the scale. While chromatically, it would be fret 1, fret 2, fret 3.
And are melodic intervals chromatic to the root note or within a scale?

Can someone please explain this all to me? In the mean time, i'll read some more of the posts in this thread.
Last edited by robinlint at Sep 12, 2009,
#38
There are 12 notes in an octave, therefore 12 intervals you need to know. I'll give some examples that hopefully clears up some of your questions.

The major scale:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Contains these intervals in relation to the root,
Prime, major second, major third, perfect fourth, perfect fifth, major sixth and major seventh.
All these intervals is in relation to the tonic, but there are more intervals within the scale. For example the interval between the third and fourth scale degree is a minor second.

A major triad:
1 3 5
Consists of a tonic, a major third and a perfect fifth. Again those are in relation to the root as a triad is formed of two stacked thirds, in this example a major third and a minor third.

You mentioned scale formulas using whole and half steps. A half step is another for a minor second, and a whole step is another name for a major second.


I hope this helped.
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#39
Quote by 7even
There are 12 notes in an octave, therefore 12 intervals you need to know. I'll give some examples that hopefully clears up some of your questions.

The major scale:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Contains these intervals in relation to the root,
Prime, major second, major third, perfect fourth, perfect fifth, major sixth and major seventh.

If I memorise this, how would I apply this? I have memorized all the 12 intervals.


All these intervals is in relation to the tonic, but there are more intervals within the scale. For example the interval between the third and fourth scale degree is a minor second.

The interval between the third and fourth scale degree is in relation to the third note, right?


A major triad:
1 3 5
Consists of a tonic, a major third and a perfect fifth. Again those are in relation to the root as a triad is formed of two stacked thirds, in this example a major third and a minor third.

You took the root note, and went a few notes up. How did you know how many notes you had to go up to get a major third? I know that the intervals exist (that's about all I understand about them), but not the distance between the root and the intervals.
The major triad is built out of the scale, but you said they were stacked thirds and that's in chromatic context again.. So there's two types of those, diatonic and chromatic?
So, I should learn the distance between root and interval for all the 12 intervals? For example, learn how to get a major 3rd from a root, or a perfect 4th, and so on? And this is in chromatic context?
And then there's the diatonic intervals, which are like counting all the notes in the scale up to the octave? So, when playing a major scale, the diatonic intervals would go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7?
And to find out what kind of interval it is (major, minor, perfect, diminished), you need to use the chromatic intervals?

Why is it that every lesson on UG about intervals intermingles diatonic and chromatic intervals, and doesn't explain that they're different things?



You mentioned scale formulas using whole and half steps. A half step is another for a minor second, and a whole step is another name for a major second.

Thanks. From the note currently played? So, Root -> major second higher -> major second higher -> minor second higher -> major second higher -> major second higher -> major second higher -> minor second higher?


I hope this helped.

It did . Thanks.
#40
Quote by robinlint
If I memorise this, how would I apply this? I have memorized all the 12 intervals.


The interval between the third and fourth scale degree is in relation to the third note, right?
Yes it's the interval between the third and fourth scale degree.

Quote by robinlint

You took the root note, and went a few notes up. How did you know how many notes you had to go up to get a major third? I know that the intervals exist (that's about all I understand about them), but not the distance between the root and the intervals.
A major third is four semitones. This is where knowing the major scale helps. The interval from the root to the third scale degree in the major scale is a major third.

Quote by robinlint

The major triad is built out of the scale, but you said they were stacked thirds and that's in chromatic context again.. So there's two types of those, diatonic and chromatic?

Nothing chromatic about that. A triad is always two stacked thirds. Take a C major triad which contains the notes, C, E and G. The root, the major third and the perfect fifth. The interval between the C and the E is a major third, while the interval between the E and the G is a minor third.

Quote by robinlint

So, I should learn the distance between root and interval for all the 12 intervals? For example, learn how to get a major 3rd from a root, or a perfect 4th, and so on? And this is in chromatic context?

Yes you should learn all twelve intervals. Intervals are just intervals and not in themselves chromatic. That depends on how you use them.

Quote by robinlint

And then there's the diatonic intervals, which are like counting all the notes in the scale up to the octave? So, when playing a major scale, the diatonic intervals would go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7?
And to find out what kind of interval it is (major, minor, perfect, diminished), you need to use the chromatic intervals?

Again intervals are in themselves chromatic. You should know all the twelve intervals, and that the major scale contains the intervals, tonic, major second, major third, perfect fourth, perfect fifth, major sixth and major seventh.

Quote by robinlint

Why is it that every lesson on UG about intervals intermingles diatonic and chromatic intervals, and doesn't explain that they're different things?

I'm guessing they are teaching the intervals in relation to the major scale, but as I said an interval in itself is neither diatonic or chromatic.

Quote by robinlint

Thanks. From the note currently played? So, Root -> major second higher -> major second higher -> minor second higher -> major second higher -> major second higher -> major second higher -> minor second higher?

Yes.


Hope this helps.
Quote by thsrayas
Why did women get multiple orgasms instead of men? I want a river of semen flowing out of my room to mark my territory.

You can play a shoestring if you're sincere
- John Coltrane
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