#1
So im trying to jam over a small progression i made up

Em7add 11 C#m7add11 D#7 (each chord is a dotted quarter note in length roughly)

Firstly im assuming these are the right names for the chords as its in the key of D#. Im not sure if all the chords are in key ive tried to work it out but need confirmation (edit- the c# should be diminished..so what key is that c#madd11 in?)


Secondly ive tried soloing over the progression using D# major but it doesnt sound right over all the chords and ive tried using F dorian i think as well as melodic minor and the bebop scale but nothing fits. Sound im looking for is greg howe sort of style.

Should i be using different scales/notes over each chord). The problem is the chords are in quick succession.
Last edited by Arbity at Sep 2, 2009,
#2
i would use diferent scale over each chord
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#4
^if in D#maj use D#maj. if you're in F dorian use F dorian. Don't mix them up they are different scales - this is not a modal progression.

Well the Em isn't going to sit nicely with the D#major scale that's for sure...

EDIT:
your chords contain:
E G A B D
C# E G# F# B
D# F## A# C#

you could just use those notes over the chords, there's enough in each chord to make a decent melody. There is no single scale that will fit them all, that's for sure (you're using 10 out of 12 notes :P).

would considering the E chord as an b(E#) get you somewhere since E# is in D# major and E isn't?
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Last edited by doive at Sep 2, 2009,
#5
To me, the D#7 seems like a tritone sub of an A7.

Em7add11 and C#m7add11 could also be inversions of A7sus4 and F#sus4.
If that were the case, it would be a V-iii-bII.

It also seems to resolve to the Em7add11 to me. However, maybe I'm just being crazy :\
Last edited by KillahSquirrel at Sep 2, 2009,
#6
Quote by KillahSquirrel
To me, the D#7 seems like a tritone sub of an A7.

Em7add11 and C#m7add11 could also be inversions of A7sus4 and F#sus4.
If that were the case, it would be a V-iii-bII.

It also seems to resolve to the Em7add11 to me. However, maybe I'm just being crazy :\



I thought subs only concerned changing the type of chord eg E to E9
#7
Those are chord extensions. Substitutions are outright substituting the chord for another one.

EDIT: Oh, and to answer your question, A mixolydian might work if what I said before is right.
Last edited by KillahSquirrel at Sep 2, 2009,
#8
Quote by KillahSquirrel
Those are chord extensions. Substitutions are outright substituting the chord for another one.

EDIT: Oh, and to answer your question, A mixolydian might work if what I said before is right.



so with subs...eg in C major you could sub C major with Dm Em F G Am Bdim?
#10
No, those are just regular diatonic chords. Substitutions use chords outside of the key. For example, a secondary dominant substitution means you take any chord - say Gmaj - and you find the V chord of that, which would be Dmaj. If Gmaj was our V chord in our key of Cmaj, Dmaj wouldn't normally fit, but using it as a secondary dominant to segue into G maj is very possible.

Tritone substitutions are another kind of substitution, and are very popular in jazz. Basically, we take the V7 chord in the key, and move that chord up or down a tritone. Our G7 (V7) chord would become an Ab7. Though it doesn't fit diatonically, it fits because if you take a look at the tritones in both G7 and Ab7 (the third and seventh notes in the chords), they are the same.

Hopefully that made sense. Sorry if it doesn't, I wasn't sure how to explain some of the things.
#11
Quote by KillahSquirrel
To me, the D#7 seems like a tritone sub of an A7.

Em7add11 and C#m7add11 could also be inversions of A7sus4 and F#sus4.
If that were the case, it would be a V-iii-bII.

It also seems to resolve to the Em7add11 to me. However, maybe I'm just being crazy :\


How would it be a V iii bII progression? The first chord is minor, meaning it would be a v, not a V. I don't get how this even makes sense. If the Em7add11 is the v chord, how is the D#7 a tritone sub for an A7? The tonic would be A if the v chord was E. And if the tonic is A, the bII7 chord would be Bb7.

Your post confused me, sorry if this does not make sense. I'm quite sleepy.

Quote by KillahSquirrel
Tritone substitutions are another kind of substitution, and are very popular in jazz. Basically, we take the V7 chord in the key, and move that chord up or down a tritone. Our G7 (V7) chord would become an Ab7. Though it doesn't fit diatonically, it fits because if you take a look at the tritones in both G7 and Ab7 (the third and seventh notes in the chords), they are the same.

Hopefully that made sense. Sorry if it doesn't, I wasn't sure how to explain some of the things.


That is not tritone substitution. The tritone sub for a G7 is a Db7. G7 has the notes G B D F. The tritone is between the B and F. Db7 has the notes Db F Ab Cb. The tritone there is the same F to Cb (Cb being enharmonic to B, so it's the same tritone).

You don't "move the chord a tritone". It's about finding another chord (in the case of the V7, the sub happens to be the bII7) that has the same tritone that will pull back to the root (or whatever other chord you're trying to pull to with your 7 chord).

EDIT: @ the bolded part of the quote. Ab7 is Ab C Eb Gb. The tritone there is between C and Gb. G7's tritone is between F and B. Not the same thing. A half step off, actually. Which means that's a no-go.
Last edited by timeconsumer09 at Sep 3, 2009,
#12
How would it be a V iii bII progression? The first chord is minor, meaning it would be a v, not a V. I don't get how this even makes sense. If the Em7add11 is the v chord, how is the D#7 a tritone sub for an A7? The tonic would be A if the v chord was E. And if the tonic is A, the bII7 chord would be Bb7. Your post confused me, sorry if this does not make sense. I'm quite sleepy.

Sorry, I didn't quite make it clear. I meant that instead of them being Em7add11 and C#m7add11, they could be the inversions A7sus4 and F#sus4, respectively. It just seemed to make more sense to me.

That is not tritone substitution. The tritone sub for a G7 is a Db7.

You're right, sorry that was a mistake, I meant Db7.

You don't "move the chord a tritone". It's about finding another chord (in the case of the V7, the sub happens to be the bII7) that has the same tritone that will pull back to the root (or whatever other chord you're trying to pull to with your 7 chord).

Yeah, I didn't mean to make it sound like you just move it a tritone. Poorly explained by me.

Next time I'll try and check over my stupid mistakes/explanations
#13
Quote by Arbity
So im trying to jam over a small progression i made up

Em7add 11 C#m7add11 D#7 (each chord is a dotted quarter note in length roughly)

Firstly im assuming these are the right names for the chords as its in the key of D#. Im not sure if all the chords are in key ive tried to work it out but need confirmation (edit- the c# should be diminished..so what key is that c#madd11 in?)


Secondly ive tried soloing over the progression using D# major but it doesnt sound right over all the chords and ive tried using F dorian i think as well as melodic minor and the bebop scale but nothing fits. Sound im looking for is greg howe sort of style.

Should i be using different scales/notes over each chord). The problem is the chords are in quick succession.


if they are quick you should solo using arpeggio tones not scales , if you pick three notes , lets say
B C# E ( d:9 d:11 g:11 )
they will work over the 1st two chords
the D#7 is enharmonically the same is Eb7
so lets flatten the three notes (Bb C natural and Eb)
say on (d:8 d:10 and G:10 )
#15
It's a pretty strange bunch of chords.. doesn't fit into D# (Eb) though. I don't mean to tell you what to play, but it would make more sense and be easier to play over if you put an Amaj7 at the end, like Squirrel said, using the Eb7 as a tritone sub. That would resolve it and not leave it hanging weird without an apparent tonal center.. and then if you changed your E from minor to major, it'd be diatonic and much easier to follow. But there's no harm in playing what you want to hear, so if you stick with it, just make your melodies emphasize the chord tones, or play arpeggios. Don't worry about a scale that will fit over it, because there isn't one. This type of thing you would have to follow chord by chord pretty much.
edit: in regards to confirmation if they are in key.. well, you'd have to look at #s as b's to make it easier (so you don't end up with double sharps). The Db(C#) wouldn't be diminished, because it's bVII of Eb. Diminished chords in a key always fall on the VII degree, so your diminished chord in Eb would be D. The Fbm11(E) chord wouldn't fall in key either because it's a bii. Diatonic keys have a minor chord on the ii degree, which would be Fm in Eb.
hope that clears it up a bit
Last edited by Ead at Sep 3, 2009,
#16
Quote by Ead
It's a pretty strange bunch of chords.. doesn't fit into D# (Eb) though. I don't mean to tell you what to play, but it would make more sense and be easier to play over if you put an Amaj7 at the end, like Squirrel said, using the Eb7 as a tritone sub. That would resolve it and not leave it hanging weird without an apparent tonal center.. and then if you changed your E from minor to major, it'd be diatonic and much easier to follow. But there's no harm in playing what you want to hear, so if you stick with it, just make your melodies emphasize the chord tones, or play arpeggios. Don't worry about a scale that will fit over it, because there isn't one. This type of thing you would have to follow chord by chord pretty much.
edit: in regards to confirmation if they are in key.. well, you'd have to look at #s as b's to make it easier (so you don't end up with double sharps). The Db(C#) wouldn't be diminished, because it's bVII of Eb. Diminished chords in a key always fall on the VII degree, so your diminished chord in Eb would be D. The Fbm11(E) chord wouldn't fall in key either because it's a bii. Diatonic keys have a minor chord on the ii degree, which would be Fm in Eb.
hope that clears it up a bit


It sounds good so it stays

I thought in Minor keys diminished chords land on II? Im playing Aminor scale on the keys just now and B would be diminished.
#17
Yea, I meant major key really for the viidim. The strange chord is just a comment.. you can't deny that lol.. as I said, keep it, if you do, just play arpeggios.