#2
Bastards.
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#3
looks like they got more then they bargined for
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sorry
#6
Its some pretty screwed up shit, but what else is there to say about it?
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#10


'Sup guys, I work for the CIA now.
The DNA results show that Jeremy Kyle is a nob.


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#11
Yup, pretty messed up.

Personally, I'm not shocked at all. If you have people torturing other people, you're going to have someone there to determine the most effective way of doing it.
#12
That's terrible... i suppose they're getting/got what they deserved.
#14
they knew they where ****ed if this got out, they deserve every bit of scrutiny
#15
Quote by Ed Hunter


'Sup guys, I work for the CIA now.
but at the story.



stratkat
#16
At least they had doctors there. Could you imagine if the people being totured got hurt and didn't have a doctor on hand to help them out?
I play guitar like a pirate with two hooks....so...uh...just call me Meathook! Yar!
#17
Quote by cokronk
At least they had doctors there. Could you imagine if the people being totured got hurt and didn't have a doctor on hand to help them out?
Oh of course, dying from your torture wounds or going septic is much worse than being kept alive to be tortured again the next day.

Unless you were being sarcastic.
#18
Quote by Ed Hunter


'Sup guys, I work for the CIA now.



Reductio ad Nazium!


Anyway...


Well, I guess it's not like they were cutting people open and removing their organs to see how long they could live without them, like the Nazis were. Just beating the hell out of them.
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#19
Doesn't surprise me. There have been calls for all of them to be struck off the medical register because doctors aren't supposed to be complicit in torture.
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#20
doctors actively monitored the CIA's interrogation techniques with a view to determining their effectiveness, using detainees as human subjects without their consent. The report concludes that such data gathering was "a practice that approaches unlawful experimentation".

Monitoring people and their behaviour, regardless of whether they are incarcerated is, in itself, not "unlawful experimentation". Any illegal, immoral, or unethical treatment of prisoners is the issue here.

Note the clever use of the word "approaches" so they can over-reach with their claims, but still not be lying.
Meadows
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#21
Quote by Inimical
Oh of course, dying from your torture wounds or going septic is much worse than being kept alive to be tortured again the next day.

Unless you were being sarcastic.


I play guitar like a pirate with two hooks....so...uh...just call me Meathook! Yar!
#22
Quote by SomeoneYouKnew
Monitoring people and their behaviour, regardless of whether they are incarcerated is, in itself, not "unlawful experimentation". Any illegal, immoral, or unethical treatment of prisoners is the issue here.

Note the clever use of the word "approaches" so they can over-reach with their claims, but still not be lying.

I would argue it is unlawful. You cannot perform social experiments of any kind without giving your subjects informed consent. Hell, even deception is not allowed. You can come under some pretty serious penalties for this kind of thing, and data collection of any kind without consent is most certainly unlawful.

If you are torturing someone and monitoring their behaviour and collecting information on it, I would say that's unlawful, unethical experimentation. Whether that data was put to use or not, they are conducting some sort of an experiment in the same vein as anything a laboratory psychologist would do, and they need to give informed consent to conduct those experiments so they are not sanctioned.
Last edited by Inimical at Sep 3, 2009,
#23
Welcome to real life.
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#24
Quote by Inimical
I would argue it is unlawful. You cannot perform social experiments of any kind without giving your subjects informed consent.
Monitoring =/= experimentation.

Read the entirety of my post, Junior.

Quote by Inimical
If you are torturing someone
Read the entirety of my post, Junior.
Meadows
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#25
Quote by SomeoneYouKnew
Monitoring =/= experimentation.

Read the entirety of my post, Junior.

Read the entirety of my post, Junior.
I did read the entirety of your post, no need to be so condescending.

Monitoring =/= experimentation, my issue here is with data collection. Lots of modern psychology experiments revolve around data collection. I don't know the details of what they were collecting, but simply recording things can count as experimentation. Sociologists do it all the time in naturalistic experiments where you have to tell the people you are monitoring that they are being monitored and you need to have their consent to do it.

The torture victims were being put into a precarious situation and then their behaviour was monitored and information was collected. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how that differs from experimentation in any way.

Yes, it approaches unlawful experimentation, but that's up to the discretion of whoever wrote the report. If it were me, I would most certainly call it unlawful experimentation.
Last edited by Inimical at Sep 3, 2009,
#26
Quote by Inimical
no need to be so condescending.
No need, but it's fun. And you make it so easy to do.

Quote by Inimical
I don't know the details of what they were collecting,
You don't need to know the details. That would only confuse you. Your role in this is to interpolate. Draw conclusions based on what the writer wants you to think, not on facts.

Quote by Inimical
If it were me, I would most certainly call it unlawful experimentation.
The writer has done well.
He has caused you to draw a conclusion he couldn't present as fact.

You have assumed your role in this process perfectly. Thank you for your compliance.
Meadows
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I wont be like those jerks who dedicate their beliefs to logic and reaosn.
#27
Quote by SomeoneYouKnew
No need, but it's fun. And you make it so easy to do.

You don't need to know the details. That would only confuse you. Your role in this is to interpolate. Draw conclusions based on what the writer wants you to think, not on facts.

The writer has done well.
He has caused you to draw a conclusion he couldn't present as fact.

You have assumed your role in this process perfectly. Thank you for your compliance.



I get your point, but that doesn't change the fact that this is unlawful. "Approaching" is bull****, this would not have passed any ethics board's approval and the AMA would have handed any other group of doctors their ass for this. Hell, people have been punished very severely for much less.

The writer has all of the facts anyone needs. The people were being monitored through torture without their consent. That counts as unlawful experimentation. You cannot monitor people for any reason without their consent unless you have it passed by an ethics board set up by the AMA. They didn't, and this is therefore unlawful.
Last edited by Inimical at Sep 3, 2009,
#28
Quote by Inimical
You cannot monitor people for any reason without their consent unless you have it passed by an ethics board set up by the AMA.
Now you're creating your own laws in your mind.
Meadows
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I wont be like those jerks who dedicate their beliefs to logic and reaosn.
#29
Ya, it's well establised the CIA's been doing human experimentation for decades. This is hardly the worst of it.
MK-ULTRA anyone?
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#30
Quote by Wulphy
Welcome to real life.


The omniscient 14 year old strikes gain!

*bows down in reverence*
My God, it's full of stars!
#31
Quote by SomeoneYouKnew
Now you're creating your own laws in your mind.


Really? I thought he was quoting from the article, you patronising tosser:

Human experimentation without consent has been prohibited in any setting since 1947, when the Nuremberg Code, which resulted from the prosecution of Nazi doctors, set down 10 sacrosanct principles. The code states that voluntary consent of subjects is essential and that all unnecessary physical and mental suffering should be avoided.

Quote by Ur all $h1t
Ya, it's well establised the CIA's been doing human experimentation for decades. This is hardly the worst of it.
MK-ULTRA anyone?


I preferred Street Fighter IV.
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#32
^
Street Fighter IV's boss fight is super cheap though.
Quote by Bloodavian
Its not about the Radio its about talent, the front man has a bigger vocal range than Micheal Jackson and he can sing from heavey metal to high pitched ...No.12 on the top 20 under rated guitarists of ALL TIME...etc

1-Bloodavian 0-Forkman.

^Fail^
#33
Quote by SomeoneYouKnew
Now you're creating your own laws in your mind.
No. It is absolutely illegal to monitor and collect information on people without their written consent.

If you are a medical practitioner who is monitoring people's health and behaviour, you must have their permission, detained against their will or not, to do this. This would never pass ethical boards because the benefits to the "participants" must outweigh the cost. Clearly, being tortured and having information recorded to advance torture practices does not outweigh the costs to the "participant."

If you are gathering information on someone, you must pass a very stringent guidelines so you don't, listen closely, run the risk of coming under legal scrutiny. In other words: GETTING YOUR ASS SUED.

"Approaching" is bull****, like I said, because there is absolutely nothing legal about this. The doctors should be stricken of their medical license and jailed. These are war crimes, as Meths pointed out. It is ethically and legally wrong.

Now, I was trying to have a sensible debate with you and you turned into a patronizing, condescending dickhead. I let it slide twice because it's just some prick on the internet, but people like you make it very difficult for anyone to talk about things on these forums. Grow up.
#34
Who cares, like the CIA is the only group doing this. I'm not saying that the acts of others sanctify your own, but there is a point if answers be needed.
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Last edited by Its So Easy at Sep 3, 2009,