#1
I always thought 12 tone rows were bs, until I was messing around and came up with an actually melodic sounding one on piano. Anyone else ever have any luck with 12 tone rows?

I have a recorded version of it with a rock groove under it on my profile.
Quote by bearded_monkey
Everytime I go into the guitar shop and ask for a G-String the shopkeeper always makes that TERRIBLE joke about it not being an underwear shop

So next time I go in I'm gonna ask for a thong
#2
What part of them did you think was bs? The whole point was that they weren't supposed to be melodic, or at least that's what Schoenberg wanted to achieve: that doesn't mean you can't create a melodic one, of course. I personally like writing melodic sounding ones (I find including 3rds, 5ths and 6ths, although contrary to his guidelines, sounds quite good).
A lot of people assume that Schoenberg started writing 12 tone music because he couldn't write tonal music. This is utterly wrong: check this out.
Anyway, I particularly like this piece of Schoenbergs: click. I'm not actually sure whether it's twelve-tone or not: it can actually be very difficult to tell sometimes, and I don't have a score, so it's even more difficult.

I like your note row, by the way, but you should develop it straight away: repetitions don't tend to work.
#3
Hm, is this the 12-bar technique or am I thinking of something else?
#4
I listened and quite liked it, although national anthem was right, it was repetitive, and much of the development seemed to be in the backing track (which didn't conform to the twelve tone row idea, at least not as I understand it).
#6
jason becker loved using 12 tone rows.
there is one in the cacophony song "savage",on the instrumental part.
i think that there`s another one on "opus pocus" off his solo record.
#7
Quote by National_Anthem
What part of them did you think was bs? The whole point was that they weren't supposed to be melodic, or at least that's what Schoenberg wanted to achieve: that doesn't mean you can't create a melodic one, of course. I personally like writing melodic sounding ones (I find including 3rds, 5ths and 6ths, although contrary to his guidelines, sounds quite good).
A lot of people assume that Schoenberg started writing 12 tone music because he couldn't write tonal music. This is utterly wrong: check this out.
Anyway, I particularly like this piece of Schoenbergs: click. I'm not actually sure whether it's twelve-tone or not: it can actually be very difficult to tell sometimes, and I don't have a score, so it's even more difficult.

I like your note row, by the way, but you should develop it straight away: repetitions don't tend to work.

I didn't think it was possible to do anything creative with such specific guidelines, but I've heard some interesting stuff done with the idea since then.
Quote by bearded_monkey
Everytime I go into the guitar shop and ask for a G-String the shopkeeper always makes that TERRIBLE joke about it not being an underwear shop

So next time I go in I'm gonna ask for a thong
#8
Quote by Baroque_and_Rol
I always thought 12 tone rows were bs, until I was messing around and came up with an actually melodic sounding one on piano. Anyone else ever have any luck with 12 tone rows?

I have a recorded version of it with a rock groove under it on my profile.



Well, I believe the idea with the 12 tone rows was to make music where there is not 1 central tone/tonic. What you did is at odds with that concept because you have a tone that you keep reiterating through the whole piece.

It's not wrong, you can always do what you want with your own compositions, but unless I'm mistaken, what you did is not consistent with common practice in terms of atonal/12 tone row derived music. From what I remember , after a tone is used, it would not be used again until the row has completed. The idea is to abolish any sense of tonality. Not the same thing as what you did.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Sep 4, 2009,
#9
Twelve tone rows usually sound bad because we're not used to atonal music.

The rows that sound best to our ears usually contain hints at tonallism (eg. arpeggios of some sort contained within it) and I think it was Berg who clung on to tonality the most, but the whole point of atonal music was for it to be just that, atonal, not something that is almost tonal.

There are some atonal pieces with tone rows that are very listenable and if you ever try to write a piece this way you find that your row becomes very likeable after many repetitions (although a tone row is rarely repeated as it is in a atonal piece for very long).

Edit:
^ You're right, every note has to be used before you repeat a note (although you can do clever things like changing row halfway through to get round this).
Last edited by 12345abcd3 at Sep 4, 2009,
#10
Quote by 12345abcd3

Edit:
^ You're right, every note has to be used before you repeat a note (although you can do clever things like changing row halfway through to get round this).


I was taught that there's a subtle difference between serialism and 12-tone music: that in one repetitions are allowed, and in the other no repetitions are allowed. I've forgotten which way round it is, and I'm not even sure whether this is true. I've come across some Webern music where the 12-tone row is so cleverly disguised that it's almost impossible to tell what it is.

Quote by Baroque_and_rol

I didn't think it was possible to do anything creative with such specific guidelines, but I've heard some interesting stuff done with the idea since then.


It's not really any stricter than the rules that govern tonal music. There's more possibilities with atonal music (purely in terms of mathematical permutations/combinations of notes: the greater possibilities of atonal music as an art form are debatable) so the extra rules don't really constrain you. I hope that makes sense. And it's amazing how creative some 12-tone music is: a lot of the innovation is actually in the rhythm and texture.
#11
Quote by National_Anthem
I was taught that there's a subtle difference between serialism and 12-tone music: that in one repetitions are allowed, and in the other no repetitions are allowed. I've forgotten which way round it is, and I'm not even sure whether this is true.

I'm not sure about that but even in a composition with a tone row rules can be broken in the name of musicality.

Quote by National_Anthem
I've come across some Webern music where the 12-tone row is so cleverly disguised that it's almost impossible to tell what it is.

Yeah most atonal music is much more complicated than just one tone row being repeated, several rows are usually going on at the same time, the rows can be spread around mulitple instruments, the notes can be "stacked" into chords etc. You can spend ages sitting with a tone row matrix trying to find out where each of the rows are in the compositions by Schoenberg and Webern and Beg.

Quote by National_Anthem

It's not really any stricter than the rules that govern tonal music. There's more possibilities with atonal music (purely in terms of mathematical permutations/combinations of notes: the greater possibilities of atonal music as an art form are debatable) so the extra rules don't really constrain you. I hope that makes sense. And it's amazing how creative some 12-tone music is: a lot of the innovation is actually in the rhythm and texture.

Well atonal music isn't any stricter but using a 12 tone row is.

Quote by Baroque_and_Rol
I didn't think it was possible to do anything creative with such specific guidelines, but I've heard some interesting stuff done with the idea since then.

As I've already said, the rules can be bent in the name of artistic license. Schoenberg was pretty atonal but some Berg and Webern have a lot more tonal influence/components (eg. an arpeggio of a chord in the tone row).

Also, all the inversions, retrogrades, transpositions and retrograde inversions mean with one tone row you end up with 48 tone rows to play with which leaves you with a lot of possibilities.
Last edited by 12345abcd3 at Sep 4, 2009,
#12
Quote by 12345abcd3


Well atonal music isn't any stricter but using a 12 tone row is.



That's what I meant to say, I just wasn't clear enough.
#13
Mine was more 12 tone influenced than a strictly 12 tone piece. The melody line is a 12 tone pattern, but the song ended up being more about the overall sound than the 12 tone concept. I played a live version of it once where the musicians were basically improvising their own parts around that groove with the row on top of it, so that's just part of the song.
Quote by bearded_monkey
Everytime I go into the guitar shop and ask for a G-String the shopkeeper always makes that TERRIBLE joke about it not being an underwear shop

So next time I go in I'm gonna ask for a thong
#14
I just listened to it and that two note sequence you have playing under the tone row basically destroys to concept of the tone row because it makes some notes more significant than other and provides a tonal centre.

It would probably be better to call it a "tone row inspired melody" or something similar because it doesn't really make sense to call it a tone row. Nice composition though.