#1
Okay, let's say I have a typical blues progression in the key of A, then i have those three Chords:
A7 (I Chord), D7 (IV Chord), E7 (V Chord)
I know that the A Mixolydian and Major Pentatonic works over the I chord, over the IV chord works A Dorian (D7 Mixolydian) and the Minor Pentatonic (it might work everywhere but i'm looking for alternatives.) ..well technically it has to be B Dorian (E Mixolydian) over the V chord, but I'm not very confident with the sound of it, because for me it's too much of a "shift effect" from the IV chord to the V chord, due to the fact it's the same scale just a whole step apart from each other...

any ideas for soloing over the V chord?
#3
A Dorian isn't the same as D Mixo, and B Dorian isn't the same as E Mixo - they just share the same notes. You can't play B Dorian over an E7 chord, especially when the progression is basically in A. It would resolve to completely the wrong place.

You should be able to use A minor pent, A Major pent or A Mixo over the whole thing. Just use your ears so you pick notes from whichever scale you use that work for each chord (eg if you're using A min pent watch the min 3rd over the A7). Will be even easier if you use chord tones too - eg A minor pent + chord tones (the Maj 3rd over the A7, the Maj 6th over the D7 and the Maj 7th over the E7)
#4
Quote by zhilla
A Dorian isn't the same as D Mixo, and B Dorian isn't the same as E Mixo - they just share the same notes. You can't play B Dorian over an E7 chord, especially when the progression is basically in A. It would resolve to completely the wrong place.


Huh? I use that technique regularly.

Are you just being technical and saying it's the E mixo instead of the B dorian?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#5
Quote by AlanHB

Are you just being technical and saying it's the E mixo instead of the B dorian?


No, he's just being correct saying that E mixolydian is not the same as B dorian. For God sake, they even have different names, how can that be if they're exactly the same? They share the same notes but E mixolydian resolves to E (hence E mixolydian) and B dorian resolves to B (hence B dorian). Resolving to B when you play in an E major progression or over an E major chord doesn't make any sense, does it?
#6
>They share the same notes but E mixolydian resolves to E (hence E mixolydian) and B >dorian resolves to B (hence B dorian). Resolving to B when you play in an E major >progression or over an E major chord doesn't make any sense, does it?

what exactly do you mean by "resolve" here? the ending note of a scale? or the ending note of the last bar over the chord?

appreciate the feedback.
#7
Quote by zhilla
A Dorian isn't the same as D Mixo, and B Dorian isn't the same as E Mixo - they just share the same notes. You can't play B Dorian over an E7 chord, especially when the progression is basically in A. It would resolve to completely the wrong place.


for me it's enough to know that they share the same notes, but I appreciate that you say it's not the same

Quote by zhilla
You should be able to use A minor pent, A Major pent or A Mixo over the whole thing. Just use your ears so you pick notes from whichever scale you use that work for each chord (eg if you're using A min pent watch the min 3rd over the A7). Will be even easier if you use chord tones too - eg A minor pent + chord tones (the Maj 3rd over the A7, the Maj 6th over the D7 and the Maj 7th over the E7)


I don't think that Mixolydian over the whole thing is a good idea, because it's a very specific scale and you are limited when it comes to the IV and V chord (if you are willing to use just this scale)
Then again it's a good idea not to think in scales but in the specific notes that are played in the chords..(it might be the same thing but it's easier to realise)
#8
Quote by deHufter
No, he's just being correct saying that E mixolydian is not the same as B dorian. For God sake, they even have different names, how can that be if they're exactly the same? They share the same notes but E mixolydian resolves to E (hence E mixolydian) and B dorian resolves to B (hence B dorian). Resolving to B when you play in an E major progression or over an E major chord doesn't make any sense, does it?


Well ending on a B note would be perfectly acceptable when jamming in E major

I understand the differences, I was wondering whether he was criticising the use of that technique or correcting the term used to name it.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#9
Quote by vtpcnk
>They share the same notes but E mixolydian resolves to E (hence E mixolydian) and B >dorian resolves to B (hence B dorian). Resolving to B when you play in an E major >progression or over an E major chord doesn't make any sense, does it?

what exactly do you mean by "resolve" here? the ending note of a scale? or the ending note of the last bar over the chord?

appreciate the feedback.
You wouldn't normally keep changing scales over a progression, as it gets confusing for the listener. If you can use one scale, with a few accidentals, its normally imo better to do that.

By 'resolve' I mean the chord it wants to finish on - whether or not you actually finish there is up to you, but the chord/note it resolves to is where it will feel most finished and complete.

@Verkill - Mixo gets used a lot in blues I think. Try it. See if you like it. If you do, use it, if not, don't Don't forget you don't have to use every note over every chord

Edit:
Quote by AlanHB
I understand the differences, I was wondering whether he was criticising the use of that technique or correcting the term used to name it.
I don't get why you would want to call something by a different name - how does that help? B Dorian is B Dorian, E Mixo is E Mixo .... they are all the same notes, the names tell you the relationship between the notes/intervals and the root and the context to use them in, so calling a scale/mode by a different name imo is just confusing, and I can't see any benefit from it
Last edited by zhilla at Sep 4, 2009,
#10
Quote by zhilla
Edit:I don't get why you would want to call something by a different name - how does that help? B Dorian is B Dorian, E Mixo is E Mixo .... they are all the same notes, the names tell you the relationship between the notes/intervals and the root and the context to use them in, so calling a scale/mode by a different name imo is just confusing, and I can't see any benefit from it


Because if someone was learning, it's better to tell them they're close than they're completely incorrect. If someone is doing completely the correct thing, but just giving it a wrong name, it is better to merely correct the name they give it than tell them everything they're doing is incorrect.

If a student came to me and said "hey I found out I can play F#minor over A major! why?" then proceed to play the A major scale in the F#minor position, would I then heavily criticise them because they called it wrong, or just say "that's almost right - they share the same notes so can sound the same, but it's still called A major".

The difference basically is that one is being a music theory snob, and the other is being a teacher, and actually helpful.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#11
Quote by zhilla

Edit:I don't get why you would want to call something by a different name - how does that help? B Dorian is B Dorian, E Mixo is E Mixo .... they are all the same notes, the names tell you the relationship between the notes/intervals and the root and the context to use them in, so calling a scale/mode by a different name imo is just confusing, and I can't see any benefit from it


I have a reason:

I play A Mixolydian over the I chord (A7). When the chord changes to the IV chord , I stay in the same box/position if I look at it as (A) Dorian, I just have to look which notes are changing. It also helps a lot not to use "another" scale for each chordchange (Inreality u do use another scale but it's not that obvious because there is just a difference of one or maybe two notes.)
I think It's good to see the scales in relationship with eachother, if you look at them as three complete different scales, it's hard to make them sound good togother for the whole progression
#12
If you want. You can play A major pentatonic over the entire movement as I,IV,V movement.

Or you can Amin pentatonic as VI, II,III movement.

Or you can play A major pentatonic while over A7.
D major pentatonic while over D7
E major pentatonic while over E7
Do the same in minor pentatonic. Amin while over A7..etc

Or you can mix it up.

I personally tend to focus more on the phrasing. Questions and answers phrasing.

I'm familar with the fretboard and the arpegios of the chords.

Yes, I change keys sometime.

B Dorian and E mixolydian dosn't give the same sound.
As in C major/Ionian dosn't have the sounds as A aeolian, even though they have the same notes. It takes time to train your ears
Last edited by 12notes at Sep 4, 2009,
#13
Quote by AlanHB
Because if someone was learning, it's better to tell them they're close than they're completely incorrect. If someone is doing completely the correct thing, but just giving it a wrong name, it is better to merely correct the name they give it than tell them everything they're doing is incorrect.

If a student came to me and said "hey I found out I can play F#minor over A major! why?" then proceed to play the A major scale in the F#minor position, would I then heavily criticise them because they called it wrong, or just say "that's almost right - they share the same notes so can sound the same, but it's still called A major".

The difference basically is that one is being a music theory snob, and the other is being a teacher, and actually helpful.
Ok, maybe I could have phrased my first post a bit better - sorry TS didn't mean to be harsh - but if he's naming modes by shapes not by root notes he's in danger of confusing himself in the long run.

We get so many people starting threads asking how to 'get out of the box' because they've just learnt scales as box shapes without understanding the scale at all - it gets frustrating because it shows there must but loads of people out there struggling on in silence because scales make no sense to them and they can only play them in the box shape that they've named after that scale. They'd have life so much easier if someone would just explain to them that scales are not box shapes but are made of notes and intervals.

@verkill - its great that you are looking at the relationship between different scales, but don't just look at them as patterns - if you haven't already done so, look at them in terms of notes and intervals - that way you can change from A Maj to A Dorian by just plattening the 3rd and 7th, rather than having to think what other relative scales there are that you can play in that position
#14
Quote by zhilla


@verkill - its great that you are looking at the relationship between different scales, but don't just look at them as patterns - if you haven't already done so, look at them in terms of notes and intervals - that way you can change from A Maj to A Dorian by just plattening the 3rd and 7th, rather than having to think what other relative scales there are that you can play in that position


this is exactly what I mean!
The fact is that the MOST notes aren't changing.. just a few, and that's the reason why they all can be related to A (that's just my opinion)


anyway.. I think, there are no common "rules" of doing such things. Everyone has to find rules that work for him/her, then there is no problem with that
#15
Quote by verkiII
anyway.. I think, there are no common "rules" of doing such things. Everyone has to find rules that work for him/her, then there is no problem with that
True - provided it works for you great. Try out the ways everyone else does it too though, because you might find their way works too, and gives you extra options. The more ways you can look at things the better imo.
#16
anyone just getting into music / guitar and trying to play blues..

this depends on your definition of the blues, its more than just three chords, but that is a good place to start..

as a guitar study, I would listen to some of the pioneers of the idiom: howin wolf, robert johnson, muddy warters and go back even further to the very early recordings..of the people that played just by feeling it..to them it was just music..

hear it evolve over the decades..hear how one players created a style and others used it and created their own take on it..

hear how it became an amalgam of styles when players used electric guitars...and how early bb king, albert king , buddy guy and so many others created a new sounding blues using the most basic music fundamentals of "three chords".. try and get some of that sound under your fingers...it takes some time so don't expect to be able to "copy" licks that sound easy..but when you play them they don't sound anywhere close to what you hear bb king play or any of the blues masters..

Learn as much music theory as you can and apply it to guitar...this is not an instant study...knowing the major scale is one step of many..and applying the knowledge in a musical context, depending on you goals, will take years to develop into your "style"

My advice to all new to music / guitar...dont worry about "modes" ... In fact dont even try to understand them until you "know" diatonic harmony in all keys and how it is applied on the fretboard...after that you will have a solid backround to begin to explore modes so they will make sense ..and even then..outside of jazz players...your daily contact with modes will be limited...knowledge of diatonic harmony and the chords it produces, the scales & arpeggios and a good study of rhythm will cover most bases most of the time.

play well

wolf
#17
Quote by verkiII
I have a reason:

I play A Mixolydian over the I chord (A7). When the chord changes to the IV chord , I stay in the same box/position if I look at it as (A) Dorian, I just have to look which notes are changing. It also helps a lot not to use "another" scale for each chordchange (Inreality u do use another scale but it's not that obvious because there is just a difference of one or maybe two notes.)
I think It's good to see the scales in relationship with eachother, if you look at them as three complete different scales, it's hard to make them sound good togother for the whole progression


So your just naming the box shapes with the names of the modes. I find its easier to think of playing D Mixolydian over a D chord than to think that I'm over a D chord, so I should be playing off of the A note. Even if I am in fifth or seventeenth position, playing D something over a D chord makes the most sense.

Also giving them the correct names is useful for communicating with other musicians. If everyone learns the same system then two people who've never met can easily communicate; If you create your own idioglossia of musical terms then when you jam with someone knew, they'll be confused as to why you would play Dorian (a minor scale) over a dominant chord.
#18
Quote by pwrmax
You can just use the A blues scale for the entire thing.

Yep, or even the A mixolydian for the whole thing. but dont be afraid to use chordtones or major scales either.
#19
Quote by isaac_bandits

Also giving them the correct names is useful for communicating with other musicians. If everyone learns the same system then two people who've never met can easily communicate; If you create your own idioglossia of musical terms then when you jam with someone knew, they'll be confused as to why you would play Dorian (a minor scale) over a dominant chord.


Yeah You are completely right

In my special case, the first mode I learned was Dorian. So when I started thinking about this progression, I realised that I can play a shape of notes that I already know over the IV and eventually the V chord. It was just easier for me to understand and utilise (and it worked for me by the way) and I think in this case it just matters that the two scales share the same notes, thats all.

By the Way, thanks for your enthusiasm, but actually I only asked about the options to play over the V chord
#21
Unless you're playing a blues song with a jazz band, it's probably totally unnecessary to think in terms of modes. Blues is simple. Base your solos around the blues scale. Use chord tones and passing tones. Learn other players' licks and come up with your own.
#22
1. Leave home with only a guitar and a suitcase full of clothes.
2. Live only from boxcar to boxcar
3. Learn to love whiskey.
4. Earn a badass nickname.
5. Suppliment your first name for that nickname. (ex: Rattlensake Williams)
6. Play your guitar for whiskey money.
7. ???
8. Be an awesome blues guitarist.
OBEY THE MIGHTY SHITKICKER
#23
Quote by verkiII
Yeah You are completely right

In my special case, the first mode I learned was Dorian. So when I started thinking about this progression, I realised that I can play a shape of notes that I already know over the IV and eventually the V chord. It was just easier for me to understand and utilise (and it worked for me by the way) and I think in this case it just matters that the two scales share the same notes, thats all.

By the Way, thanks for your enthusiasm, but actually I only asked about the options to play over the V chord


You need to forget about "modes" for now.

Modes are not just names for certain patterns of notes on the fretboard.

Changing to a different location on the fretboard and playing a different "shape" doesn't mean you're using a different scale or mode. And just because a certain note is the first note you play in a certain pattern doesn't mean that note is your new root note. Every scale can be played all over the fretboard.

It's ok to think in terms of what you already know (or think you know) - but it's important to learn the correct terminology and naming practices as well.

Even though you "only asked about the options to play over the V chord" - nobody's going to recommend that you play "x" mode over the V chord, because there's no reason to be thinking in terms of modes at all.
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#24
I agree with everyone else. I think you should forget about using modes and focus on figuring out how to use the A blues scale to outline all of the chord changes.

Once you get familiar enough with the blues/minor/major scale, it becomes almost easy to follow the chord changes with your lead lines.

Focus on the minor/major thirds of every chord to really emphasize the chord change and also use the 5th of each chord. These notes are super useful in outlining the changes.

Good luck!
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