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#1
My guitar teacher used to play certain chords in succession and I would just have the funnest time soloing over it. Commonly known as picking a key and jamming in it.


Can someone help me learn this concept, how to do it? Whether it be explaining it or providing a link, video, w/e.

I desperately want to learn this technique so I can jam properly with my buddy.
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#2
Um, I dont know officaly how to play in key, but I'm able to listen and play in the same key, it usually comes with experience. You first need to know the base chords their playing and after that if you know your scales and where your notes are it kinda falls all in place, you just got to be inventive with it.
#3
Quote by ethan_hanus
Um, I dont know officaly how to play in key, but I'm able to listen and play in the same key, it usually comes with experience. You first need to know the base chords their playing and after that if you know your scales and where your notes are it kinda falls all in place, you just got to be inventive with it.

Well a know a nice couple of scales but my problem is I'm not too good with chords and have no idea what chords to play for someone who may be soloing or riffing or whatnot.
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#4
basically if you have a key you are playing in, you use the chords with roots in that scale. whether you use a minor or major chord depends on which chord has notes in the scale. also if you use key changes, use an interval that sounds good. just like coming up with a basic single note melody.
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#5
Well you can look it up on the Google. Find out what chords are in what keys.
FOR EXAMPLE...

The key of G is made of up of...
G, Am, Bm, C, D Em, F#m and G again..

Then from there you make a chord progression. Take mine,
G, F#m, Bm, D

From there you would figure out the soloing scales. Using the chords, the G chord is the 1, F#m chord is the 7, Bm is the 3 and the D is the 5.

So you'd use the G Ionian, F#m Locrian, Bm Phrygian and D Mixolydian scales. In that order.
#6
well you choose a key, lets say g major which has an f# and the rest of the notes are natural so basically you just play all those notes and f# and there you go youre playing in the key of g major.
#7
Quote by the420guitarist
basically if you have a key you are playing in, you use the chords with roots in that scale. whether you use a minor or major chord depends on which chord has notes in the scale. also if you use key changes, use an interval that sounds good. just like coming up with a basic single note melody.


Okay two questions

a) Are there any lessons for this on UG

b)What exactly is a root? I always kind of had a rough idea (one constant note in a chord, progression, etc.) But I'm not too educated on these music theory (even if they are the most basic) terms.
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#8
Quote by TheBodomBullet
Well a know a nice couple of scales but my problem is I'm not too good with chords and have no idea what chords to play for someone who may be soloing or riffing or whatnot.



Well, usually when someone starts playing randomly they will start with either a G note or a G chord, and it usually progresses from there to D, then C, then mabey E then back to G, that would basicaly be a key of G progression I think, but you have to have communication between you and the other guitarist, one of you has to play rythem, and one plays lead or rythem, but someone has to keep a rythem with chords. So soloing over a Chord rythem isent that hard, you might have to start over a few times, but after you do it it'll get easy.

But I would reccomend learning what all your bar chords are and all your standard chords are before you start. It helps alot with learning the notes all over the fret board.
#9
I'm starting to get rough idea of what I need to be looking for

but I'm still a little lost. Keep in mind I'm not too keen on the terminologies. Also is there maybe certain basic chords and progressions I can learn just to get myself started.
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#10
A root is a scale position from the Ionian scale... I think.

Essentially, the Ionian scale is made up of 7 scales.

Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aolian and Locrian.

When you're playing in a key, each note of the Ionian scale resembles a chord. In G, I listed those. Each of those chords are made up of scales (roots of the Ionian scale) which I also listed.

If you don't know what the hell I'm talking about, look up all the scales I listed.

EDIT: A 3, 5, 1 chord combination is incredibly common. For the key of G that would be the Bm, D, and G chords.
Last edited by r0ckth3d34n at Sep 3, 2009,
#11
Learn what a major scale is which is pretty much as basic as theory gets. Then when you know that you can figure out what chords are in what key. There should be lessons to explain this more.
#12
Quote by r0ckth3d34n
A root is a scale position from the Ionian scale... I think.

Essentially, the Ionian scale is made up of 7 scales.

Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aolian and Locrian.

When you're playing in a key, each note of the Ionian scale resembles a chord. In G, I listed those. Each of those chords are made up of scales (roots of the Ionian scale) which I also listed.

If you don't know what the hell I'm talking about, look up all the scales I listed.

Let me just ask you something about scales. All scales have several positions (fingerings) am I correct? I already know what I think is one position for the dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, and locrian.
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#14
Quote by TheBodomBullet
Let me just ask you something about scales. All scales have several positions (fingerings) am I correct? I already know what I think is one position for the dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, and locrian.


By fingerings, you mean 4 notes per string, 3 notes per string and 2/3 notes per string, yes.

I use 3 notes per string because it's a lot easier for soloing, and this way all scales have a pretty generic form.
#15
Quote by r0ckth3d34n
By fingerings, you mean 4 notes per string, 3 notes per string and 2/3 notes per string, yes.

I use 3 notes per string because it's a lot easier for soloing, and this way all scales have a pretty generic form.


Do they all of the SAME amount of fingerings or would one scale have like 5 positions and another one have like 3?
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#16
Identify the notes in the chord, to determine its tonality.
For example, an E Dominant 7 is E, G# (major 3rd to E), B (the 5th) and D (minor 7)
Use those notes to determine what scale you're gonna solo in.

Say I take E minor, C major and B Dominant 7. I'm playing in E harmonic minor.
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#18
Quote by r0ckth3d34n
A root is a scale position from the Ionian scale... I think.

Essentially, the Ionian scale is made up of 7 scales.

Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aolian and Locrian.

When you're playing in a key, each note of the Ionian scale resembles a chord. In G, I listed those. Each of those chords are made up of scales (roots of the Ionian scale) which I also listed.

If you don't know what the hell I'm talking about, look up all the scales I listed.

EDIT: A 3, 5, 1 chord combination is incredibly common. For the key of G that would be the Bm, D, and G chords.

The TS asks how to play in key and you throw modes at him? Now that's just mean.
#19
Quote by oneblackened
Identify the notes in the chord, to determine its tonality.
For example, an E Dominant 7 is E, G# (major 3rd to E), B (the 5th) and D (minor 7)
Use those notes to determine what scale you're gonna solo in.

Say I take E minor, C major and B Dominant 7. I'm playing in E harmonic minor.

Here's the problem.

What chord? What chord do you speak of? I don't know about the chord you speak of lol.

You g2 be specific with me about this because I'm a retard when it comes to this.
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#20
Quote by -Blue-
The TS asks how to play in key and you throw modes at him? Now that's just mean.


I knew something didn't seem right. I haven't had a lesson in 2 weeks so my theory is a littttleee off.
#21
Quote by r0ckth3d34n
A root is a scale position from the Ionian scale... I think.

Essentially, the Ionian scale is made up of 7 scales.

Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aolian and Locrian.

When you're playing in a key, each note of the Ionian scale resembles a chord. In G, I listed those. Each of those chords are made up of scales (roots of the Ionian scale) which I also listed.

If you don't know what the hell I'm talking about, look up all the scales I listed.

EDIT: A 3, 5, 1 chord combination is incredibly common. For the key of G that would be the Bm, D, and G chords.


I'm going to correct you. Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aiolian, and Locrain are modes, not scales. 2 Completely different things. Don't believe me? Go ask the elites in the Music Theory/Musician Talk section. They will all tell you that modes are not scales.

If you're playing chords in the key of G, use G major. If I recall, if you take the 5th note of the G major scale, it becomes its Pentatonic scale. Don't quote me on that because my brain isn't working right now.

Learn Theory, easiest way I learned some theory was learning Jazz. Learn your Circle of Fifths, do NOT dabble with modes (They're not scales) until you feel you can understand them. They're very complex.
#22
So let me get this straight...
The piece of paper infront of me to help me remember this stuff with the words Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aolian and Locian labeled as scales is completely incorrect?

And every book I've read from using these terms as scales is incorrect?

How come you can go search these terms on the Google and you get scales?
#25
Quote by TheBodomBullet
Here's the problem.

What chord? What chord do you speak of? I don't know about the chord you speak of lol.

You g2 be specific with me about this because I'm a retard when it comes to this.

Ask him what chords he's playing.
Or, hell, just listen for it.
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#26
this is why learning theory is important

quick lesson:
pick a key you want to play in and write out the notes in order. for ease we'll use G major (E minor).

the notes are

G, A, B, C, D, E, F#

if you just using power chords all of these will work except F# because the 5th of F# is C# which is out of the scale.

for basic 3 tone chords chords major scales follow this scheme:
M = Major
m = minor
dim = dimished

M m m M M m dim

so you have
G Am Bm C D Em F#dim

again the VII (7) chord is odd because the 5th of F# is not in the scale.
lets take a look at the F# scale to see why.

F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D#, F

basic chords are constructed of the 1,3,5 notes of the scale.
1 F# - also in our G scale, so no problems here
3 A# - uh oh, this isnt in our g scale, but A is, so we have to make this a minor 3rd
5 C# - also doeen't work, but C will, we now have a diminished 5th


this should get you started on the right track. learn your theory.
#27
Quote by r0ckth3d34n
So let me get this straight...
The piece of paper infront of me to help me remember this stuff with the words Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aolian and Locian labeled as scales is completely incorrect?

And every book I've read from using these terms as scales is incorrect?

How come you can go search these terms on the Google and you get scales?


Modes have the same notes as other scales, however, they have a different root, a different tonal center. C major and D dorian are NOT the same thing, if you used D dorian over a C major progression, your still playing C major.
.

Taken from Musicians Talk section. There were other ones I had stumbled upon in the past that explains it way better, but that's just the quick search.

If the modes of Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aiolian, and Locrian were scales, then why aren't they called the Ionian scale? The Dorian scale? The Locrian scale? They're called modes for a reason.
#28
Quote by r0ckth3d34n
So let me get this straight...
The piece of paper infront of me to help me remember this stuff with the words Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aolian and Locian labeled as scales is completely incorrect?

And every book I've read from using these terms as scales is incorrect?

How come you can go search these terms on the Google and you get scales?


those arent actual scales, they are modes.
c major Scale is

c Ionian
d dorian
e phrygian
f lydian
g mixolydian
a aeolian
b locrian

all have the same notes. they are, however, different scale shapes that allow you to learn the scale over the entire fretboard fairly quickly. theres a LOT more to them than that, but as someone else said, dont worry about modes yet.
#29
Quote by DeanRedneck
those arent actual scales, they are modes.
c major Scale is

c Ionian
d dorian
e phrygian
f lydian
g mixolydian
a aeolian
b locrian

all have the same notes. they are, however, different scale shapes that allow you to learn the scale over the entire fretboard fairly quickly. theres a LOT more to them than that, but as someone else said, dont worry about modes yet.


They don't let you learn the entire fretboard quickly. If you want to learn the fretboard quickly, take your standard C major scale (No modes like posted above) use a metronome, and find the notes as fast as you can till you got it memorized.
#31
Quote by FallsDownStairs
They don't let you learn the entire fretboard quickly. If you want to learn the fretboard quickly, take your standard C major scale (No modes like posted above) use a metronome, and find the notes as fast as you can till you got it memorized.



that's not actually what i meant. i meant it makes it easier for me to recall all of the notes in a scale my thinking in terms of box shapes when im improvising, not memorizing all notes on the guitar.
#32
Quote by r0ckth3d34n
My little sheet here is titled "Diatonic Scales and Modes"

Does that clear anything up?


From the sound of it, they're not classifying modes as scales.

Don't dabble with modes yet. I've known people who have played piano and other instruments including guitar, who know a lot of theory, but won't even attempt modes yet because they still find them complicated.
#33
^^ But each mode is a scale on the piece of paper.
Ionian is major
Dorian is minor - natural 6
Phrygian is minor - flat 2
Lydian is major - sharp 4
Mixolydian is major - flat 7
Aolian is minor
and Locrian is minor - flat 2 and flat 5
#34
Quote by r0ckth3d34n
^^ But each mode is a scale on the piece of paper.
Ionian is major
Dorian is minor - natural 6
Phrygian is minor - flat 2
Lydian is major - sharp 4
Mixolydian is major - flat 7
Aolian is minor
and Locrian is minor - flat 2 and flat 5


**** that paper

the only thing you need to know about modes right know is that they exist. dont spend any time on them now.
#35
Modes are scales. However, if you lack the basic knowledge of them, don't use them. In fact, why they were even brought up in this thread I have no idea. They have no reason to be in this discussion.

Anyway, OP: you play in key by playing notes diatonic to the key.

those arent actual scales, they are modes. c major Scale is c Ionian d dorian e phrygian f lydian g mixolydian a aeolian b locrian

This is incorrect. Modes are not scalar positions.

If the modes of Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aiolian, and Locrian were scales, then why aren't they called the Ionian scale? The Dorian scale? The Locrian scale? They're called modes for a reason.

If that's the best argument for not calling them scales, while they clearly fit the definition of a scale, then I'm pretty sure they're scales.
Thinking of modes as scales is also the best way to understand them.
#36
Sadly I can't **** that paper. 1, there's no hole. 2, it's what I'm being taught from my guitar teacher.

If I remember correctly, he said it's helpful for learning keys, finding out what key you're playing in, how to jam, compose and learning modes.
#37
Quote by r0ckth3d34n
Sadly I can't **** that paper. 1, there's no hole. 2, it's what I'm being taught from my guitar teacher.

If I remember correctly, he said it's helpful for learning keys, finding out what key you're playing in, how to jam, compose and learning modes.


lol

Well this thread should be moved to the technique section eventually, but like others asserted, Dorian/Lydian/etc. are technically scale modes and not just scales. Maybe your teacher is trying to make things simple in a way, but it's confusing you.

I'm not a music teacher, but I'll share how I've learned to conceptualize this. And believe me, I sat in music theory class staring at the pages in the textbook going "WTF?" Book-learning this stuff just never worked for me well.. But it's a necessary evil if you're going to get to where musical ability goes beyond intellectual thought.

Think of it this way - one set of notes on the fretboard. Depending on where you start - i.e. what note you use as the root - that changes the mode. But the notes remain the same.

Look at the following and compare them - once I was able to visually see what was going on I had my "A-Ha" moment, maybe you will too.

D Ionian - commonly referred to as Major

B Aeolian - commonly referred to as Minor

E Dorian

G Lydian

A Mixolydian

See how all of the above are using the exact same notes on the fretboard? But they're different scale modes because they each have a different root.

Then if that weren't enough..

G Major Pentatonic

E Minor Pentatonic

Notice how these omit the half step interval.

Then take the pentatonic and add in the infamous 'blue note' and you get

E Blues scale

IMO, what scale modes really have to do with is the feel of a given song. We're mostly conditioned to songs in the major or minor modes (thanks pop music :P ), but from the above you can see that you can have two songs, both using the the same notes on the guitar, but depending on what note is being used for the root the feel of the song will change. Just like major tends to sound upbeat, whereas minor tends to feel dark and moody. But they are using the exact same notes, just a different root note, therefore different modes.

In the end, ideally, you want to get to where you can just hear music and be able to hum the root or improvise along in your head. Then it's just a matter of, through fretboard scale pattern knowledge that has become instinct, getting that music in your head to correlate to what notes you play. Kind of one of those "once you learn everything then forget it" deals.

Compare the above links and experiment with improvising using those notes, but try passages that resolve to a different root, i.e. are in different scale modes. Notice how the tension and release of a passage feels different depending on the mode.

YMMV, but this is what worked for me.
#38
TS, it's simple - learn theory. Learn about the major scale, learn it's intervals and how it sounds, learn how to harmonise it and derive chords from it and you should be set. Have a read of Josh Urban's Crusade articles (there's one aberrant reference to modes in there that should be ignored but everything else is sound) and the links in Freepower's sig. There's no "easy" answer to your question sadly, you just need to learn basic theory and get used to using it.

Keys have NOTHING to do with modes - they're two completely separate musical systems and they don't co-exist.

r0ckth3d34n = bottom line, your teacher is wrong. Modes are not the different shapes of the major scale, that's a myth that's been peddled by crap guitar teachers for years, I think it all stems from that god-awful Guitar Grimoire book.

Modes are what happens when you use the notes of the major scale over a different tonal centre, for example the notes C D E F G A B are the C major scale, however if you were to use them over a static Dm7 chord that whould shift the tonal centre away from C to D. Now, those notes resolving to D gives you a set of intervals that differs from the major scale....the 3rd and 7th are both flattened by a half step so you get

1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

and if you start from your new tonal centre of D and follow those intervals you get your notes D E F G A B C. However, those notes in sequence or just starting from D doesn't make something D Dorian,if you only take those notes in sequence, in isolation then it's accurate to describe it as the D Dorian scale. But thats in isolation, as soon as you start doing anything else with those notes or putting them in some sort of context then you have to take that into account too. Modes have nothing to do with shapes, patterns or "what note you start from" and everything to do with context.

And that's why modal names for scale shapes is bollocks, because those names already refer to something else that contradicts what the Guitar Grimoire and it's disciples try to teach. If you play the "D Dorian" shape over a C major progresson you're not playing D Dorian, you're playing C major and that goes for any of the relative modes.
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#39
God this thread is hilarious.
Typical guitarist not knowing the simplest thing in music.

Why don't you just wail on some power chords with unbearable amounts of distortion for about 5 minutes then play random notes in the higher register and call it a solo.
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