#1
I find myself in a dilemma. I've been swapping speakers in and out of various 1x12" amps over the last few months, and have some questions. For the purposes of this thread, I play metal, sometimes down-tuned sometimes not, with lots of gain and tons of heavy, tight, percussive palm muting.

Here's the problem; the amps in question, Randall and Peavey 1x12"s, have more bass to put out than their stock speakers can handle tastefully at higher volumes. The answer to this is, of course, to either turn down the bass, which leaves one with a somewhat lackluster tone for the metal styles I enjoy, or get a more powerful speaker that can take everything your amp has to dish out.

Anyways, the amps I've been playing will, at low resonance frequencies, do the whole "freak out bass thing" where you get a big bass woof followed by something ( I would guess the speaker, as more powerful speakers eliminate the problem ) buzzing like a hive of bees. To solve this problem I replaced the stock speaker with a g12k-100. The Randall is a 50watt tube, the Peavey is rated at 75 watts SS, FYI.

The trouble with that is, the g12k-100 is so efficient at handling the bass that the amp has to offer, that by comparison with the old speakers, the low end sounds pretty cold. At reasonable volumes on the stock speaker, I would get this massive, warm, punishing bass sound, like a stack roaring at full blast, with no buzz. The floor would vibrate, my pants would flap in the wind, and all was well with the world. If I turned up and kept my bass up, I'd get buzz, which I hated.

Now, with the g12k, I can crank it as loud as I want and with as much bass as I please and get no buzz, but I lose all that "character" that the low end had before; none of that massive, juicy kind of response, it's all too well handled by the g12k to sound "wild" like the stock speakers did...almost damped or limited in the low end.


Where is the middle ground here, or is there none? Do I have to "sterilize" the bass character with a powerful speaker like the g12k just to get no buzz at potent bass/volume levels? I tried the g12t-75 in the Randall, but it still did the "bass freak out" at certain frequencies...


Any advice? And sorry for the massive novel of an OP
#3
i must commend you, this is highly informative of the problem you are experiencing and you have already taken action and observed the results. this makes it much easier to help you. the g12k is actually quite phenomenal at handling exactly what you want, but like you said, it can be a bit sterile, which is why i went away from them.

now, from my understanding, you have a 50 watt tube head. one option you have is getting a speaker similarly voiced, but at a lower wattage. those k-100's are rated 100 watts a piece, which does 'clamp' your tone a bit if you aren't pushing it. webervst may be able to facilitate something like a 60/70 watt speaker close the the specs of a k-100. another option is a 2x12 that mixes a k-100 with something like a g12h-30?

one more detail i would like is, what was the stock speaker. regardless of power handling, the speaker may just not have the frequency handling for low end, so a 50 watt or 75 watt speaker that is voiced better may give your low end back. another option not explored much now-a-days is 15 inch guitar speakers, i know this doesn't do much for your 1x12 setup, i am just throwing it out there.

to tell truth, if you want the real solution i would contact webervst about your problem, tell them what you liked about your 2 speakers and see if they can offer a recommendation. you may end up with a nice handmade in america g12-65 that is cheaper than a celestion, or maybe they'll make you something custom. but you already know what you are looking for, i say bypass what people offer and get what you know you want, and get it made custom if need be. these guys are very knowledgable, very approachable, and completely capable.

http://www.tedweber.com/

edit: wait, dumb. i completely forgot. 1x12 combo's? open back design? your solution may be as easy as using a closed back extension cabinet with one g12k-100 in it. get a cabinet with a little extra dimension(for more dead air space, which lends itself to more percussive low end sound). you'll also want a thick baltic birch ply for the cabinet construction. you can find something like this from avatar or plenty of other dealers. the g12k-100 wants a closed cabinet so it can react the way it wants to.

this effect would be very favorable to you. so dumb not to think of that at first.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
Last edited by gumbilicious at Sep 7, 2009,
#4
Quote by gumbilicious
i must commend you, this is highly informative of the problem you are experiencing and you have already taken action and observed the results. this makes it much easier to help you. the g12k is actually quite phenomenal at handling exactly what you want, but like you said, it can be a bit sterile, which is why i went away from them.

now, from my understanding, you have a 50 watt tube head. one option you have is getting a speaker similarly voiced, but at a lower wattage. those k-100's are rated 100 watts a piece, which does 'clamp' your tone a bit if you aren't pushing it. webervst may be able to facilitate something like a 60/70 watt speaker close the the specs of a k-100. another option is a 2x12 that mixes a k-100 with something like a g12h-30?

one more detail i would like is, what was the stock speaker. regardless of power handling, the speaker may just not have the frequency handling for low end, so a 50 watt or 75 watt speaker that is voiced better may give your low end back. another option not explored much now-a-days is 15 inch guitar speakers, i know this doesn't do much for your 1x12 setup, i am just throwing it out there.

to tell truth, if you want the real solution i would contact webervst about your problem, tell them what you liked about your 2 speakers and see if they can offer a recommendation. you may end up with a nice handmade in america g12-65 that is cheaper than a celestion, or maybe they'll make you something custom. but you already know what you are looking for, i say bypass what people offer and get what you know you want, and get it made custom if need be. these guys are very knowledgable, very approachable, and completely capable.

http://www.tedweber.com/

edit: wait, dumb. i completely forgot. 1x12 combo's? open back design? your solution may be as easy as using a closed back extension cabinet with one g12k-100 in it. get a cabinet with a little extra dimension(for more dead air space, which lends itself to more percussive low end sound). you'll also want a thick baltic birch ply for the cabinet construction. you can find something like this from avatar or plenty of other dealers. the g12k-100 wants a closed cabinet so it can react the way it wants to.


this effect would be very favorable to you. so dumb not to think of that at first.



That sounds like a fantastic idea! Thanks for the informative response, I knew if I waited long enough someone like you would stumble across my thread

Now, here's my question...I'm a build-it-yourself kinda guy, and if you take a peek at my profile, you'll see I build my own guitars and such. Point being, what about closing off the back of my combo and sticking the g12k in there instead? I realize I would have to avoid overheating the amp and plan for ventilation and such.

Here's why I ask. If I get ( I'd probably build it, but that's not important ) a 1x12" closed back extension cabinet for the amp and continue to run the stock speaker, won't the stock speaker still "bottom out" while the g12k begs for more? As in, if I run the volume and amount of bass that I like, the stock will speaker will still freak out no matter how well the g12k is handling things, correct? Am I thinking about this correctly?

The idea of an extension cabinet is appealing though, as in my experience ( and everyone elses' ) 2x12" tend to handle bass better anyways.
#5
Quote by lumberjack
what about closing off the back of my combo and sticking the g12k in there instead? I realize I would have to avoid overheating the amp and plan for ventilation and such.


i have seen 1x12 closed back combo's with ss and tube. but yes, installing a fan to help cooling would be necessary for the tube amp at least. i don't think the ss one will mind too bad, but you'll want confirmation on that

Quote by lumberjack

Here's why I ask. If I get ( I'd probably build it, but that's not important ) a 1x12" closed back extension cabinet for the amp and continue to run the stock speaker, won't the stock speaker still "bottom out" while the g12k begs for more? As in, if I run the volume and amount of bass that I like, the stock will speaker will still freak out no matter how well the g12k is handling things, correct? Am I thinking about this correctly?


yes, and kinda no. really you have to figure what you want to do, then how you do it will dictate how it will react. for example, i was trying to imply using the 1x12 extension cab exclusively, this would make things simple and predictable as far as the response of speaker. now for using an extension cab with the stock speaker, well first off you are not going to get the same response from either speaker in this setup as wattage is being split off to 2 load sources set up in a circuit. so both speakers won't be getting the full amount of power and so therefore they won't act quite the same. the 'buzzing' speakers may not buzz anymore and the g12k will sound even more sterile most likely. i am guessing on that. but still it will depend on how the amp is designed for extension cabinets as well, like if your amp deals with extension cabs either parallel or series in the circuit(series is more known for edgy tone, while parallel tends to mellow and balance tones a bit more). and your amp may react differently depending on impedance and the such. really, we can trend these responses in general, but the complexities that we're getting into here are too unique to stereotype.

Quote by lumberjack

The idea of an extension cabinet is appealing though, as in my experience ( and everyone elses' ) 2x12" tend to handle bass better anyways.


this is true, and kinda what i would recommend more toward, what you're getting with more speakers is increased effective surface area of the speaker, which relates to it's ability to efficiently reproduce low end. using 2 12" speakers will also allow you better low end response without having to sacrifice any high end response too. close back cab will allow much more percussion. baltic birch evidently doesn't resonant, so none of the 'flexing' inherent with pine and much less energy wasted on 'shaking'(aka resonating) the cab. this will give a very tight tone. like mentioned earlier, i would kinda go overboard on dead air space as well, i would at least go 78 x 53 x 38cm but if you wanna really go out there you can do something like the old bandmaster 2x12's: 11 3/8 x 28 7/8 x 38 7/8 inches. the bandmaster cab also used a divider board in the middle to help isolate the pressure the individual speaker exerted when 'flexing'(ie moving back and forth to produce sound) on the other speaker(basically the 2 12" speakers will effect the each other's response by being 'synced' and creating more or less pressure inside the cabinet at the same time when the move, slightly compressing their signals artificially). one more thing, i would recommend wiring your speakers in series if possible(usually 2 8 ohm speakers in series for 16 ohm total impedance) as this will give you a more 'aggressive' tone.

if you can do this yourself, you will need baltic birch ply(preferably ~18mm or more), tools to make dove tails or finger joints, and tools route out appropriate holes for jacks and speakers. more advanced stuff live tolex covering, grill, casters and wiring can be fairly cheaply done by others if you don't care to do it yourself.

if you can do this yourself, you can do some really cool stuff, like i mentioned above. PM me if you need more specific advice, cabs/speaker are one of my more passionate interests.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
Last edited by gumbilicious at Sep 7, 2009,
#6
Arg! Bad news! I must preface this bad news with a little background: the Randall is the RM50, a great tube combo, but it's very unreliable and I've had to fix it twice in a 3 month ownership period, so for that and other reasons, it's headed out the door. The amp in question now is the Peavey Vypyer, which I bought for economic and reliability reasons, to bring along with me to my new apartment. The trouble with the Vypyr though, is that it has no speaker out! All I have to work with is the one 12" speaker...what now? Would closing off the back help, or make the issue worse?

The g12k in that amp, like in the Randall, sounds fairly cold, and what's more, since the stock Blue Marvel speaker is specifically voiced for the modeling properties of the amp, the g12k makes the whole shebang lose a good bit of "soul" if you will, since it's a generically voiced 'metal' speaker...what a pickle!
#7
Close it!

And L J, the Blue marvel in the Vypyr sucks. Try an Eminence with the closed back, don't just stick to celestion.
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Quote by Anonden
You CAN play anything with anything....but some guitars sound right for some things, and not for others. Single coils sound retarded for metal, though those who are apeshit about harpsichord probably beg to differ.
#8
well, not totally bad, i actually found the k to be alright with multieffects and modeling(as a by product of sterility it also doesn't 'mush' the modeled tone with 'speaker color'), basically you could have a worse speaker for modeling. i would close the back and maybe put grout on it to seal it. like i said, i would confirm that closing the back on a ss amp won't have as detrimental an effect on it. but still, you are not going to be able to get the more desired 'extra dead air space' and all birch construction that will truely tighten the amp up. the other option is pulling the head unit all together and making a cab for it. then pay someone to wire in a speaker out.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#9
Quote by gumbilicious
well, not totally bad, i actually found the k to be alright with multieffects and modeling(as a by product of sterility it also doesn't 'mush' the modeled tone with 'speaker color'), basically you could have a worse speaker for modeling. i would close the back and maybe put grout on it to seal it. like i said, i would confirm that closing the back on a ss amp won't have as detrimental an effect on it. but still, you are not going to be able to get the more desired 'extra dead air space' and all birch construction that will truely tighten the amp up. the other option is pulling the head unit all together and making a cab for it. then pay someone to wire in a speaker out.



Hmmm. I think I'll try closing the back and sealing with the g12k, as hopefully that will give it more "oomph" in the low end, and less "I dominate everything your amp sends at me, you pitiful infidel."

I won't have access to my tools for quite a while though, but thanks for all your advice gumbilicious!
#10
Quote by lumberjack
Hmmm. I think I'll try closing the back and sealing with the g12k, as hopefully that will give it more "oomph" in the low end, and less "I dominate everything your amp sends at me, you pitiful infidel."

I won't have access to my tools for quite a while though, but thanks for all your advice gumbilicious!


dont expect defined bass from a 112 at high volume, it all turns into undefined flubbiness. its just not what a 112 is meant for. regardless of whether its closed back, or if the cab is oversized, it really comes down to the cab dimensions

youre better off getting a 412 if you want some "oomph" in your low end at high volume

edit: i should add i didnt quite read all of your posts. just bits and pieces, so...
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Quote by Dempsey68
get a cheap marshall... my MG15DFX has a button that simulates the sound of one of the expensive tube marshall amps.
Last edited by the boogieman at Sep 7, 2009,
#11
I wouldn't bother closing the back on the vypyr. It's a cheap amp with a cheap cab. Even closed off the bass is still gonna flub due to the crappy cab.

I'd go with something middy like a v30 in the open back combo and then run it with a g12 in a closed back cab. Just use a speaker cable splitter and remember that the two cabs will be in parallel. I'm assuming the vypyr uses a 4 ohm output, so two 8 ohm speakers would work in this case. If the amp is 8 ohms you'll wanna go with two 16 ohm speakers.

That combo should give you a mixture of a lively open sound and a tight defined bass.

I don't give a shit if you listen to me or not