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#1
can we maybe make a chart for this? I've been reading and trying to understand it but I'm kind of tired of reading and to the point i want something to start practicing and just getting used to what chords go together to maintain whatever key im playing in. I think this would be helpful to start a chart and sticky this maybe...so others can add to it and increase its size.

I suggest we make a list or grouping that would have say...

Chords in Key of "A" - .......
chords in key of "A#/Bb" - ......

or to keep it even more simple just do "A", "A#" "Bb" all seperate so you don't have people asking why they are the same and whatnot...

please...can this happen...or does someone have a link to a page where this has already happened

thanks
#2
I'm not sure what you're requesting exactly... You're just talking about listing all diatonic chords in every key? Surely it'd be much easier and worth your time to just learn how to harmonize the major scale.
#3
yea im sure, but in the meantime when im just playing i want to have something to get used too, so i can kinda progress on both, get used to the chords and what not

Just like

Key of A chords
A maj
B min
G diminished

i dont know thought it might be helpful for people who dont mentally understand it but kinda have an idea of whats going on...i could understand it i think if i had better stuff to go off of.

thought it would be helpful
#6
so there is only a key for every note in the major scale meaning

A B C D E F G

no keys for the flats in between?

i understand that people should learn all the theory but it could just help make better guitarists out of people who aren't going to learn the theory no matter how much they need to, i dont know i would like to be able to look at a chart...go to my chord dictionary and start playing in key imediately instead of pouring over text trying to figure it out...cuz i don't get it with what i got right now
Last edited by Jeradmane at Sep 8, 2009,
#7
Quote by Martindecorum
What. the best way is to learn how many sharps and flats are in each key
also there is no key of A#
as the key of A has the value of 3 sharps


Yes, there is a key of A#. It has 10 sharps, though, and wouldn't be very smart to write in. You can make a key out of any note, but it won't necessarily be one of the 15 'standard' keys, and it will probably have an easier-to-write-in enharmonic equivalent. In this case, Bb.

TS: Yes, you're just talking about diatonic chords. If you know how to harmonize the major scale (thus, you'd need to know keys as well), you could do this easily. Here's a little cheat sheet.

I - the chord built off of the tonic is major
ii - the chord built off of the supertonic is minor
iii - the chord built off of the mediant is minor
IV - the chord built off of the subdominant is major
V - the chord built off of the dominant is major
vi - the chord built off of the submediant is minor
viio - the chord built off of the leading tone is half-diminished (I know I used the wrong symbol, I don't know how to get an o with a slash through it)
#9
Quote by Martindecorum
There are thirty keys that is all 30
and by that link www.musictheory.net its really easy to find the keys

its either u plus 7, take 7 or take 3,


WHOA not sure...not going to ask
#10
Quote by Martindecorum
There are thirty keys that is all 30
and by that link www.musictheory.net its really easy to find the keys

its either u plus 7, take 7 or take 3,


What does that even mean?

There are 15 keys that are usually used. C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, C#, F#, B, E, A, D, and G (and their respective minors).

But that doesn't mean you can't construct a key from A#. Or B#. Or Gbb. Or Ex. But these keys will contain double sharps or double flats (or even more than that, maybe). And you (probably) won't ever see them used.
#11
Quote by timeconsumer09
Yes, there is a key of A#. It has 10 sharps, though, and wouldn't be very smart to write in. You can make a key out of any note, but it won't necessarily be one of the 15 'standard' keys, and it will probably have an easier-to-write-in enharmonic equivalent. In this case, Bb.

TS: Yes, you're just talking about diatonic chords. If you know how to harmonize the major scale (thus, you'd need to know keys as well), you could do this easily. Here's a little cheat sheet.

I - the chord built off of the tonic is major
ii - the chord built off of the supertonic is minor
iii - the chord built off of the mediant is minor
IV - the chord built off of the subdominant is major
V - the chord built off of the dominant is major
vi - the chord built off of the submediant is minor
viio - the chord built off of the leading tone is half-diminished (I know I used the wrong symbol, I don't know how to get an o with a slash through it)


so this pattern stays the same no matter what???

I've seen these numberals before and understand this much...about tonic supertonic etc...keys will never deviate from this formula?
#12
Quote by timeconsumer09
What does that even mean?

There are 15 keys that are usually used. C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, C#, F#, B, E, A, D, and G (and their respective minors).



when you go to that link that has been posted twice it will make sense lol
#13
Quote by Jeradmane
so this pattern stays the same no matter what???

I've seen these numberals before and understand this much...about tonic supertonic etc...keys will never deviate from this formula?


As long as you know the sharps and flats in the key (i.e. the key has an F# instead of a regular F), then yes it will always follow this formula for DIATONIC CHORDS. This means chords that are in-key. But yes, if you know your tonic, the other chords will always diatonically come out as I listed.

NOTE: THIS IS FOR MAJOR KEYS

Of course, substitutions and out-of-key chords are possibilities too. But I won't delve into that in this thread.

Quote by Martindecorum
when you go to that link that has been posted twice it will make sense lol


I see useless dropdown bars, nothing explaining gibberish about 3's and 7's. Post a real link if you have anything to contribute, and don't post things unless you know what you're talking about.
Last edited by timeconsumer09 at Sep 8, 2009,
#14
Quote by timeconsumer09



I see useless dropdown bars, nothing explaining gibberish about 3's and 7's. Post a real link if you have anything to contribute, and don't post things unless you know what you're talking about.


http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/html/id25_en.html

THERE YA GO! take a chill pill bra
#16
Quote by timeconsumer09
It takes me to a blank page. Just drop it.

Upgrade your web browser, it works fine for me.
#17
OK so im making a list of all the major scales C-B. I know the steps are WWHWWWH and I know that you are looking for diatonic triads which are 1,3,5 correct?

so in the key of C...the major scale being CDEFGAB there is a chord for each not that is in tune with the key of C correct?

so chord 1 should contain CEG

now moving to the D i base it on the Dmaj scale which is DEF#GABC#
the triad here would be D F# A...but since F# isn't contained in the Cmaj scale...i turn it to plain old F???? and then any chord made of DFA is in the key of C which im guessing from that list TC09 posted it will be Dminor chord?

ok i got this much of the website here...so correct me on my attempt to find the next chord the iii chord i believe.

it will be based on Emaj which is EF#G#ABC#D# so my 1,3,5 is EG#B but since no G# is in the Cmaj scale...i make it a G and my triad becomes EGB? which is an E minor chord???

F would be F A C....which are all the notes in the F major...

ok i think i got this shiiiz
Last edited by Jeradmane at Sep 8, 2009,
#18
Quote by Jeradmane

so chord 1 should contain CEG

now moving to the D i base it on the Dmaj scale which is DEF#GABC#
the triad here would be D F# A...but since F# isn't contained in the Cmaj scale...i turn it to plain old F????

1) Yes, that's correct. It's a major chord built on the 1st scale degree so it would be an upper-case roman numeral I.

2) You got the right end result but not the right method. Stick with the C major scale. Just pick any note from it and build a triad on top of it. So for building a triad on D in the key of C, you go C D E F G A B. Analyzing the triad, it's a minor chord and it's built on top of the 2nd scale degree, so you would refer to it with a lower-case roman numeral ii.
#19
Quote by Jeradmane
OK so im making a list of all the major scales C-B. I know the steps are WWHWWWH and I know that you are looking for diatonic triads which are 1,3,5 correct?

so in the key of C...the major scale being CDEFGAB there is a chord for each not that is in tune with the key of C correct?

so chord 1 should contain CEG

now moving to the D i base it on the Dmaj scale which is DEF#GABC#
the triad here would be D F# A...but since F# isn't contained in the Cmaj scale...i turn it to plain old F???? and then any chord made of DFA is in the key of C which im guessing from that list TC09 posted it will be Dminor chord?

ok i got this much of the website here...so correct me on my attempt to find the next chord the iii chord i believe.

it will be based on Emaj which is EF#G#ABC#D# so my 1,3,5 is EG#B but since no G# is in the Cmaj scale...i make it a G and my triad becomes EGB? which is an E minor chord???


When you're finding the chords for the C major scale, you use the notes in the C major scale. You don't change scales. You have the C major triad right. For the next triad (D minor, we know this according to our formula), we just take the D, add the note from the C MAJOR SCALE that is a third up (F), and then the next one a third up (A). That's why it's minor. And that's why the formula works, because all the triads are built from the same scale in a given key.
#20
ok I see what you mean...that makes it easier even yet...i was just following how this lesson had them constructed but that makes it way better

ok i found a question

in the key of C...the B chord triad would be BDF...what chord does this make...i have a chord book so would it be a Bm7b5???? thats the closest chord im finding but it has an A in it as well...so what do i use?
Last edited by Jeradmane at Sep 8, 2009,
#21
Quote by timeconsumer09
Yes, you're just talking about diatonic chords. If you know how to harmonize the major scale (thus, you'd need to know keys as well), you could do this easily. Here's a little cheat sheet.

I - the chord built off of the tonic is major
ii - the chord built off of the supertonic is minor
iii - the chord built off of the mediant is minor
IV - the chord built off of the subdominant is major
V - the chord built off of the dominant is major
vi - the chord built off of the submediant is minor
viio - the chord built off of the leading tone is half-diminished (I know I used the wrong symbol, I don't know how to get an o with a slash through it)
That's how I would have answered.

If you learn the roman numeral system then you know what chords go together in any key. That's the point of the roman numeral system - to describe chordal relationships that can be applied to any key. Then you don't have to list them all you just write the chordal relationships down once and you cover all keys. Then you just have to know the keys.

The circle of fifths might be useful in learning the keys.
Si
#22
in the key of C...the B chord triad would be BDF...what chord does this make...i have a chord book so would it be a Bm7b5???? thats the closest chord im finding but it has an A in it as well...so what do i use?
#23
Quote by Jeradmane
in the key of C...the B chord triad would be BDF...what chord does this make...i have a chord book so would it be a Bm7b5???? thats the closest chord im finding but it has an A in it as well...so what do i use?

B D F is a diminished triad.
#25
yeah BDF is a B diminished triad you write that Bdim or Bᵒ

The diatonic seventh chord in C major built off the seventh degree would be made up of the notes B D F A which makes a "half diminished" seventh chord or Bm7b5 or B∅.
Si
#26
ok cool thanks a lot...rockin...im on my way to the top or atleast thats what i told the cop at the sobriety checkpoint the other night

so now I would like to know when changing KEYS....what decides a good shift to make???

like if you are playing in the Key of C...if you change keys what ones will sound good? F G E? A?...

will any key sound ok depending on the feel you are trying to achieve?
Last edited by Jeradmane at Sep 8, 2009,
#27
Jeradmane: I'd really like to help because (not to sound arrogant or anything) honestly, it sounds to me like you need it with all this. I'm not even quite sure what you're trying to achieve here...are you talking about changing keys or a chord progression in ^ post?
#28
im talking about changing keys...

a chord progression would just be made out of the scale you are using...right?? Like if I am playing in the Cmaj scale...and I wanna play a 1,4,5,1 progression it would be

CDEFGAB

CFGC that would be a 1451 progression in the Key of C

but now im trying to see how well other Keys work with each other...

for instance playing the intro verse and chorus in the Key of C...then changing to the Key of A for a change of pace...

im just wondering how keys relate to each other...like if certain Keys sound good together and why
Last edited by Jeradmane at Sep 8, 2009,
#29
^ Yeah but when you're talking about CHORDS you use roman numerals.
So C F G C would be a I IV V I progression.

When you use a minor chord such as C Am F G C then you would use a lower case roman numeral such as I vi IV V I.

(EDIT: 1 4 5 1 would be the notes first fourth and fifth single notes of the major scale not the chords built off those notes)

However, the roots of the chords you play don't have to stick the key you're in (or even if the roots do stick to the key you're in the other notes don't have to stick to that key) and it still won't be a "key change" it will just be a borrowed chord, or some borrowed chords.

A key change will actually change the whole sound of the passage.

To notate an out of key root you simply use a sharp or flat.

The key is all about the "home" pitch (or home chord). That is the pitch that sounds like the music is based around. A key change will shift that home to a new place. A borrowed chord won't.

If you play C Bb Am G C for example it's in the key of C but the Bb doesn't really "belong" in that key. But it sounds quite cool there. The reason? It's a bVII chord that we "borrowed" from the key of Cm (the parallel minor).

If you play Sittin on the Dock of the Bay the chords are G B C A. All major chords. But in the key of G the B and A should be minor chords. But they sound cool because they just sound cool. I did a whole analysis on this song a while back and how it plays on thirds. Anyway they are both borrowed chords. Using roman numerals we would describe the G B C A progression as I III IV II (notice they are all upper case).

Anyway you can change to pretty much any key. How much contrast that key change creates will depend on a few things but one important factor is how closely related the keys are.

Think of your starting key and look at the circle of fifths. If you change keys to one that is right next to your starting key on the circle of fifths (for example from C to G) then it's kind of like leaving your house and exploring neighbours yards. If you go a little further say from C to A then it would be like leaving your house and taking a road trip around the country. If you go further still like from C to F# then it would be like going to a whole other country.

The reason for this is the common tones among the keys. If the keys have a lot of tones in common then they will have enough similarity to keep you safe while introducing a little interest along the way. A key with very few common tones will much more disorienting since there is less in common for you to hang on to.

Anyway that should give some food for thought.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Sep 8, 2009,
#30
yea i knew the thing about capital roman numerals and lower case and all that...i was just being lazy lol...but yea that makes sense

do songs that change key normally stay close and "explore the neighborhood" or do most songs with Key changes move to china and then come back?
#31
Depends what they want to do.

You'll find lot's of different key changes.

Two fo the most common key changes are:
1. Relative Major/minor - Changing the relative major and minor key uses the same seven notes such as C major to A minor or vice versa, but one uses those seven notes in relation to C and the other uses them in relation to A which creates quite a different sound.
2. Using exactly the same progression and melody just shifted up a key. known as the "Truck Driver's Gear Change" You can read some scathing criticism of this type of key change and hear plenty of examples here

Another common one is changing up a perfect fourth like from C to F. You will notice they are right next to each other on the circle of fifths so it's like exploring the neighbourhood.

But there are other's that are far more adventurous. The Beatles used a lot of key changes and they changed to nearly every destination you can think of. I can't think of any off the top of my head - I'm tired but there are plenty that do.

The best way is to try it out and hear it for yourself. Mess around with your guitar/instrument just have fun and think about what you're hearing be honest about what you're hearing and take heaps of notes.

Best of Luck
Si
#32
man thanks a lot you, didnt have to go into it that much but it is well appreciated...i guess next i will try to learn minor scales and relative minors in relation to the majors

sweet stuff...thanks a lot again
#33
When changing key, it's good to find a chord that fits in both keys to use as a pivot chord. That way the transition will be smoother.
#34
Anybody know the formula for figuring out minor chords in a key? is there one similar to the I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, viio pattern?
#36
Quote by Jeradmane
Anybody know the formula for figuring out minor chords in a key? is there one similar to the I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, viio pattern?


It's i, iio, III, iv, v, VI, VII

Same pattern as the major pattern if you start at the vi. (vi = i, viio = iio, etc).
#37
yea thats what i mean thanks a lot

so if im correct it will follow this pattern

i - minor
iio - diminished or half diminished
III - major
iv - minor
v - minor
VI - major
VII - major

?
Last edited by Jeradmane at Sep 8, 2009,
#38
In the minor key, the V chord is generally major instead of being minor. Means a stronger resolution to the tonic.
#39
Quote by pwrmax
In the minor key, the V chord is generally major instead of being minor. Means a stronger resolution to the tonic.


Yes, but when you're harmonizing diatonic triads from the natural minor scale, it's minor.
#40
Quote by timeconsumer09
Yes, but when you're harmonizing diatonic triads from the natural minor scale, it's minor.

True, but it's important to point out that when writing a chord progression in minor keys, the V is almost always preferred over the v.
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