#1
What options are there for playing in key? I know that simply playing within the scale correspondent to the key sounds good. But playing the relative minor of a major key or vice versa works well too. What other options are there to play in?
#3
Try finding some modal licks that sounds good over some minor/major prog.

For me, A dorian is a cool substitute for A minor, but don't overuse it too much, it's just to add some trippy/tensioned/colour.

Mixylodian licks also works a bit over a minor prog since it has this b7 so it gives a cool sound. Also, try mixing other scales, I do this very often. For example : blues scale and harmonic minor scale.

Well, at the end, try to be creative with the theory you know!
#5
Quote by robinlint
Please do not suggest modes, as I do not understand them yet.


Well you're kinda missing on something there then. I would suggest you to learn them, they're not that hard. If you know your maj/min scale, you already know all the modes basicly. Well, more exactly, you already know two modes (Major scale = Ionian witch is the first mode, minor scale = Aeolian mode witch is the 6th mode)

If you don't plan on learning them, the scale mixing still works. In A minor, you can basicly play A harmonic minor to sound more "melancholic", and the A blues if you want to sound more bluesy kinda. You could even go get the melodic minor scale, but I don't like it very much except for one note or two.
#6
I don't suggest learning modes yet. Unless you are very familiar with the major scale you won't understand them fully. Very little music is modal anyway.

But playing the relative minor of a major key or vice versa works well too.

You can't. Say you have a progression in C, you can't play A minor over it, since you tonal centre is C.


I suggest just playing with the chord tones, and alter the scales to fit what you're playing over. Lean how to use accidentals efficiently, and most of all always trust your ear.
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#7
Quote by robinlint
Please do not suggest modes, as I do not understand them yet.
Modes wouldn't work over a tonal chord progression any way - you'd just be playing in whatever key the progression was, but overcomplicating it in your head.

If you're in a major key, use the major scale or the major pentatonic.

If you're in a minor key, use the natural minor scale or the minor pentatonic.

If you want to look at it slightly differently arpeggiate the chords, and extend them if you want more note choice (eg use the notes from a Amin7 arpeggio over an Am chord). If you want to do something more than that try adding in the odd accidental.
#8
Quote by KoenDercksen
By the way, major over minor doesn't sound good. Minor over major does sometimes.


Minor over major is no more likely to sound good than major over minor.
#9
Quote by robinlint
But playing the relative minor of a major key or vice versa works well too.
No, it doesn't. It really doesn't even make sense.

Read my post in this thread.
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Last edited by food1010 at Sep 13, 2009,
#10
Quote by kevC4
Well you're kinda missing on something there then. I would suggest you to learn them, they're not that hard. If you know your maj/min scale, you already know all the modes basicly. Well, more exactly, you already know two modes (Major scale = Ionian witch is the first mode, minor scale = Aeolian mode witch is the 6th mode)

If you don't plan on learning them, the scale mixing still works. In A minor, you can basicly play A harmonic minor to sound more "melancholic", and the A blues if you want to sound more bluesy kinda. You could even go get the melodic minor scale, but I don't like it very much except for one note or two.


The major scale is NOT ionian, and the minor scale is NOT aeolian. They contain the same notes, but are not referring to the same thing. If you're playing tonal music (and you are) then you're using major or minor. Using modal names doesn't apply.
#11
Quote by timeconsumer09
The major scale is NOT ionian, and the minor scale is NOT aeolian. They contain the same notes, but are not referring to the same thing. If you're playing tonal music (and you are) then you're using major or minor. Using modal names doesn't apply.


I just threw' that so TS could understand more physically what is a mode
#12
Quote by robinlint
What options are there for playing in key? I know that simply playing within the scale correspondent to the key sounds good. But playing the relative minor of a major key or vice versa works well too. What other options are there to play in?


Well, you have the notes in the key (from the scale)..... and you can incorporate chromatic non chord tones (passing tones, leading tones....ect). That's about it.

Anything more than that and you're no longer in that key.


btw, Im assuming your talking about playing a solo over a song in a particular key.
If you meaning writing in a key, there are lots of devices that can be used (such as secondary dominants, borrowed chords...ect).


Regarding using the relative Major or minor..

this really is a device that guitarists use to utilize a more familiar pattern (like minor pentatonic) in a situation where they would normally not be able to play.... like over a Major progression. In theory you're really just playing in the actual key. In other words playing A minor pentatonic over a C Major progression = playing C Major pentatonic over a C Major progression.


Quote by timeconsumer09
The major scale is NOT ionian, and the minor scale is NOT aeolian. They contain the same notes, but are not referring to the same thing. If you're playing tonal music (and you are) then you're using major or minor. Using modal names doesn't apply.



Actually the Ionian mode exists AS the Major scale. Likewise the Aeolian mode exists AS the natural minor scale. So, they are the same scales... the formulas are the same.... the notes sound and function in the same way..... they are the same in everything but name.

I agree that modal names are unnecessary when talking about Ionian/Major or aeolian/minor, but not because they are different scales (they are not), it's because in modern times there is no need to refer to them as anything other than the Major and minor scales.

The reason composers started using modes again is for the additional colors that they offer.... a way to break up what had become the monotony of the Major - minor tonal system. So when a person talks about using modes they are generally talking about the other modes.... the ones that have those additional colors....... not Ionian & aeolian.
Unfortunately guitarists have been sold the modes since the 80's shredder days, and the misuse of the terms as well as the scales themselves are rampant.


When people say that Ionian isn't the Major scale, (or the other way around) they are simply wrong.
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Sep 13, 2009,
#13
Quote by GuitarMunky
Actually the Ionian mode exists AS the Major scale. Likewise the Aeolian mode exists AS the natural minor scale. So, they are the same scales... the formulas are the same.... the notes sound and function in the same way..... they are the same in everything but name.

I agree that modal names don't apply, but not because they are different scales (they are not), it's because in modern times there is no need to refer to them as anything other than the Major and minor scales.

The reason composers started using modes again is for the additional colors that they offer.... a way to break up what had become the monotony of the Major - minor tonal system. The modes that offer these colors are dorian, phrygian, lydian, & mixolydian....... They had no reason to bring in something they were already using (Ionian, aeolian).

So when people say that Ionian isn't the Major scale, (or the other way around) they are simply wrong.


Yes, I know they exist as the same scales. But the point I was trying to get across is playing in a modal ionian setting is different from playing in a tonal major scale setting. They are the same scales, but with different applications. Sorry if that wasn't clear in the original post.
#14
Quote by timeconsumer09
Yes, I know they exist as the same scales. But the point I was trying to get across is playing in a modal ionian setting is different from playing in a tonal major scale setting. They are the same scales, but with different applications. Sorry if that wasn't clear in the original post.


Na, its okay. This issue is very common here at UG.

Let me ask you this. Give me a situation where a piece would be in a "modal Ionian setting" that couldn't also be described as being a "tonal Major setting".

What would we the difference?

Also give me one reason to write a piece in Ionian as opposed to Major
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Sep 13, 2009,
#15
Quote by GuitarMunky
Na, its okay. This issue is very common here at UG.

Let me ask you this. Give me a situation where a piece would be in a "modal Ionian setting" that couldn't also be described as being a "tonal Major setting".

What would we the difference?

Also give me one reason to write a piece in Ionian as opposed to Major


I always assumed the difference between Ionian and major was that if you were using ionian, you would be strictly diatonic. Like, a I IV V progression, something simple like that, or a V I vamp. Whereas you could still be in C major even if you had a progression that used substitutions and non-diatonic chords (bIII, bVII, tritone subs, etc.).

As for writing in Ionian as opposed to major, I wouldn't really think that would be all that great. If I'm correct about not being able to use non-diatonic and being strictly ionian, then I'd much rather write in major.
#16
Quote by timeconsumer09
I always assumed the difference between Ionian and major was that if you were using ionian, you would be strictly diatonic. Like, a I IV V progression, something simple like that, or a V I vamp. Whereas you could still be in C major even if you had a progression that used substitutions and non-diatonic chords (bIII, bVII, tritone subs, etc.).

As for writing in Ionian as opposed to major, I wouldn't really think that would be all that great. If I'm correct about not being able to use non-diatonic and being strictly ionian, then I'd much rather write in major.


Well what your talking about is the evolution of composition. In the times before the Major and minor system developed, compositions (as far as I know) were limited to the diatonic scale/mode. Then things developed..... then later on the modes became used again.

You have to consider all the history up to modern times when you define things. To define modes strictly based on the compositional practices of a few hundred years ago paint's an incomplete / not fully accurate picture.
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Sep 13, 2009,
#17
Quote by GuitarMunky

Also give me one reason to write a piece in Ionian as opposed to Major


It makes more sense when using pitch axis to use Ionian over a maj11 chord, since all the other chords will use the modal names as well.

Generally, call it Ionian when used in conjunction with other modal terms, and call it major when no other modal terms are being used.

Also, a major progression containing some non-diatonic chords (bVII for example) should be called major, and should not be called Ionian.
#18
Quote by GuitarMunky
Well what your talking about is the evolution of composition. In the times before the Major and minor system developed, compositions (as far as I know) were limited to the diatonic scale/mode.

The thing is, you have to consider all the history up to modern times when you define things like modes. To define them strictly based on practices of a few hundred years ago paint's an incomplete / not fully accurate picture.


Alright, well I'll take that into consideration. Thanks for checking me on my facts.
#19
Quote by isaac_bandits
It makes more sense when using pitch axis to use Ionian over a maj11 chord, since all the other chords will use the modal names as well.

Generally, call it Ionian when used in conjunction with other modal terms, and call it major when no other modal terms are being used.

Also, a major progression containing some non-diatonic chords (bVII for example) should be called major, and should not be called Ionian.



I would call it Major in every situation. IMO the term Ionian is obsolete. It's good to know for historical & relational perspective, but I see no reason to use it beyond that.
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Sep 13, 2009,
#21
Quote by isaac_bandits
It makes more sense when using pitch axis to use Ionian over a maj11 chord, since all the other chords will use the modal names as well.

Generally, call it Ionian when used in conjunction with other modal terms, and call it major when no other modal terms are being used.

Also, a major progression containing some non-diatonic chords (bVII for example) should be called major, and should not be called Ionian.


Just as a side note: Using a Maj11 chord would create unpleasant dissonance between the 3rd + 11th an also the 7th + 11th. Which is why in general in a Maj11 chord the 11th is sharpened.

If i wanted to use ionian in a pitch axis setting i would use a standard Major chord or a Maj9 (Maj7 to me gives off a more lydian impression).
#22
Quote by griffRG7321
Just as a side note: Using a Maj11 chord would create unpleasant dissonance between the 3rd + 11th an also the 7th + 11th. Which is why in general in a Maj11 chord the 11th is sharpened.

If i wanted to use ionian in a pitch axis setting i would use a standard Major chord or a Maj9 (Maj7 to me gives off a more lydian impression).


Maybe I like the minor ninth between the third and eleventh.

Quote by KoenDercksen
Minor pentatonics over major progression is very commonly used.


It doesn't matter what's common. In both cases a major and minor third are both being played at the same time, and thus both are equally likely to sound good.
#24
If you are in a major tonality, use major scale or пентатонного the major.
If you wish to look at it a little in another way arpeggiate chords, and to expand them if you want more choice of the note (eg, use notes from арпеджио Amin7 on chord Am).
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