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#1
I discovered a chord that can be called a Major chord add b9. However, in context, i think that it is augminished. The base triad is a minor third stack and then a M7. half- diminished has a minor 7 and fully dim has a b7. I like this chord..... what is your take on the augminished chord.
( A, C, Eb, G#)
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#2
Quote by Bluesy...
I discovered a chord that can be called a Major chord add b9. However, in context, i think that it is augminished. The base triad is a minor third stack and then a M7. half- diminished has a minor 7 and fully dim has a b7. I like this chord..... what is your take on the augminished chord.
( A, C, Eb, G#)


It's Adimmaj7
#4
Quote by RicheyVOX
tab it for me please


from 1st string back, 4,1,2,1
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#5
Quote by timeconsumer09
It's Adimmaj7


Its also a G#b9. the definition of a diminished chord is stacks of minor thirds (B, D, F, or B, D, F, Ab). a half diminished is stacks of minor thirds with the top one a major third. (B, D, F, A)
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#6
That would indeed be Adim(maj7).

Edit - Whoopsie, typo.
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Last edited by DaddyTwoFoot at Sep 14, 2009,
#7
Quote by Bluesy...
Its also a G#b9. the definition of a diminished chord is stacks of minor thirds (B, D, F, or B, D, F, Ab). a half diminished is stacks of minor thirds with the top one a major third. (B, D, F, A)


The way you spelled it, there's no reason to call it anything but Adim(maj7).

@ DaddyTwoFoot: The root it A, not Ab
#8
I've never called it Augminished (there's nothing that I can see that would make it augmented) or a whole/half chord

A few contexts in which I've used it in Quiet Nights of Quiet Stars (Corcovado)

Amin6 Ab Dim7 Gmin7 C7 Fmaj7

To keep the melody note in the chords the same I've heard it played

A F# C E
Ab F B E

Wich is an inversion of F Augminished (or F whole/half)

Some interesting lines moving around this chord

F Ab B E D F F# G

G E F Ab B E F B E

All based around F Augminished.
#9
AmM7b5

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#10
Yeah that's what I'd call it

1 b3 b5 7 = m/M7b5 - I can't draw the little triangle.

I've never heard of "augminished" is it even a real word? EDIT: Nevermind
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Sep 14, 2009,
#11
Augmented triad - 1 - 3 - #5

Diminished triad - 1 - b3 - b5

So where's the sharp 5 and the flat 5?
#12
Quote by Jean_Valjean
Augmented triad - 1 - 3 - #5

Diminished triad - 1 - b3 - b5

So where's the sharp 5 and the flat 5?



b5 is present ( A - Eb)

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#13
Surelt it much more easily described as G# add(b9)? Since there is no voicing given i can place the root where i like.
I assume you're not being totally strict about whether the notes are enharmonic or not. (G# addb9 is G# B# D# A)

If you are keen on the A being the root however, i would say it's either AmMaj7b5 but could potentially be written as Adim(maj7) without causing too much confusion. Calling it augminished will cause confusion however, since that's not a real word (what with augmented and diminished being opposite)
#14
Quote by doive
Surelt it much more easily described as G# add(b9)? Since there is no voicing given i can place the root where i like.
I assume you're not being totally strict about whether the notes are enharmonic or not. (G# addb9 is G# B# D# A)

If you are keen on the A being the root however, i would say it's either AmMaj7b5 but could potentially be written as Adim(maj7) without causing too much confusion. Calling it augminished will cause confusion however, since that's not a real word (what with augmented and diminished being opposite)



Agreed;

I still opt for it being written as mM7b5.

It seems logical, caus eyou have the m7b5, and dominant b5 chords as well.

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#16
Quote by Jean_Valjean
Augmented triad - 1 - 3 - #5

Diminished triad - 1 - b3 - b5

So where's the sharp 5 and the flat 5?


Diminished means stacks of minor thirds on a staff for example when you half diminish this chord, you have i use the term augminished because you are adding or augmenting if you will the last note in the chord (the 7th)
perhaps i should call it an augminished 7th chord if you will.

and a b3 would be a M2. maybe some intervals would help you.....
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#17
^ the point still stand that augminished is not a real word and does not exist. I've not seen a good argument against calling it a G# addb9 as yet so call it that. Even if there was a voicing given i would opt for G# addb9 inversion since that is more easily understandable than Am maj7 b5/ You would need a good reason to call it that cos it's a bit weird...
#18
The point is I INVENTED THE WORD SO IT DOES EXIST. I think I gave a pretty good reason why to call it that. It really spawned from a joke in theory class. I drew a diminished circle with a plus sign on the inside and said HA AUGMINISHED. And people thought Einstein was a nut too.
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#19
^ What?

It's an altered seventh chord.
Specifically an Am/M7 with an altered fifth hence my preference for Am/M7b5.

You could call it an augmented third on top of a diminished triad.

It is that too but when it comes down to it seventh chords are built by stacking major and minor thirds and when you have something else in there, like an augmented or diminished third, then it's some sort of alteration, suspension, extension, or addition. It's not a "natural" seventh chord.

You could get away with Adim/Maj7

Augminished and dimented chords? - they're like satellites.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Sep 14, 2009,
#20
Theres nothing augmented about it. Its diminished because it inclused a diminished triad

F Ab B E

Major addb9 isnt bad. The only reason I put Min/Maj7b5 above that is because in this were not adding extensions without a seventh.

If anything from a diminished chord the seventh has been doubly augmented.

If you want people to understand what you mean just use Min/Maj7b5 or Diminished Triad w/ Maj7.
#21
Diminished means stacks of minor thirds on a staff for example when you half diminish this chord, you have i use the term augminished because you are adding or augmenting if you will the last note in the chord (the 7th)
perhaps i should call it an augminished 7th chord if you will.

and a b3 would be a M2. maybe some intervals would help you.....



E - G is a b3.
E - F# is a M2.
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#22
Like 20tigers said it doesn't make any sense. This would be the best name if you absolutely want the A as the root, mM7b5.
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#23
Quote by Bluesy...
The point is I INVENTED THE WORD SO IT DOES EXIST. I think I gave a pretty good reason why to call it that. It really spawned from a joke in theory class. I drew a diminished circle with a plus sign on the inside and said HA AUGMINISHED. And people thought Einstein was a nut too.

Well i think you're a triypop. If everyone knew what that meant it could get me banned - but seeing as how i invented the word and it's meaning, it means nothing to everyone here and elsewhere in the world.
Language is a form of communication - if you invent a word and no-one else know what it means you are not communicating you are speaking in gobbledigook.
How is einstein even vaguely relevant?
People think Ron Hubbard (inventor of scientology) is a nut - and well maybe he is, but that doesn't mean anything to this now does it?
#24
oooh for a minute there I thought you called him a tryopip. That would have been a HUGE call!!

Can you even invent a word that already exists?

Augminished and dimented are already words. They're a combination of augminished and dimented chords. But they're the kind of things you got to know to understand. If you don't know, you won't understand.
Si
#25
Quote by DaddyTwoFoot


E - G is a b3.
E - F# is a M2.



E-G is a m3 E-Gb is a b3. E-F# is a M2. Its all about whats written. Take a theory class. First thing your teacher will tell you is LOOK AT WHAT IS THERE.

The einstien comment was in relevance that someone called me a nut, or along those lines.

IF there is such thing on an augminished and a dimented chord, enlighten me. That is why i started this thread, to gain knowledge.
I am the only sane person on the planet. Does that make me crazy?

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#26
I also think it's worth pointing out (even though I'm nitpicking), the way I understand interval naming, if an interval is minor, it has been flattened from its original major position. If you unflatten a minor interval, it simply becomes a major interval again. If you increase a major interval, it becomes augmented, so saying the seventh is augmented isn't entirely true because an augmented seventh would be enharmonic to the tonic note of the scale (e.g. an augmented seventh in the key of A would be Gx, as the major seven of A is a G# if increased by one semitone it becomes augmented and also enharmonic to A, rendering it functionally useless).

As to the naming of the chord well, I've read the ideas and I've contemplated it and let's just say I know when to avoid pits of soul consuming enigmas.

Oh and to above, a b3 and a m3 are the same intervals. E to Gb would be a diminished third I think, notated as dim3 or maybe bb3. You two are fighting over a miscommunication and everyone knows that's how wars are caused
#27
Quote by st.stephen
I also think it's worth pointing out (even though I'm nitpicking), the way I understand interval naming, if an interval is minor, it has been flattened from its original major position. If you unflatten a minor interval, it simply becomes a major interval again. If you increase a major interval, it becomes augmented, so saying the seventh is augmented isn't entirely true because an augmented seventh would be enharmonic to the tonic note of the scale (e.g. an augmented seventh in the key of A would be Gx, as the major seven of A is a G# if increased by one semitone it becomes augmented and also enharmonic to A, rendering it functionally useless).


That says that octaves are useless.



As to the naming of the chord well, I've read the ideas and I've contemplated it and let's just say I know when to avoid pits of soul consuming enigmas.

what's your point?

Oh and to above, a b3 and a m3 are the same intervals. E to Gb would be a diminished third I think, notated as dim3 or maybe bb3. You two are fighting over a miscommunication and everyone knows that's how wars are caused


you use b's and #'s to change a note, not name an interval. You are right for the dim3 and that is Gb. Aug3 would be A naturally enharmonically, but in key of a G##

That is assuming you are in a major key and that major key is default, but it is not. Intervals are regardless to key signatures. If i am playing in am and augment the 7th, i am now in the harmonic minor, and g becomes g#. When you play in a dominant key such as blues and jazz, you switch in and out of parallel minor and major. So really it is reference to a chord. Since the seventh in an a diminished chord is Gb, half-diminished is g natural, and going by my point here is that G#, which is the next monochromatic interval, and it is being added or augmented if you will, I call it augminished.
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Last edited by Bluesy... at Sep 16, 2009,
#28
Quote by Bluesy...
E-G is a m3 E-Gb is a b3. E-F# is a M2. Its all about whats written. Take a theory class. First thing your teacher will tell you is LOOK AT WHAT IS THERE.

I think daddy2foot has taken enough theory classes - E-Gb is not a b3.

E-G# is a M3 (or natural 3)
E-G is a m3 (or b3)
E-Gb is a dim3 (or a bb3)

I would tend to use major/minor/dim for intervals relative to a starting point (like E-G# is a M3) and only really use b6 etc. when describing the notes included in a scale (dorian has a b3 and b7). Not sure if that's the technical way of doing it though? anyone care to enlighten me?
That says that octaves are useless

No it doesn't. Normally an octave is defined as a perfect unison, however if in context it's appropriate you could also call it a augmented 7th since they're enharmonic.

This is no different to dim chords - you write a dim chord as 1 b3 b5 bb7. The bb7 is enharmonic to a 6 but it'd be wrong to notate it as 1 b3 b5 6 because a dim chord is built by stacking m3's and bb7 is an m3 above b5 whereas 6 is an aug2 above.

That is assuming you are in a major key and that major key is default, but it is not. Intervals are regardless to key signatures. If i am playing in am and augment the 7th, i am now in the harmonic minor, and g becomes g#.

not true - intervals are ALWAYS based on the major scale, the only thing which makes intervals relevant is that they are defined regardless of key. If i'm in Em that doesn't suddenly make G a major 3rd it's still a m3.

If you're in A natural minor and you play an Augmented 7th it's still a Augmented 7th of G## (enharmonic to A). If you raise the 7th that's a different matter, then you are raising a flattened 7th, thus making it a natural 7th, as you would have in harmonic minor. That 7th is still just a Major 7th though, not aug in any way.

So really it is reference to a chord. Since the seventh in an a diminished chord is Gb, half-diminished is g natural, and going by my point here is that G#, which is the next monochromatic interval, and it is being added or augmented if you will, I call it augminished.

m7 plus one semitone = maj7
maj7 +1 semitone = augmented 7th
=> m7 +2semitones = augmented 7th

the 7th in a dim chord is a dim7th or bb7 (bbG# = Gb)
in a half dim chord it's a m7 or b7 (bG# = G)
if you put a G# in then that is a Major 7th, not an augmented 7th
if you put a G## that is an augmented 7th.

So if you're dead set on using that definition of 'augminished' then your chord would be: A C Eb G##. Since G## is enharmonic to A though, it makes little sense to use this chord unless you have a good contextual reason to. So allowing the enharmonic to makes things simpler you have Amb5.
Last edited by doive at Sep 16, 2009,
#29
Quote by Bluesy...
E-G is a m3 E-Gb is a b3. E-F# is a M2. Its all about whats written. Take a theory class. First thing your teacher will tell you is LOOK AT WHAT IS THERE.

The einstien comment was in relevance that someone called me a nut, or along those lines.

IF there is such thing on an augminished and a dimented chord, enlighten me. That is why i started this thread, to gain knowledge.


The third of E is G#. A b3 and m3 are the same thing. The way you have it written doesn't even make sense. A major third is 4 semi-tones. Start on the open E string.

0 (E)

Go up one semi-tone.

1 (F)

Another.

2 (F#)

Again.

3 (G)

And one more time.

4. (G#)

End of story.

There is a reason that a minor chord formula is written as 1 - b3 - 5.
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Last edited by DaddyTwoFoot at Sep 16, 2009,
#30
Quote by Bluesy...
And people thought Einstein was a nut too.
General relativity, special relativity, and the photoelectric effect are a tiny bit different than

Your counter to this is going to be something like "I made up the word and Einstein made up relativity, so we're basically the same." Einstein didn't make up or invent principals of physics. That we call his theory "special relativity" doesn't mean much. Do you think that Russian physicists learn the theory in English? Do you think their calling the theory whatever they call it in Russia affects Lorentz invariance?

Back to music:
G# add(b9) seems to be the least ridiculous name for the chord. It could at least come from G# phrygian dominant. What scale has a minor third, diminished fifth, and major seventh?
#31
I agree with Sue^^

Einstein came up with mathematical equations to back up (his) theories which hold a certain reasoning where a lot of people can find logic in.

It's not like Einstein is considered a genius by (hypothetically speaking) calling for example the general relativity principle spatigra (spa-ce, ti-me, gra-vity)

Your purely coming up with a semantic thing, with the most superficial logic.

It's completely irrelevant.

Now if you (TS) figured out the chord itself as in you came up with the note combination and/or are the first to use it in a musical context and is agreed upon as a distinct and applicable musical feature, then you have something to hold your ground with.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Sep 16, 2009,
#32
bluesy...

You are right in that the numbering system is a way of denoting relationships between notes without reference to key. However, the thing to remember is that the system is ALWAYS in reference to the major scale.

The Major scale is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. All intervals are major and perfect.

So whenever you write 3 it means the note a Major Third above the root - regardless of what key you're in. Similarly 7 Always means a note a Major Seventh above the root. Even in a minor scale if you were to write 7 it would still mean a major seventh.

You are right in that ♭ means to lower a note one semitone and ♯ means to raise a note one semitone. But if you start with a minor note such as the seventh in the natural minor scale then raise it one semitone to you get a major seventh.

Here's a chart
(Invalid img)
And for reference...

3 Always means Major Third or M3
b3 is a flattened Major Third = minor third or m3
bb3 is a double flattened Major Third = diminished third or dim3
#3 is a sharpened Major Third = Augmented third

The perfect intervals are the unison the fourth the fifth and the octave. They have only...
Perfect = 5
diminished = b5
Augmented = #5

You can't have an augmented seventh because it will be enharmonic to the root and will ALWAYS sound like the root not some kind of seventh.

That being said Augminished and Dimented chords are nothing more than rhetorick. They are a combination of Augmented and Diminished but only exist as words. There are no chords.

If you're in a situation where someone get's overly complex with a grand theoretical explanation for something you feel is pretty simple you might say "I never really understood all those Augminished and Dimented chords".

If the person tries to correct you, then tell them you know what augmented and diminished chords it's the Augminished and Dimented ones that threw you off. It will baffle them and might get a good laugh if they then go out and try to figure out how to combine an augmented and diminished cord.

If you're serious about an Augminished chord 1 b3 3 b5 #5 Which would be 1 #2 3 #4 #5 which in turn would be 1 3 #5 #9 #11 or it could be 1 3 #5 bb7 (an augmented triad with a diminished seventh) but this would make more sense as an Augmented chord with an added sixth such as C+6

Dimented would be maybe 1 b3 b5 #5 but again the #5 would be better thought of as a b6 so the chord would be a diminished add b6.

The point is they are just rhetorick and you can usually find an easier way to name a chord that makes more sense. They aren't real words and theory is as much about communication as it is anything else so whatever words and theory you use to describe something it should be as accurate and as simple as possible and make it as easy as possible for someone else to quickly and easily grasp the idea you're trying to convey. The words Augminished and Dimented fail in that area because no one will know what they mean and you could use other descriptions that would be far more effective. Of course if you want to look pompous and embarass yourself - by all means use the terms as real things.

Hope that clears a few things up for you mate.

Cheers


The minor scale is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 because compare to the major scale it has a flattened third flattened sixth and flattened seventh.
The harmonic minor scale would be 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7. As you can see it's like the minor scale but with a major seventh (There is no augmented seventh).
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Sep 21, 2009,
#33
G#b9 is completely legit if you are in the key of G#. And when did the rule that when you refer to a scale that it is automatically major? Because it is the first thing everyone learns? That's horsesh1t. What if you are in a minor key? Irregardless, When you name intervals, they are irrelevant to any key. The name of the chord was just a joke that me and some theory buddies had. Regardless if there is a "better" term for all you theory people, that is a better term for me because i understand it, and so do the people that i use it around. If i invented a slang term for sh1t, like kovankles, and me and the people around me used it, it is completely legit in context.
That explaination of the augminished chord is actually the first thing that i thought of, but i couldn't find context for it. I named this augminished because it is a dim7 chord with the seventh being ##, which i decided to call an augmentation, regardless if it is a M7 in reference to the chord or not. I just think that it is funny.
And why can't i make up words. President Coolidge did this in 1927, (i think that is the correct year) he said, "...in order to attain a state of normalcy..." Normality is the correct form of the word and yet normalcy is completely fine because a president said it. Well you know what, I am now self-proclaimed president of My mind. NOW WHAT. OH. Oh. BAM.
shakazulu BAM. Taekwando, oh wait.......
I am the only sane person on the planet. Does that make me crazy?

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#34
If there's something you don't understand just ask.

By all means carry on using your made up name with your imaginary friends. It will just give anyone that has any real knowledge about music theory (and those that don't) something to laugh at.

There's nothing "augmented" about that chord so it doesn't make any sense to call it "augminished" no matter how clever you think you are for "making up" that word.

You asked for a discussion around the idea of calling that chord "augminished" - you got one. It just didn't turn out how you wanted it to. Really no need to get pissy about it - grow up dude.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Sep 18, 2009,
#35
Quote by Bluesy...
G#b9 is completely legit if you are in the key of G#. And when did the rule that when you refer to a scale that it is automatically major? Because it is the first thing everyone learns? That's horsesh1t. What if you are in a minor key?


That is the rule - i don't know precisely when it was defined - but as far as i'm aware it was certainly a convention when the equal temperament system was developed in ~1600. As with all definitions however - it doesn't matter what the "standard" is set as, so long as everyone you wish to communicate with agrees to the same standard. As you are talking on the internet then yo communicate clearly you must conform to the standards of the internet site you are on. (This is why UG allows only english posts to aid communication) [EDIT: this is why lol etc. are applicable on the internet, they are internet standards]. The "standards" of MT within this forum pretty much follow the general international music standards for western music theory, albeit with a few simplifications in places. "augminished" is not part of this standard, nor is it a technically correct name within this standard, therefore it has no relevance here - but by all means continue using it among friends/bandmates - if they understand you fine.

President Coolidge did this in 1927, (i think that is the correct year) he said, "...in order to attain a state of normalcy..." Normality is the correct form of the word and yet normalcy is completely fine because a president said it

This sounds more like an error in speech than an actual attempt to introduce a new word to the language. It would also not be accepted in a spelling test as a proper word since it's not in any dictionary i'm aware of. Also the only reason it could be used as a real word is because people knew what he meant. It had a logical derivation from the original word. Your "augminished" has a logical derivation (albeit and ambiguous one), however the way you described it's pattern of intervals does not appear to support a logical derivation, making it essentially useless to anyone but those who have read this thread and those who personally know you.
#36
Also the reason why we refer to the major scale in any context is this: You write out 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. That is taken for granted as a major scale, in C the notes would be C D E F G A B and you get a semitone between E and F and B and C. If you're calculating intervals in a minor key, do you write out 1 2 3 4 5 6 7? No, you write 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 because that is how the natural minor scale relates to the major scale, i.e. when compared to major a minor scale has a minor third (b3), minor sixth (b6) and minor seventh (b7). Same with all the other scales that everyone else uses. That's why everyone else on this site considers your "augmented seventh" a major seventh.
#37
Quote by Bluesy...
G#b9 is completely legit if you are in the key of G#. And when did the rule that when you refer to a scale that it is automatically major? Because it is the first thing everyone learns? That's horsesh1t. What if you are in a minor key? Irregardless, When you name intervals, they are irrelevant to any key. The name of the chord was just a joke that me and some theory buddies had. Regardless if there is a "better" term for all you theory people, that is a better term for me because i understand it, and so do the people that i use it around. If i invented a slang term for sh1t, like kovankles, and me and the people around me used it, it is completely legit in context.
That explaination of the augminished chord is actually the first thing that i thought of, but i couldn't find context for it. I named this augminished because it is a dim7 chord with the seventh being ##, which i decided to call an augmentation, regardless if it is a M7 in reference to the chord or not. I just think that it is funny.
And why can't i make up words. President Coolidge did this in 1927, (i think that is the correct year) he said, "...in order to attain a state of normalcy..." Normality is the correct form of the word and yet normalcy is completely fine because a president said it. Well you know what, I am now self-proclaimed president of My mind. NOW WHAT. OH. Oh. BAM.
shakazulu BAM. Taekwando, oh wait.......

People don't use G#, they use Ab. (Generally.)
Quote by dudetheman
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#38
Don't hate because we are more intelligent than you.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Sep 18, 2009,
#40
Quote by deHufter



Don't hate because I'm not as sober as you are (on friday night.

**fixed**

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Sep 18, 2009,
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