#2
minor 9th chord formula = R,b3,5,b7,9

a number of voicings are possible
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#3
i think by low you mean flat? In which case a m9 chord has a major second in.
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#4
Quote by Ribcage
i think by low you mean flat? In which case a m9 chord has a major second in.

so a minor nine doesn't actually have a minor nine? that's misleading
#5
Quote by emily92
so a minor nine doesn't actually have a minor nine? that's misleading


The minor is in reference to the quality of the chord and affects the 3rd and 7th scale degrees. All extensions past 7 are assumed to be major unless noted otherwise. A chord like that with a m9 would be (for example) Bmb9. The b9 means the 9th degree is lowered a half step, giving you a minor ninth (second).
#6
Quote by timeconsumer09
The minor is in reference to the quality of the chord and affects the 3rd and 7th scale degrees. All extensions past 7 are assumed to be major unless noted otherwise. A chord like that with a m9 would be (for example) Bmb9. The b9 means the 9th degree is lowered a half step, giving you a minor ninth (second).

alright thanks you guys are helpful
#7
Quote by timeconsumer09
The minor is in reference to the quality of the chord and affects the 3rd and 7th scale degrees. All extensions past 7 are assumed to be major unless noted otherwise. A chord like that with a m9 would be (for example) Bmb9. The b9 means the 9th degree is lowered a half step, giving you a minor ninth (second).


You should actually use Bm7b9, as Bmb9 would imply 1, b3, 5, b9.
#8
Quote by isaac_bandits
You should actually use Bm7b9, as Bmb9 would imply 1, b3, 5, b9.


^ I think that would be a Bmaddb9

but yeah, Bm7b9 would be the correct way to label R b3 5 b7 b9.

Quote by emily92
so a minor nine doesn't actually have a minor nine? that's misleading


Well it's a minor 7 chord (1 b3 5 b7) + a 9th

It's just a matter of understanding chord construction. Some things don't seem to make sense at 1st. You'll get it if you keep studying.
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Sep 16, 2009,
#9
It's a weird notation, but it's what we use. Notes past the seventh are generally accepted to be major unless noted otherwise. For instance, Xm6 contains 1 b3 5 6. If you play a flat sixth, you're playing a pretty chord, but it's usually better to call it a major seventh chord with a different root. Ex. Am(b6) -> Fmaj7.

All I've left out is the 11th, but that's the fourth and a fourth is neither major nor minor, so Xm11 shouldn't cause any confusion about what happens to the fourth.

Edit: A typo was corrected.
Last edited by bangoodcharlote at Sep 16, 2009,
#10
Quote by bangoodcharlote
It's a weird notation, but it's what we use. Notes past the seventh are generally accepted to be major unless noted otherwise. For instance, Xm9 contains 1 b3 5 6.


^I'm not sure I understand you. 1 b3 5 6 is m6 chord

Xm9 = R b3 5 b7 9
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#11
Quote by isaac_bandits
You should actually use Bm7b9, as Bmb9 would imply 1, b3, 5, b9.


i thought adding a 9th implied a b7? e.g. A9 = A C# E G B = 1 3 5 b7 9
or am i wrong about it? or is it different for x (b9)?

Quote by timeconsumer09
The minor is in reference to the quality of the chord and affects the 3rd and 7th scale degrees.

Again with my confusion - i didn't think a major/minor affected the 7th - i assumed that was always dominant unless otherwise stated?
A7 = A b7
Am7 = Am b7
Last edited by doive at Sep 17, 2009,
#12
Quote by doive
i thought adding a 9th implied a b7? e.g. A9 = A C# E G B = 1 3 5 b7 9
or am i wrong about it? or is it different for x (b9)?


Again with my confusion - i didn't think a major/minor affected the 7th - i assumed that was always dominant unless otherwise stated?
A7 = A b7
Am7 = Am b7


If a chord is minor, the seventh will always be a minor 7th unless otherwise stated. If a chord is major, it will either be notated as x7 for dominant 7 (containing a m7) or maj7 (containing a M7). An xm chord will never be assumed to have a maj7 unless you notate it as xm/maj7.
#13
Quote by doive
i thought adding a 9th implied a b7? e.g. A9 = A C# E G B = 1 3 5 b7 9
or am i wrong about it? or is it different for x (b9)?


Again with my confusion - i didn't think a major/minor affected the 7th - i assumed that was always dominant unless otherwise stated?
A7 = A b7
Am7 = Am b7



Saying that is misleading.

If you add a 9, you just add a 9 (ie. Cadd9)

It won't imply adding a 7th, because if you would build this chord on the root, then the b7 would be non diatonic, and hence the chord wouldn't be the root chord any more which would flaw the entire key if you'd assume that.

I Don't understand what you mean with ur 2nd query;

If you add a 7 behind the chord as a ?suffix?, then it's always a dominant chord.

I will give some formulas, which you probably already know, but just give for pre-thinking purposes on my side.

7 = 1, 3, 5, b7
M7 = 1, 3, 5, 7
m7 = 1, b3, 5, b7
mM7 = 1, b3, 5, 7

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#14
to clarify - my first was does C9 contain a b7 or not (i know Cadd9 doesn't)

my second question
does suffixing a 7 always mean a b7. i always play A7 as an A major with a b7. from what timey seems to say you should clarify between Adom7 and Amaj7 which i never bother to do. to me it's a dominant7th unless otherwise written.
#15
Quote by doive
to clarify - my first was does C9 contain a b7 or not (i know Cadd9 doesn't)

my second question
does suffixing a 7 always mean a b7. i always play A7 as an A major with a b7. from what timey seems to say you should clarify between Adom7 and Amaj7 which i never bother to do. to me it's a dominant7th unless otherwise written.



Yes C9 always contains a 7th.

C9 without a 7th does not exist, because then it would just be a Cadd9.

An A7 always indicates a major triad with an added b7.

You already clarifying it by saying A7, and not any of the other three 7th chords.

An A7 is never used as a name for a major 7th chord (or any other (7th) chord for that matter)

In informal context though, one might say that you should "play the 7th on top of the tonic triad". Given it's in a major key, it's safe to assume he means the major 7th, and you just need to use common sense for this.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Sep 17, 2009,
#16
Quote by doive
i thought adding a 9th implied a b7? e.g. A9 = A C# E G B = 1 3 5 b7 9
or am i wrong about it?
Like someone else said adding a ninth is simply adding a ninth. Extending to a ninth implies a seven is present.
Aadd9 = add chord A major with added 9 (no seventh present)
A9 = extended chord A major / minor 7 with added major 9
Quote by doive
or is it different for x (b9)?
As has been mentioned the extensions above the seventh are always assumed major unless otherwise noted. If you alter one of the notes then you have an altered extended chord. In order to notate the alterations you would normally write the chord name and list the alterations after that. For example if it's an A Major seventh with a sharp nine you would write it AMaj7#9 or AMaj7(b9). If it's an extended chord such as an A major 13th with a b11 you would write AMaj13b11 or AMaj13(b11). So basically include any normal extensions and note any alterations. AMaj9(#11) or whatever...

Quote by doive
Again with my confusion - i didn't think a major/minor affected the 7th - i assumed that was always dominant unless otherwise stated?
A7 = A b7
Am7 = Am b7
First off the seventh isn't dominant unless stated otherwise. A 7th interval can't be dominant. It can only be diminished, minor, or major. I get what you mean though.

To answer your question - Yes and No. Minor notation in a chord name doesn't affect the 7th but a Major notation in a chord name does affect the 7. The 7 is a funny one like that. When naming chords the seventh interval is assumed minor unless stated otherwise.

The reason for this is that the base triad is assumed Major unless otherwise noted and you need to notate when it is minor. If the seventh is the opposite it makes it easier since if there is a minor notation we know it applies to the base triad while if there is a Major notation we know it applies to the seventh.

Hence,
AMaj7 = A triad assumed major with a Major seventh
A7 = A triad assumed major with a seventh assumed minor = a dominant seventh chord (called such because the only place you will find this seventh chord in the major diatonic scale is on the dominant or V degree).
Am7 = A minor triad and the seventh is assumed minor.

Make sense?

All other scale degrees are assumed major unless noted otherwise. So when you get an extended chord such as A9 it's an extended chord so there is a seventh present. The A is assumed major the seventh is assumed minor and the ninth is assumed major.
1 3 5 b7 9
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Sep 18, 2009,
#17
Quote by doive
does suffixing a 7 always mean a b7. i always play A7 as an A major with a b7. from what timey seems to say you should clarify between Adom7 and Amaj7 which i never bother to do. to me it's a dominant7th unless otherwise written.
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Nope. It works that way for major and minor chords, but what about when you alter the other note of the basic triad, the fifth? You end up with diminished and augmented chords. Cdim7 implies a bb7, which is enharmonic to a sixth. Caug7 implies b7, though.

You can also flatten the fifth of a major chord (1 3 b5) and sharpen the fifth of a minor chord (1 3 #5). The former is denoted by X(b5), so X7(b5) implies b7 and Xmaj7(b5) implies, well, you take a guess. (You'll probably get it on the first try.) Xm(#5) denotes the latter. However, let's try an example with A. The notes are A C E#. That's enharmonic to an F major chord, so the #5 is kind of ridiculous in a minor chord. (b6 is different, though it is generally better expressed as a maj7 chord...I'll let you spend some time thinking about this, but post if you're befuddled.)

Edit: The lesson-don't listen to me when it comes to jazz.
Last edited by bangoodcharlote at Sep 17, 2009,
#18
Quote by bangoodcharlote
(You'll love this.)
Caug7 implies maj7.


Caug7 = C E G# Bb not C E G# B
#19
Quote by bangoodcharlote
(You'll love this.)

Nope. It works that way for major and minor chords, but what about when you alter the other note of the basic triad, the fifth? You end up with diminished and augmented chords. Cdim7 implies a bb7, which is enharmonic to a sixth. Caug7 implies b7, though.

You can also flatten the fifth of a major chord (1 3 b5) and sharpen the fifth of a minor chord (1 3 #5). The former is denoted by X(b5), so X7(b5) implies b7 and Xmaj7(b5) implies, well, you take a guess. (You'll probably get it on the first try.) Xm(#5) denotes the latter. However, let's try an example with A. The notes are A C E#. That's enharmonic to an F major chord, so the #5 is kind of ridiculous in a minor chord. (b6 is different, though it is generally better expressed as a maj7 chord...I'll let you spend some time thinking about this, but post if you're befuddled.)

Edit: The lesson-don't listen to me when it comes to jazz.

Ahhh the dim7. good call. dim refers to both the triad and the seventh as both are diminished making it a fully diminished seventh chord. A half diminished of course has a diminished triad with a minor 7 - only one of the two are diminished - one of two is a half so it's half diminished.

I forgot all about the dim7 in my last post.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Sep 18, 2009,