#1
a very contested issue. my teacher, who studies, and consequently teachers me, bebop styled soloing, swears by following every chord change with its corresponding arpeggio, only roots, 3rds, 5ths, and 7ths being heard, also extended notes. he said that his teacher taught him he shouldnt even use scales of any sort in his jazz soloing.

but in theory classes at school, you learn about following changes with the modal approach, assigning a chord a particular mode.

i still obviously am in my formative stage of jazz soloing, and don't have a true grasp of the advantages and disadvantages of each. so, to people who have good knowledge of each, which is ultimately more practical?
#2
Quote by thegloaming
a very contested issue. my teacher, who studies, and consequently teachers me, bebop styled soloing, swears by following every chord change with its corresponding arpeggio, only roots, 3rds, 5ths, and 7ths being heard, also extended notes. he said that his teacher taught him he shouldnt even use scales of any sort in his jazz soloing.

but in theory classes at school, you learn about following changes with the modal approach, assigning a chord a particular mode.

i still obviously am in my formative stage of jazz soloing, and don't have a true grasp of the advantages and disadvantages of each. so, to people who have good knowledge of each, which is ultimately more practical?

I don't see anything wrong with that.
#3
I personally find it easier to dispense with scales almost entirely and follow the chords, with corresponding arpeggios. However, you need to be at least aware of the parent scale that these arpeggios are coming from, as this will better enable you to link your ideas etc etc. So basically, you want both, but modes are overkill for me.
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#4
i think it would depend on how many chages there are. if its a basic progression, you might not even need to change scales at all for each chord. some may have lots of changes that are also quick so it would make more sense for arpeggios and extensions. i dont think anyone should think in terms of "either or". do what works for the situation, not what your teacher believes is "right".

personally, i dont do TOO much jazz, but i like changing scales for chords instead of playing straight chord tones. although i will hit some if i see fit.
#6
From my understanding of both techniques, they yield similar results. Trusting your teacher, I'd guess that most bebop guitarists use his technique, while the latter technique is a more universal jazz approach. Then again, I don't play Jazz.

Also, is your username supposed to be the Radiohead song or the Counterstrike surf map?
i don't know why i feel so dry
#8
I think you should just consider how the newer modal approach to jazz evolved from the bebop style. The bebop method (as you describe it) adds far more structure to the solo as you're playing chord tones... but if you're good with the modal approach all you're trying to do is enhance that with other notes which are not chord tones. It's not really like it's a whole new thing, you should still be stressing the chord tones, it can just make it smoother.

I think it's pretty nice that your teacher is so strict though, it'll really help you add structure to your solos, but if you want to add extra notes because you don't have quite the range of notes you feel you'd like... well that's how the modal approach evolved.
#9
the three areas you need to know i soloing are: scales, arps, and guid tones. i used to play very arp based and i thought i was the shizz, but as soon as i got into a music school my weaknesses became painfully obvious. so anyway on any given chord its ideal to know what scales to play (e.g dorian etc) the 7th arp, and the two guid tones, all of those things all over the neck. the main disadvantage of arp soling is melodic it aint, but it is harmonically secure, so to get ultimate control you need to be able to visualize all these things very quickly and accurately, it takes a little while but its worth it.

p.s. how did you guys manage without me?
Originally Posted by jmac72187
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#10
Quote by Archeo Avis 2
p.s. how did you guys manage without me?


An impersonator of one of our most respected and knowledgeable regulars?

I'm quite certain everyone is happier when you're not here.

Uneducated people who want to learn are one thing, but you? You refuse to learn, act as though you know everything, pretend to be someone infinitely better than you, and then act like we all love. That's utterly awful.
#11
I actually think he's pretty funny. It's beyond me why he hasn't been banned (apparently a consistent troll isn't a troll anymore..?) but I'm enjoying it while he lasts.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#13
the whole academic approach of "play this scale over this chord" is BS. Everything you need resides in the basic major scale, and it's 5 fingerings that cover the neck.

each fingering can be viewed like a piano. say for example the key of C. the notes in the major scale are all the white keys on the piano, 7 white keys. then you have the 5 outside notes of the scale which are the black keys.

it's all about making small melodies over the chord progression. Having the whole "this scale over this chord" approach is too much thinking, the goal is to make music.

the truth is, you can play any of the 12 tones anywhere, it all depends on how you integrate them in your melody.

the important thing is to be able to associate the sound each note makes with your fingers. not whether you are playing a superlocrian pentatonic scale from mars.

the names of the scales are good to know for sure, but the only way you will be able to understand why those scales work etc is to first be able to hear it.
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#14
Quote by rich2k4
the whole academic approach of "play this scale over this chord" is BS. Everything you need resides in the basic major scale, and it's 5 fingerings that cover the neck.

each fingering can be viewed like a piano. say for example the key of C. the notes in the major scale are all the white keys on the piano, 7 white keys. then you have the 5 outside notes of the scale which are the black keys.

it's all about making small melodies over the chord progression. Having the whole "this scale over this chord" approach is too much thinking, the goal is to make music.

the truth is, you can play any of the 12 tones anywhere, it all depends on how you integrate them in your melody.

the important thing is to be able to associate the sound each note makes with your fingers. not whether you are playing a superlocrian pentatonic scale from mars.

the names of the scales are good to know for sure, but the only way you will be able to understand why those scales work etc is to first be able to hear it.
This really isn't true. One major scale is not going to work over an entire song. You only need to know about 4 scales and how they work to be able to play over anything though
#15
Quote by isaac_bandits


Uneducated people who want to learn are one thing .

i guess it isnt a big deal, but im willing to assert that I'm not "uneducated". i have a good knowledge of intervals, triad/chord construction, scales/modes, arpeggios, etc.

if you could use something such as "someone who hasnt been in formal training or music school as long as I have", i wouldnt have any issue, but id prefer if you didnt equate me with one of the kids wanking in E minor at guitar center with no concept of what he's playing
#16
Really good question, I wish I had a good answer. I would assume no one is going to throw in jail for mixing the two styles. It would also depend a lot on the tune your playing. Some tunes are gonna sound great with a bebop chordal style of playing, and others will lend themselves to more melodic scale based stuff. My only advise is don't limit yourself, and listen to all the great guys of both styles and some crossover artists and see how they do it.
#17
Quote by thegloaming
i guess it isnt a big deal, but im willing to assert that I'm not "uneducated". i have a good knowledge of intervals, triad/chord construction, scales/modes, arpeggios, etc.

if you could use something such as "someone who hasnt been in formal training or music school as long as I have", i wouldnt have any issue, but id prefer if you didnt equate me with one of the kids wanking in E minor at guitar center with no concept of what he's playing


Oh Sorry. I wasn't aiming that at you. I was just completely taking the piss out on the troll, and that wasn't aimed at anyone, it was more of a "this troll is worse than the worst".

And I'd assume that with the question you asked you have a good idea of what you are doing, and thus wouldn't be considered "uneducated".
#18
Quote by rockinrider55
This really isn't true. One major scale is not going to work over an entire song. You only need to know about 4 scales and how they work to be able to play over anything though


i never said one scale fits over a whole tune. you learn the 5 shapes of the major scale in all 12 keys, and then you change key centers in a tune when it calls for it. you only need to learn these 5 fingerings, nothing else. no need to learn a lot of different fingerings for the 1000's of scales that exist. the 5 shapes are the same for all 12 keys, so if you change key centers in a tune, you are still playing fingerings that you are familiar with.

take a ii-V-I in the key of C Dm7-G7-Cmaj7

take a shape of the c major scale, such as:

E: 3 5
B: 3 5 6
G: 2 4 5
D: 2 3 5
A: 2 3 5
E: 3 5

and work on making melodies over the progression. start simple, with 2-3 note phrases with various rhythmic variations. Inside this shape you have of course the 7 inside "white key" tones. the 5 outside "black keys" and the arpeggios of the key. everything you need. you can use the arpeggios inside the shape to create lines. Dm7 arpeggio, cmaj7 arpeggio etc. focus on listening to what each note sounds like in various spots in the progression. get these sounds in your head. Also there is nothing that says you have to play a dm7 arpeggio over a dm7 chord. play it over the G7 or the Cmaj7. Play a Cmaj7 arpeggio over the dm7 or G7. again the important thing is what does it sound like?

after you get good using the inside tones to create your ideas and melodies, you can start incorporating the 5 outside tones. F# C# Bb Eb Ab

start with one outside note at a time and spend at least a week on each outside tone. for example C#, that's the easiest to hear at first. practice incorporating the C# into your lines over the ii-V-I on its own, the note sounds a little dissonant, but by incorporating it into a line you can make it sound good. practice playing it over the dm7 chord, trying to hear what it sounds like, same with playing it over the G7 and the Cmaj7. associating the sound with your fingers. Do drills where you say to yourself "ok i'm only going to play C# on the dm7 chord, everything else wll be the 7 inside tones" or "i'm only going to use C# over G7" etc

again, the most important thing about this is WHAT DOES IT SOUND LIKE? you want to be able to practice this so much, that you will be able to associate the sound with your fingers, and be able to recognize that sound in other places.

i can guarantee you that the pro jazz players did not learn to play by someone telling them "dm7 you play d dorian, G7 you play G mixolydian" i honestly do not know how anyone can make music with that kind of thinking. It's too much thinking, and by the time you thought of what scale to play over what chord, it's already passed by and a new chord is being played.

there is the academic way of playing jazz which gets most people confused and frustrated. and then there is what you can call the "street" way of playing jazz, which most if not all the pro's learned. saxophone players learn to associate the sound with their fingers, same approach here.

you can take it or leave it
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#19
Quote by rockinrider55
This really isn't true. One major scale is not going to work over an entire song. You only need to know about 4 scales and how they work to be able to play over anything though

Bollocks - 90& of the time one scale will not only work perfectly over an entire song, it's also what the artist actually did when they wrote it.
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#20

Bollocks - 90& of the time one scale will not only work perfectly over an entire song, it's also what the artist actually did when they wrote it.


Not in jazz it won't. =/ . I mean, sure, in autumn leaves you can use one scale through out, but in any slightly more complicated piece with key changes you have to change with the chords. I mean, you can use the major scale over the progression and not think about anything else, but every time there's a key change you're going to have to shift with it too. You already know this though.


I'm more of a fan of the chord tone approach, but that's because I'm a pretty bad player and I find myself soloing more comfortably is I'm always aware of where my thirds and sevenths are (guide tones). I'll use runs out of the scale, but I'm always trying to think of my thirds and my sevenths.
Last edited by Confusius at Sep 20, 2009,
#21
There's your other 10% then
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#22
Quote by rich2k4
i never said one scale fits over a whole tune. you learn the 5 shapes of the major scale in all 12 keys, and then you change key centers in a tune when it calls for it. you only need to learn these 5 fingerings, nothing else. no need to learn a lot of different fingerings for the 1000's of scales that exist. the 5 shapes are the same for all 12 keys, so if you change key centers in a tune, you are still playing fingerings that you are familiar with.

take a ii-V-I in the key of C Dm7-G7-Cmaj7

take a shape of the c major scale, such as:

E: 3 5
B: 3 5 6
G: 2 4 5
D: 2 3 5
A: 2 3 5
E: 3 5

and work on making melodies over the progression. start simple, with 2-3 note phrases with various rhythmic variations. Inside this shape you have of course the 7 inside "white key" tones. the 5 outside "black keys" and the arpeggios of the key. everything you need. you can use the arpeggios inside the shape to create lines. Dm7 arpeggio, cmaj7 arpeggio etc. focus on listening to what each note sounds like in various spots in the progression. get these sounds in your head. Also there is nothing that says you have to play a dm7 arpeggio over a dm7 chord. play it over the G7 or the Cmaj7. Play a Cmaj7 arpeggio over the dm7 or G7. again the important thing is what does it sound like?

after you get good using the inside tones to create your ideas and melodies, you can start incorporating the 5 outside tones. F# C# Bb Eb Ab

start with one outside note at a time and spend at least a week on each outside tone. for example C#, that's the easiest to hear at first. practice incorporating the C# into your lines over the ii-V-I on its own, the note sounds a little dissonant, but by incorporating it into a line you can make it sound good. practice playing it over the dm7 chord, trying to hear what it sounds like, same with playing it over the G7 and the Cmaj7. associating the sound with your fingers. Do drills where you say to yourself "ok i'm only going to play C# on the dm7 chord, everything else wll be the 7 inside tones" or "i'm only going to use C# over G7" etc

again, the most important thing about this is WHAT DOES IT SOUND LIKE? you want to be able to practice this so much, that you will be able to associate the sound with your fingers, and be able to recognize that sound in other places.

i can guarantee you that the pro jazz players did not learn to play by someone telling them "dm7 you play d dorian, G7 you play G mixolydian" i honestly do not know how anyone can make music with that kind of thinking. It's too much thinking, and by the time you thought of what scale to play over what chord, it's already passed by and a new chord is being played.

there is the academic way of playing jazz which gets most people confused and frustrated. and then there is what you can call the "street" way of playing jazz, which most if not all the pro's learned. saxophone players learn to associate the sound with their fingers, same approach here.

you can take it or leave it


what if there are substituted chords, and/or chords taken from melodic and harmonic minors?

WHERE IS YOUR MAJOR SCALE NOW?!
#24
It all depends on what you listen to and what you play I guess.
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