Page 1 of 2
#1
is this possible to do? I though it would be a really cool idea to make a metal album with quarter step intervals instead of half step
5150 III 100W, Mesa 4x12 Cab, Framus Cobra Cab, M-Audio Profire 610, ISA One Pre, SC607-b, Equator D5's, Countryman Type 85 Di box, Radial JCR, Superior Drummer, SSD 4 Ex, TS9, NS-2 and the list goes on and on
#3
it's absolutely pointless, just like tuning your guitar half a step up. Yes, up.
#5
Quote by grimms
it's absolutely pointless, just like tuning your guitar half a step up. Yes, up.


how is it like tuning your guitar a half step up? your still going a half step, not a quarter step. And that guitar is pretty rediculous lol. Is that yours?
5150 III 100W, Mesa 4x12 Cab, Framus Cobra Cab, M-Audio Profire 610, ISA One Pre, SC607-b, Equator D5's, Countryman Type 85 Di box, Radial JCR, Superior Drummer, SSD 4 Ex, TS9, NS-2 and the list goes on and on
#7
I'm guessing 42, twice that of a normal strat?

That's a pretty damn cool guitar...
Quote by Liberation
Every time I see your avatar I want to slit your neck with a butterknife. Goddamn Pingu.
#8
Quote by muckypup
How many frets does this thing have?


can`t you count (47) may have miscounted lol (silly touchpad on my laptop).
#10
Quote by pwrmax


How could you even play that? At the high end of the neck there's practically no gap between the frets!
Fender Lite Ash --> TC Polytune --> Digitech Whammy V --> MXR Phase 90 --> EHX Small Clone --> Strymon Orbit --> TC Flashback X4 --> Rivera R55
#11
Quote by Section 5
How could you even play that? At the high end of the neck there's practically no gap between the frets!


I don't think I would even be able to go past the tenth fret , the gaps are just so small. With a slide though you might be able to get into the tiny frets.
#14
Quote by Section 5
How could you even play that? At the high end of the neck there's practically no gap between the frets!


It won't be difficult to play at all.
As long as the string is pressed down behind the fret you want, the note will play.
Even pushing on other frets, you'll still get the note you want, and the tiny spaces will help get just lower.
Sunn O))):
Quote by Doppelgänger
You could always just sleep beside your refrigerator.

Guitar:
- Ibanez S670FM w/ JB
- Fender 'Lite Ash' Stratocaster
- Fender '72 Deluxe Telecaster
- Arbiter LP Jr. Doublecut
Amp:
- Laney VC15

'72 Tele Appreciation Group
RIP DIO
#16
Quote by The Switch
Buy a fretless guitar instead, then you can play any false note you want.


I gotta agree, a fretless might be easier than having so many frets crammed onto the board.
#17
OP, Do you know what you're asking? Double the amount of frets for one octave which is twelve frets worth.
Always tin your strings.

_____

Don't be afraid to be honest.
#18
Quote by Section 5
How could you even play that? At the high end of the neck there's practically no gap between the frets!

Tapping with the pick maybe?
#19
Quote by Zoot Allures
^ Which raises the point that if you wanna go between notes then just buy a slide


exactly
Control your destiny.
#20
Quote by Gargoyle2500
OP, Do you know what you're asking? Double the amount of frets for one octave which is twelve frets worth.


I dont understand what your asking? there are 12 frets in an octave (unless i've had it wrong for years?!) so making 24 frets per octave, wont that make quarter steps?
5150 III 100W, Mesa 4x12 Cab, Framus Cobra Cab, M-Audio Profire 610, ISA One Pre, SC607-b, Equator D5's, Countryman Type 85 Di box, Radial JCR, Superior Drummer, SSD 4 Ex, TS9, NS-2 and the list goes on and on
#21
Fretless.
Quote by bendystraw
what's pron?


EDIT: i googled it, you guys are gross.


a2m/gape/murder/suicide/farrakhan/braziliancakefarts/bugera
#22
Quote by Tig Bitties
so making 24 frets per octave, wont that make quarter steps?

Yes, that's correct. Assuming you're referring to having an extra fret between each fret.

EDIT: Assuming this is the kind of music you're interested in playing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdcgm4lcxWE
Last edited by pwrmax at Sep 22, 2009,
#23
Bend or get a fretless.
Gibson SG Diablo . Fender Cali Series Strat . Modded Epi Firebird . Seagull 25th Anniv. CW
Korg Pitchblack > Vox V847 >
Big Muff π TW >
Boss OC-3 > Memory Boy
Vox AD50VT
#25
This has been done with an entire opera. I know that opera does not involve guitars, but a 24 note octave does NOT sound pleasing to the human ear. The opera utterly failed. It might be a bit of a novelty at first, but it will sound like crap after a while. I've heard a piano that was tuned to half steps... and dang, the sound sucked!
#26
Dear lord I only came in here to laugh at the OP... but that guitar is incredible.

I doubt many guitarists could actually get their head around playing it though, especially the sort of guitarist who thinks in terms of frets instead of notes.
#27
Quote by Nate.K
This has been done with an entire opera. I know that opera does not involve guitars, but a 24 note octave does NOT sound pleasing to the human ear. The opera utterly failed. It might be a bit of a novelty at first, but it will sound like crap after a while. I've heard a piano that was tuned to half steps... and dang, the sound sucked!

It doesn't sound "pleasent" to a western ear, not a "human ear" there is a big difference.


Dave Fiuczynski has a quarter step guitar (all guitars are half step btw but I know what you're getting at) and a 1/6th note guitar, along with his fretless stuff... Just look up microtonal music on google, it's quite a thriving underground community.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He68joAxd48

skip to 5:25 for quarter tones... before that he's playing fretless.

A picture of his 1/6th note beast:





EDIT: It might not be 1/6th notes actually... I'm working from memory there
For sale: Early 1985 Ibanez AH10 (Allan Holdsworth signature model) PM for details
Last edited by power freak at Sep 23, 2009,
#28
I recommend you look into fretless guitars.
Guitars

- Epiphone Les Paul Standard Ebony Finish
- Hohner Hc-06 Classical guitar

Amplifiers

-Roland Cube 30x
Effects
- Vox Wah-wah
#29
Quote by Nate.K
This has been done with an entire opera. I know that opera does not involve guitars, but a 24 note octave does NOT sound pleasing to the human ear. The opera utterly failed. It might be a bit of a novelty at first, but it will sound like crap after a while. I've heard a piano that was tuned to half steps... and dang, the sound sucked!


Actually I'm listening to some quarter-tonal music right now... I find it very interesting sonically and the effect it can add to some musical ideas is brilliant.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you can go making crazy assumptions about the "human ear".
R.I.P. My Signature. Lost to us in the great Signature Massacre of 2014.

Quote by Master Foo
“A man who mistakes secrets for knowledge is like a man who, seeking light, hugs a candle so closely that he smothers it and burns his hand.”


Album.
Legion.
#30
Quote by Nate.K
This has been done with an entire opera. I know that opera does not involve guitars, but a 24 note octave does NOT sound pleasing to the human ear. The opera utterly failed. It might be a bit of a novelty at first, but it will sound like crap after a while. I've heard a piano that was tuned to half steps... and dang, the sound sucked!

Again, to agree with some others. Listening to it now, it is very much what I look for in music. Expression and emotion.
Maybe you should stick to your major scale and greenday.
Been in Japan since August, no fucking money left!
#31
Can someone recommend a guitar that is quarter step?
Been in Japan since August, no fucking money left!
#32
Hello Everyone, I found this thread and thought I would elaborate.

As for the metal band Idea- its being done!!! www.lastsacrament.com < prepare yourselves!

as for how to obtain this kind of guitar: www.swordguitars.com

I am a luthier, I also teach for a living and write books for these guitars.
I have written ten books so far detailing scales using arabic maqams, dastgahs, ragas, byzantine, and many other historical non diatonic scales - tons and too manyto name - ha!

each of my books is about 300 pages of scales - so each guitar approximates better (or worse) differnet cultural music found around the world.

I originally was interested in these guitars for their dissonance, and how evil I could make my metal. But I learned quickly about intonation and just intonation , and about the psycho acoustical phenomenons surrounding......

Since then- I've been invited and lectured various schools, Berklee college of music , and international conferences on just intonation scales - one for example - is a non-octave scale called the bohlen-pierce scale. Instead of an octave or 2/1 you have a tritave, or 3/1 and it stretched your ears for another worldly sound.

So these guitars with their multiple divisions - actuall approximate these string division ratios a little better - like for example my 31-tone to the octave guitar (62 fret totally playable as well) is has a better approximation of the harmonic 7th than 12 tones does....which means you can play power chords basically using 7th, or "harmonically stable" chords built fromthe 7th degree..... This of course opens another world of arpeggios, progressions etc. On a standard guitar, the 3rd, and 5th are considered the only harmonically stable tones which chords should be built from....all other tones in your scale you may have heard been called "color tones" like the 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, ...except now your have more harmonic possibilities and theyre actually pleasing to the ear !!

One of my favorite things about 31-tones was it's approximation to the ancient greek enharmonic scale. I became interested in this after watching harry partch and listening to his studies in these scales... It's like an entire world of expression we left completely out in western music - I like to think of the progression of dissonance in the 31 tone system to go like this : Diatonic genre, Chromatic genre, Enharmonic genre..... So you can imagine- its like another blues!!!!!

I currently play 15,16,18,19,21,24,31, tones to the octave and bohlen pierce guitars

I did this because the 12-tone guitar was designed to play church music basically to put it blunt. the 12-tone scale best approximates the Major scale and it's inversion - Bach knew this...... but even he didnt use the 12-tone equal but a slightly different version. Some historians of music claim that exhibiting or playing Bach on a standard piano is like blasphemy and "exhibiting paintings by rembrandt with wax paper over them"..


In the metal band we use 9-string guitars I built they can be viewd at the swordguitars.com image gallery... Last Sacrament will be touring soon to promote the album we've been working on for quite some time now.....


Seeing this board talking about the guitars is truly inspiring for me and I thank you all.

About playing them: it's very easy and possible, and you can still play arpeggios, fast lines, and tapped inversion arpeggios as well. more tones simply means more colors, more expression, and of course usually more dissonance and consonance as well.

get into contact with me if you're interested I can convert guitars at a reasonable price and of course can master-build a custom 9-10 string fully MIDI capable if need be.
- Ron Sword
#33
If your guitar allowed you to play 24 notes in an octave, it would have two notes for every traditional one. People have made weird instruments over the years that have three or four notes between, say, A and A#, but they don't lend themselves to traditional western music because those weird notes just don't fit in. They would likely sound extremely dissonant.

Interesting-looking guitar, though.
Last edited by FatalGear41 at Nov 12, 2009,
#34
Quote by FatalGear41
If your guitar allowed you to play 24 notes in an octave, it would have two notes for every traditional one. People have made weird instruments over the years that have three or four notes between, say, A and A#, but they don't lend themselves to traditional western music because those weird notes just don't fit in. They would likely sound extremely dissonant.

Interesting-looking guitar, though.



Fatal Gear:

Actually the 31-tone scale was a meantone scale --which is exactly the type of scale that western music developed from! A Classical piece performed in a subset of 12 tones out of 31 tones sounds much more like the pieces originally sounded. It may be very subtle difference to listener but to the performer it's an obvious difference.

31-tone has 1/5th tones, and is extremely consonant in comparison with a quartertone 24-tone guitar. Quartertone guitars sound dissonant because they are simply another division of the same 12-tone scale. This is why I suspect westerners became unhappy with more divisions......However you will find that the intervals in say the 31-tone system are very consonant - and they're are also ways to make consonant quartertone systems as well, just not basing the framework within 12-tones. Anything non divisible by 3,6,4 or 12 will sound generally "out there" in comparison to 12 tones. But in most cases these divisions fall in line with "higher consonances" for example perfect twelfths (haven't heard of that interval have you?), etc.


plenty of western composers have used both quarter-tone and just intonation as well as non-12 tone scales. these include ivan wyshcnegradsky, charles ives, stockhausen, iannis xenakis, george crumb, alois haba, and many many many more.
The sound is more futuristic and evolved.

The availability of more dissonance means you simply have more emotion. Imagine what the diatonic scale would sound like without any diminished chords. Now imagine those diminished chord being stronger, and your consonances being stronger....This is the best way to explain it
#37
Quote by Ron Sword
Fatal Gear:

Actually the 31-tone scale was a meantone scale --which is exactly the type of scale that western music developed from! A Classical piece performed in a subset of 12 tones out of 31 tones sounds much more like the pieces originally sounded. It may be very subtle difference to listener but to the performer it's an obvious difference.



You are absolutely correct. However, I was referring only to octaves as they are played on a traditional guitar. Traditional western music - and by that, I mean anything you are liable to run into during the last two or three hundred years, is still based on 12 notes per octave (Piano, Guitar, etc.). Notes that fall between any of the 12-note octave may give you more room to express yourself, but it certainly isn't going to comport with anything you are likely to hear or have heard in western music. You would also run into problems trying to write for such music, as there is no way to write for such interim notes in traditional fashion on the grand staff. How would you write the notes between A and A#?

It is also going to sound weird when you try to play such notes with other instruments in a traditional western format. Yes, such music exists, but it is relegated to the esoteric. The fact that such music has never attained mainstream acceptance does not diminish its artistic value, but it does speak to its limited appeal.

I appreciate the comments, though. and i will be the first to admit that you know a great deal more about this subject, and about music theory, than I do.
Last edited by FatalGear41 at Nov 13, 2009,
#38
ron, thanks heaps for putting the time into replying! have you got any songs you have recorded with last sacrament available to listen to? id love to hear it in a metal context.
#39
Quote by FatalGear41
as there is no way to write for such interim notes in traditional fashion on the grand staff. How would you write the notes between A and A#?

.



There are a few great books on this - One 20th Century microtonal notation - Sagittal notation can take care of pretty much any notation. The tuning books I made I originally made for myself then I realized that no one has made microtonal notation and guitar scale books before - and finished them meticulously. I also realize its kind of hard to go to guitar stores these days and find a decent theory book with essays, and mind stimulating musical activities like they used to back in the day - "pat martino" "ted greene" etc... or a good 3 note per string modal method that teaches simple theory to someone "at that age" ready for it.


Check this out - If my memory serves me well the 5 line staff was developed out of meantone tuning and the 5 accidentals in the tuning....

One way to notate is to either double flat, or to cross the sharp 3 times instead of only 2. Another example is to make a special symbol such as theorists like Adriaan Daniel Fokker, Ivor Darreg have, as well as the traditional Meantone notation. It depends on how you want to use the system. Alot of people come up with their own notation systems nowadays. I've been catching on to the idea of making non diatonic notation systems, and chains of higher harmonics like the 7th etc.

So I am new to this forum I will try to keep everyone updated!
#40
Quote by Ron Sword
There are a few great books on this - One 20th Century microtonal notation - Sagittal notation can take care of pretty much any notation.


Thanks. I'll look for it. Who publishes it?
Page 1 of 2