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#1
So now im pondering the question of image I thought i'd never have to and would always be about the music and only the music but I guess things change... I have respect for those bands that don't give a **** and just walk on stage wearing like a t-shirt and jeans with short hair and little to no facial hair but yet they completely blow you away with their music (such as Between the Buried and Me) instead of coming out wearing leather having hair down to their ass and facial hair down to their chests... I can't stand bands that go as far as slipknot or kiss when it comes to image but everyone i've been talking to is like you guys need to get an image to get big... I think its ****ing stupid and i'm totally against the idea but the rest of my band is all for it. I think the music should let it speak for ourselves not by what we look like on stage. For our next show were considering wearing like white dress shirts and black dress pants on stage "so when people see us on stage they'll take us more seriously cause we all look the same" which I think is stupid and incredibly lame and hypocritical of myself because i've always hated gimmick bands. Every show we play we have to sell a certain number of tickets for the promoter and we always end up losing money and to top it all off we play with like 10 other unknown bands and people always leave after the band they came to see has played. In a way it does make sense because while setting up we look like a bunch of kids who can barley play our instruments so they just impulsively leave. What are you opinions on image? Do you think bands need is honestly?
Referring to Victor Wooten
Quote by Nutter_101
"Wa wa wa English is my first language, music is my second blah blah blah wank wank wank I rule, love me suck my dick."

That's all I heard in that entire interview.

My Band:
http://www.myspace.com/closedfortonight
#3
dont wear white dress shirts and black pants. thats extremely played out. its good for a band to have an image but i think its best for each member to make their own image so it doesn't look all staged. bands dressing the same is pretty weird in my opinion.
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#4
With white dress shirts and black dress pants you'll look more like waiters...
I think image is important but what really matters is music: if I see a band with a showy image I'd be more curious to hear what they're worth, but if their music suck then they're just a bad band... not a bad band with a good image!
#5
My lead singer wears red shorts...

**** YOU IMAGE!
All I want is for everyone to go to hell...
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Quote by DisarmGoliath
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#6
Sorry dude but if you want to succeed as a musician you'll have to give up on any principles you might have.
You shouldn't have any to begin with.

Every successful band has a gimmick even if you don't notice them. Some are pretty obvious others are not but you need one if you want to stand out from the other 1712341383 bands that play music similar to yours. Your music might be better than half that number or be even be one of the best, but that alone might not be enough.

If you can't be better, at least be different. If you can be both, even better, but I doubt it's possible.
#7
I love when everyone comes with this let the music speak for itself crap. Even Coheed and Cambria have an image (the long hair and the screens and their storyline)

At the end of the day, even if your music is great- people pay to see a show. This isnt 1983 and you aren't metallica. They were doing something different enough musically that thier **** could fly. Now, do to the anaglamation of so many styles, you need to look different to stand out. Even if you just push it to the limit with energy- that will be enough.
The point is- People pay to see ENTERTAINMENT. Not hear music. IF they just wanted to hear music they could go plug into thier ipods. Come up with an identifiable image that is not cheesy and suits your music.
#10
Ya image is so stupid. Obviously your way of doing things is right, because all good bands that people want to see have to cover the unsold tickets out of their own pocket.

Grow up. There is no such thing as integrity. I have never seen an integrity, never held it in my hands. I have seen money. I have seen people jammed into clubs. Sounds nice, eh? But hey, you're above all that.
I can't wait until the kids with this attitude have to enter the job market. That's going to be ****ing hilarious.
#11
Quote by koslack
There is no such thing as integrity. I have never seen an integrity, never held it in my hands.


Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

TS: you need to look into this subject a whole lot more - your post is awful scattered and stream-of-conciousness.

What sort of music do you play? What sort of bands already exist who play this kind of music? How many of them have strong 'images'? How many are 'big'? What's the overlap between the two groups like? How many of those with 'images' seem like the 'image' is a gimmick? How many of those with 'images' seem like the 'image' is pretty much what they're like? What's the overlap between these two groups and the groups who're 'big'? Why are people leaving your shows? Are you projecting any kind of confidence when you walk on and set up? Would an 'image' help? How are you actually defining words like 'image' and 'big'?

Obviously, a lot of the replies you've already gotten will help with that ^^.
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#12
If you think about it, the guys who just walk on with jeans and a t-shirt... that is their image. The "who cares just listen to the music" kind of image. Which really works for some people. Not for others.

I guess you just need to think about what you're actually trying to achieve, or say, with what you're doing. Make it something you actually like too, that always helps!
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#13
Quote by koslack
Ya image is so stupid. Obviously your way of doing things is right, because all good bands that people want to see have to cover the unsold tickets out of their own pocket.

Grow up. There is no such thing as integrity. I have never seen an integrity, never held it in my hands. I have seen money. I have seen people jammed into clubs. Sounds nice, eh? But hey, you're above all that.
I can't wait until the kids with this attitude have to enter the job market. That's going to be ****ing hilarious.
Were's your band? I would like too see proof of those claims, The thing is we're hated in our town but loved on the internet due to the music we play not being everyones cup of tea... But people who like progressive music really like us and say we have a chance at making it but then theres the stupid douche bags at our school who are like "LOL YOUR SINGERS EMOOO AHHAHA YOU GUYS SUCK LOLOOLOLOL!"
Referring to Victor Wooten
Quote by Nutter_101
"Wa wa wa English is my first language, music is my second blah blah blah wank wank wank I rule, love me suck my dick."

That's all I heard in that entire interview.

My Band:
http://www.myspace.com/closedfortonight
#14
Quote by AmpleSteak
Were's your band? I would like too see proof of those claims, The thing is we're hated in our town but loved on the internet due to the music we play not being everyones cup of tea... But people who like progressive music really like us and say we have a chance at making it but then theres the stupid douche bags at our school who are like "LOL YOUR SINGERS EMOOO AHHAHA YOU GUYS SUCK LOLOOLOLOL!"



You're loved on the internet? What does that even mean?
Unless you are selling units, no, you do not have a chance to make it. Money talks, bull**** walks. Such is life, especially the industry. You do whatever it takes to get asses in seats, because that's the only kind of credibility in the music business. A&R reps don't really care about how loved you are on the internet (again, a totally, utterly meaningless claim, it's even worse than saying your band is big in Japan; you can't really prove it if somebody says you're full of it), they care about how much money you can make them, and the only 2 things that matter are how many tickets you sell, and how many songs or CD's you move.
#15
Quote by AmpleSteak
Were's your band? I would like too see proof of those claims, The thing is we're hated in our town but loved on the internet due to the music we play not being everyones cup of tea... But people who like progressive music really like us and say we have a chance at making it but then theres the stupid douche bags at our school who are like "LOL YOUR SINGERS EMOOO AHHAHA YOU GUYS SUCK LOLOOLOLOL!"

Your band has had around 120,000 "plays' on MySpace. That is not bad.

What do you think that would translate into actual sales (Obsolete CDs, iTunes, etc)?

What is your target demographic? Males under 21? The demographic most likely to steal your music rather than pay for it.

How do you feel you are progressive? What is unique about your show?

At some point everyone has to consider their image and stage persona. This may in no way reflect who or what you actually are but if you want to play shows (I don't even mean a headlining act that is touring, but even local shows) you need to consider your appeal. Friends of mine that enjoy a reasonable level of success in music are very conscious of presentation and image at all times. This includes business dealings and reliability.

I work as an illustrator/animator and even here I have to always be conscious of image. If I come across as a "normal" I will be viewed as uncreative, if I am over the top "artsy" I get labelled as a flake. It is a balancing act of image and producing a viable product.
#16
Once you've thought 'what image does my band have?' then, no matter what you decide to look like, whether in powdered wigs, mohawks, dreadlocks, long hair, short hair, no hair, leather jackets, tuxedos, tie-dye shirts, baseball caps on back-to-front, full fancy dress or nothing but a sock, then you're thinking about image.

"I don't care about image" is an image. Because you've made a decision about how to appear to the audience. In fact, I've seen very very few bands that really don't care about image, because those bands will almost certainly look very disparate and not really like a band at all.

Every band needs to think about how it appears to its audience, because those are the people who will be paying you money to come and look at you. Many people won't really care, in fact quite a lot of people won't think about it. But they'll still be affected by how you look - it's one of the thousands and thousands of things that influences their opinion of you whether consciously or subconsciously.

Personally, I think every band owes it to the audience to look 'professional' on stage. That doesn't mean dressing smartly, but it should be obvious that they thought 'what do the audience want to see on stage?' and that you've worked on fulfilling that. It is, again, another part of making your customers happy..
#17
Well, the only bands who dont really play into the "image" are alternative/grunge bands mainly. but like someone said above, the members should find their own individual images, and dressing the same isnt very good, unless it's some kind of album cover/ music video concept
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#18
Image=/= one uniform look.

Like getting all done up in suits is a laugh - but you don't need to exactly match.

Also - the best image is clothes that you feel confident and attractive in. If you go on stage thinking you look good you will put on a better show IMO.
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#19


Believe it or not, that is their image.

I don't know why you would think that having an "image" is a bad thing. You're not "selling out" because you care what people think about your craft. If you want to go against dressing up then put a big curtain on the stage, but that would be a gimmick, too.
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Big burly men grunting without shirts on pretty much summed up my childhood.

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Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do more look like?
#20
Quote by JAHellraiser
Well, the only bands who dont really play into the "image" are alternative/grunge bands mainly. but like someone said above, the members should find their own individual images, and dressing the same isnt very good, unless it's some kind of album cover/ music video concept


That the complete opposite actually. That's one of those things that is so rotten about grunge, they were all so anti-image they actually ended up looking all the same. Hence why Kurt Cobain hated people associating him and Nirvana to the grunge movement/genre.
#22
[quote="'[= Tom ="]']Image=/= one uniform look.

Like getting all done up in suits is a laugh - but you don't need to exactly match.

Also - the best image is clothes that you feel confident and attractive in. If you go on stage thinking you look good you will put on a better show IMO.
+1 to this - especially to the last bit. I'm a frontman and I've found that what I'm wearing on stage has a huge effect on my confidence level. And when I'm more confident I definitely do put on a better show because I don't hold anything back.
#23
By the way, there was a HUGE thread about image, and it ended up getting closed, and so far the arguments are about identical in this thread.
#24
Well aren't you pretentious. We're loved on the internet? Hey guess what. What is a record label going to consider- a band which as a dispersed fanbase on the internet, or a band that packs crowds in a regional area consistently. 2000 fans around the globe? or 2000 in one place. The 2000 in one place. Anyone can get alot of listeners all over. to succeed you need to be able to get them to actually COME to your gigs and BUY your merch.
I checked out your page. Your music is actually very good. Reminds me of Fall of troy alot. But just in reading the page it became evident that you guys aren't very business-minded
Last edited by Highwaytohell at Sep 26, 2009,
#25
it really depends what you're doing. i play in a nine-piece alt-folk, alt-country band. we've experimented with 'dress codes' and are probably going to continue to do so, because when you get nine people on stage, it can start to look really messy unless there's some kind of cohesion there. but yknow, if you're playing in a four piece rock band, it doesn't matter so much. you're probably all wearing tees and jeans anyway, and that will work for you.
my name is matt. you can call me that if you like.
#26
Quote by Highwaytohell
Well aren't you pretentious. We're loved on the internet? Hey guess what. What is a record label going to consider- a band which as a dispersed fanbase on the internet, or a band that packs crowds in a regional area consistently. 2000 fans around the globe? or 2000 in one place. The 2000 in one place. Anyone can get alot of listeners all over. to succeed you need to be able to get them to actually COME to your gigs and BUY your merch.
I checked out your page. Your music is actually very good. Reminds me of Fall of troy alot. But just in reading the page it became evident that you guys aren't very business-minded


you would do well to show a little more humility too. having a decent national listener base is actually a very good idea, because it sets out a base from which to start touring; you might not think it matters, but i can promise you that promoters putting on out of town bands are very interested in what sort of national presence that band has; things like myspace friends and plays and profile views don't mean a great deal, but they do make some impression, just as blog posts and buzz are important too.

more importantly, your actual statement is wrong. a really good example of this would be a band like los campesinos! who really took off because they were able to generate a lot of buzz on internet forums/blogs etc etc by recording a great demo and promoting it well. they sold out their first ever london show, having only played a handful of hometown shows before that. they're currently signed to a well respected indie, about to release their third album and touring nationally.

you contribute a lot to this forum, and its nice that you do, but fundamentally, you aren't some kind of expert on this. no-one here is. so don't go around telling people that the way they're going about doing things is wrong and that the way you're going about doing them is the only way to do it. by doing so, you're just setting yourself up to look like an ass.
my name is matt. you can call me that if you like.
#27
Quote by Gurgle!Argh!
you would do well to show a little more humility too. having a decent national listener base is actually a very good idea, because it sets out a base from which to start touring; you might not think it matters, but i can promise you that promoters putting on out of town bands are very interested in what sort of national presence that band has; things like myspace friends and plays and profile views don't mean a great deal, but they do make some impression, just as blog posts and buzz are important too.

more importantly, your actual statement is wrong. a really good example of this would be a band like los campesinos! who really took off because they were able to generate a lot of buzz on internet forums/blogs etc etc by recording a great demo and promoting it well. they sold out their first ever london show, having only played a handful of hometown shows before that. they're currently signed to a well respected indie, about to release their third album and touring nationally.

you contribute a lot to this forum, and its nice that you do, but fundamentally, you aren't some kind of expert on this. no-one here is. so don't go around telling people that the way they're going about doing things is wrong and that the way you're going about doing them is the only way to do it. by doing so, you're just setting yourself up to look like an ass.

+1

Being "famous" on the internet may not be the only factor, but it does matter.
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and my mom then told me to masturbate more.

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Big burly men grunting without shirts on pretty much summed up my childhood.

Quote by The Leader
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do more look like?
#28
Quote by Highwaytohell
I love when everyone comes with this let the music speak for itself crap. Even Coheed and Cambria have an image (the long hair and the screens and their storyline)

At the end of the day, even if your music is great- people pay to see a show. This isnt 1983 and you aren't metallica. They were doing something different enough musically that thier **** could fly. Now, do to the anaglamation of so many styles, you need to look different to stand out. Even if you just push it to the limit with energy- that will be enough.
The point is- People pay to see ENTERTAINMENT. Not hear music. IF they just wanted to hear music they could go plug into thier ipods. Come up with an identifiable image that is not cheesy and suits your music.



great post!

And I wouldn't try to come up with a full "BAND" image, you need to dress similar, but not the same, and you each need your on persona on stage.
#29
Here's the question you should ask yourself about image.

When you go out on stage, what do people want to think when they look at you?

Once you're happy with that, there's no point in spending any more time on it.
#30
I'm not going to debate good images versus bad images, or the lack of image as an image, but what I would like to discuss is the concept behind "image" and its relevance in a band context.

What is image? taken very literally, it's what you see, and unless you're playing a show for a school for the blind, your audience will SEE something. It's always important to remember that your shows are SHOWS, where you SHOW something (your band) to people who SEE it. I haven't checked out your site yet, but I intend to thanks in large part to many comments on this thread, and I'm sure I'll HEAR good music... atleast to some people... I'll reserve judgement for the time being, as it's not relevant here. The point I'm getting at is that your good music is most likely the cause for your "internet success," where conversely your poor/loack of an image is your cause for live show failure. Very few people go to live shows hoping to hear new and interresting music, as much as I hate to admit that sad and simple fact. Most people go to shows to be entertained, to rock out or have some decent background while they drink beer with their buddies and try to pick up chicks. If it's good, they'll refrain from changing the station on their way to work the next morning. If it's a great show, they'll carry that experience, which is more valuable to them and infinitely more valuable to you.

and guys, let's not be bitter... or be bitter, wtf do I really care.
#31
You need better shows by the sound of it. Get away from those kind of shows. Find out what bands that are big in your area and where they're playing.
#32
great points here, not much I can add, but image isn't just what clothes you're wearing, you can just wear a t shirt and jeans and still have a great image, the image is also about how you how you act on stage, how you interact with the crowd, and pretty much everything about the show that is visual.

while I agree with you that stuff like KISS and Gwar is kinda stupid, that doesn't mean you have to do something crazy or dress up funny to have an image.
#33
Quote by The4thHorsemen
great points here, not much I can add, but image isn't just what clothes you're wearing, you can just wear a t shirt and jeans and still have a great image, the image is also about how you how you act on stage, how you interact with the crowd, and pretty much everything about the show that is visual.

while I agree with you that stuff like KISS and Gwar is kinda stupid, that doesn't mean you have to do something crazy or dress up funny to have an image.



I'm sure both of those bands, especially KISS, could give a rats ass what you think. In this world, the only thing you cannot ever argue with, is success.
#34
Quote by Highwaytohell
Well aren't you pretentious. We're loved on the internet? Hey guess what. What is a record label going to consider- a band which as a dispersed fanbase on the internet, or a band that packs crowds in a regional area consistently. 2000 fans around the globe? or 2000 in one place. The 2000 in one place. Anyone can get alot of listeners all over. to succeed you need to be able to get them to actually COME to your gigs and BUY your merch.
I checked out your page. Your music is actually very good. Reminds me of Fall of troy alot. But just in reading the page it became evident that you guys aren't very business-minded
Sorry if i did sound pretentious I was just saying a lot of people who found us through the internet liked us rather than all the people in our highschool. But about your not very business minded is there anything you could suggest we improve in that area?
Referring to Victor Wooten
Quote by Nutter_101
"Wa wa wa English is my first language, music is my second blah blah blah wank wank wank I rule, love me suck my dick."

That's all I heard in that entire interview.

My Band:
http://www.myspace.com/closedfortonight
#35
Quote by AmpleSteak
Sorry if i did sound pretentious I was just saying a lot of people who found us through the internet liked us rather than all the people in our highschool. But about your not very business minded is there anything you could suggest we improve in that area?


Well if CT was here he could start you. But you'd want to read the stickies on the forum. Next I recommend you learn to write proper press releases and update the bio on your myspace page- make it sound like you would want to book you. take a look at the Marketing your band stickie on this forum- has tons of useful information.
#36
I haven't read all the replies on here, but if you want to succeed in the music industry as a band, whether you like it or not, you ALREADY HAVE AN IMAGE. People see you on stage and as a band you present one entire package.

When someone who has never heard your music and sees a poster of your band on the wall or a flier, that image needs to be as professional appearing as your music is. Your band projects an audible message as well as a visual one. It does need to be considered when you are marketing your band to the type of fans you want to hear you. You can't say otherwise, bc I doubt you'll be handing out metal demo's to the lawyers and doctors of america. The same can be said for handing out country demos at a heavy rock show. Whether you know it or not, you are marketing your band to a specific demographic. And if you aren't you need to re-evaluate what your band is doing.

I'm not saying everyone has to be wearing the same thing exactly, like a waiters uniform, but have a congruent visual appearance. You don't want to look on stage and think, "well, the guitarist looks like he plays speed metal, the bassist looks like he's in the 1'oclock jazz band, and the singer looks like be belongs in a fraternity doing beer bongs". You catch my drift?

Whether or not you go the route of everyone wearing something similar, or just say we should all wear collared shirts, or t-shirts, or nerd outfits or whatever you decide, you do need to present a uniform product.


I could go on to the argument of 'the music should speak for itself' vs otherwise, but grow up. As artistically based creating music is, when you want to make money off art, you package and show it the most appealing way to get people to like your band and buy your cds. Hell, even Stevie Ray Vaughn had an image, and he played into it. How many times have you seen videos of him playing without his hat? Yes, his music did speak for itself, but you can see a picture, having never heard the music and know who he is. The same goes for KISS. Image is not bull****.
Last edited by JackFlash19 at Sep 28, 2009,
#37
Quote by koslack
I'm sure both of those bands, especially KISS, could give a rats ass what you think. In this world, the only thing you cannot ever argue with, is success.


I don't think he was making even a vague gesture towards arguing with their success - which is fairly self-evident - he was just giving his opinion on that kind of image.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again - I think your personal crusade to make UG more aware of the reality of the music business is great, but you cut too deep when you wield that knife an awful lot. You lecture people who don't need the lecture and rebut things people haven't said.

Now, I have a deep passion for music and would love to make a living doing something musical and for that reason I obviously think people like Slacker (where is he these days?), Chris and you are excellent people to have on the forum, because you can all give people with much less experience (like me) a better idea of the practicalities of doing that kind of thing, but I you need to stop and think before you jump down people's throats every so often. They don't deserve it all the time. Most of the time, sure. But not all the time.
Quote by Ed O'Brien
“It’s not genius. It’s just that if you want something good to come out of something, you have to put in a lot of effort. That involves a lot of hard work, and a lot of blood, sweat and tears sometimes.”

http://urbanscarecrow.bandcamp.com/
#38
Quote by koslack
I'm sure both of those bands, especially KISS, could give a rats ass what you think. In this world, the only thing you cannot ever argue with, is success.


why can't you argue with success? the idea that one should be content to do anything to their band in order to be successful is, frankly, a really really stupid one. if you want to earn shitloads of money, go and get a job in investment banking or something. if you're willing to do things that you think are stupid, dull or morally wrong for the sake of musical success, then was it really worthwhile? the reason why music is a dream for a lot of people is that it offers potential to make a living doing something that you love. there's no sense in doing it if you don't love it, because you probably aren't going to make money. its largely a crapshoot anyway, so why do something you dislike in the vague hopes that it might help you be successful? its just an illogical way to behave.
my name is matt. you can call me that if you like.
#39
Quote by Gurgle!Argh!
why can't you argue with success? the idea that one should be content to do anything to their band in order to be successful is, frankly, a really really stupid one. if you want to earn shitloads of money, go and get a job in investment banking or something. if you're willing to do things that you think are stupid, dull or morally wrong for the sake of musical success, then was it really worthwhile? the reason why music is a dream for a lot of people is that it offers potential to make a living doing something that you love. there's no sense in doing it if you don't love it, because you probably aren't going to make money. its largely a crapshoot anyway, so why do something you dislike in the vague hopes that it might help you be successful? its just an illogical way to behave.



You can't argue with success because the people you're arguing with can just plug up their ears with money. Why the hell would Gene Simmons bother listening to some punk kid who doesn't like his band? While people on here are arguing about his lack of integrity, believe you me, he don't care. Playing music, any music, is a lot more fun than investment banking. So anything that increases the chance of being able to do it for a living is worthwhile. And since when does morality play into making music?
Last edited by koslack at Sep 29, 2009,
#40
Quote by koslack
You can't argue with success because the people you're arguing with can just plug up their ears with money. Why the hell would Gene Simmons bother listening to some punk kid who doesn't like his band? While people on here are arguing about his lack of integrity, believe you me, he don't care. Playing music, any music, is a lot more fun than investment banking. So anything that increases the chance of being able to do it for a living is worthwhile. And since when does morality play into making music?


of course morality can play into music. people make moral decisions everyday. if you have any kind of consciousness about the world you live in, you realise that all businesses involve moral decisions somewhere. making music isn't a question of morality, but what you do with it and where you play it can be moral questions.

no-one hear is arguing with gene simmons. they're arguing about gene simmons. not for his benefit, not because people particularly care what gene simmons chooses to do, but because if someone says 'why don't you do what gene simmons does?' it is a perfectly valid response to say 'no, what gene simmons does is stupid'.

whether he cares or not is a moot point, just like its a moot point whether or not shakespeare would agree with what people write about his work, or whether the people who star in 'jackass' care what people think about it. it doesn't stop it being a valid topic for discussion, and the fact that someone has had success at something doesn't always mean that its a good idea to do it. some people have made a lot of money by stapling their scrotums to their thighs. that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be reasonable to disagree with someone who advocated doing so as a good way to get ahead in life.

it isn't necessarily true that playing any music is automatically better than investment banking, but it is true that even if you do things which you don't agree with and that you think are stupid, it still doesn't guarantee musical success. it doesn't necessarily even improve your chances of succeeding. as a result, it isn't a good idea to do them. how much money gene simmons has is entirely irrelevant.
my name is matt. you can call me that if you like.
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