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#162
Quote by Zanon
Regarding Allan's Legato he doesn't pull off [sorry if this is redundant information] but he simply reverse hammers, look into how Marshall Harrison does it. I believe that is the correct technique Allan uses

Regardless it's still possible to mimic his playing using hammers / pull offs, hell; just matching his phrasing and speed is good enough !


Allan most certainly uses pull-offs, though they're only used when necessary and the motion is minimised as much as possible. He also picks quite alot, it's just that his control over his pick attack is so good that most don't even hear his pickstrokes.

Marshall Harrison's lesson is valid just for making the point that legato isn't what most guitarists think it is. However, he says a few thinks that just aren't true.

"It's not good at all."

Describing the "John Petrucci" style of legato. It's necessary to develop this style first.

"There's no pull-offs."

Yes there are. There's very few of them and the pull-off motion is minimised as much as possible. If you look carefully, you can most certainly see Marshall use some minimised pull-offs throughout the video.

I'm totally for this style of legato. I like how it sounds. I like that it forces you to use more interesting phrasing (rolling motions are difficult without firm pull-offs). I'd love to hear more of it, but people need the details in order to develop the technique, not just the blanket statements.
My name is Tom, feel free to use it.
#163
It's also mightily hilarious that after talking about how legato is not a guitar-specific technique but a general musical term, he then proceeds to describe how to perform a different guitar-specific technique rather than how to perform legato by his own definition.

Ie, if you're gonna bitch about legato being notes overlapping, then for chrissakes, actually finger your scales so the notes overlap.
#164
A comment on one of his videos (left by he himself):

"Never bought any Jason Becker CDs. I liked his solo in "A little ain't enough" by Roth. I NEVER listen to electric guitar players; the players with technique have little theoretical knowledge and the ones who know theory don't have good technique. Probably the best would be Ulf Wakenius or Holdsworth. Give me Liszt Liszt Liszt such "communicative electricity"!!!"
#165
He doesn't listen to electric guitar players? I'm sure he listens to himself. Over and over. While looking at himself in the mirror going "Damn Marshall, you're hot, you're amazing guitar skills are just the icing on the cake... I think I love you".
New To Town With A Made Up Name

In The Angel's City

Chasing Fortune And Fame
09/03/2012
#166
What has this thread derailed into?

I know nothing of Marshall Harrison, but I'm watching the video. Seems a bit nobbish.

Anyway, I've been thinking of getting into this reverse hammer malarky. It's hard to find much more than fleeting references and slight descriptions, rather than any description on how to do it. Can anyone help a brother out?
The UG Awards exist only to instill me with existential doubt.


For me, the 60's ended that day in 1978...

Willies. Fuck the lick and fuck you too.
#168
Quote by Freepower
Tom made some really good posts on it, which I forgot to collate completely. >.<

Remind me tomorrow, I'm to bed now.


Any chance you can convince some of the higher-ups to change my username from PoP to Tom Gilroy?

oh, and btw.
My name is Tom, feel free to use it.
#169
Any chance you can convince some of the higher-ups to change my username from PoP to Tom Gilroy?


Nah, it's not good for the site's inner workings. The more posts you have the worse it is and we have some instructions not to do that kind of thing unless really necessary.
#170
And no exemptions to the mutliple accounts thing can be allowed, where the PoP account would be closed and I'd just use my own name from here on out.

Ok. I could have chosen Tom Gilroy back in 2005. I guess I'll just have to live with it.
My name is Tom, feel free to use it.
#171
Quote by Freepower
Nah, it's not good for the site's inner workings. The more posts you have the worse it is and we have some instructions not to do that kind of thing unless really necessary.

So uh...

Did you collate them? (don't wanna seem like a bother, but you did say "remind me" )
The UG Awards exist only to instill me with existential doubt.


For me, the 60's ended that day in 1978...

Willies. Fuck the lick and fuck you too.
#173
Aw you're a star
The UG Awards exist only to instill me with existential doubt.


For me, the 60's ended that day in 1978...

Willies. Fuck the lick and fuck you too.
#174
Quote by TheBurningFish
Aw you're a star


No worries, glad to give any help I can.
My name is Tom, feel free to use it.
#175
And no exemptions to the mutliple accounts thing can be allowed, where the PoP account would be closed and I'd just use my own name from here on out.

Ok. I could have chosen Tom Gilroy back in 2005. I guess I'll just have to live with it.


Nope, no exceptions.

Freepower wasn't my first choice, it's my old gaming alt-handle. Won't tell what my first choice was. I suppose I could go ban the ****er with my name on it but I've got so used to FP.

How's this collection of posts for archival?

Quote by Prophet of Page
As has been mentioned, Petrucci has a very harsh hammer-on/pull-off technique which disjoints almost every note. Essentially, it sounds somewhat like picking, but with a lesser attack. The benefit is that the technique is easier to develop, and with sufficient finger strength, will work regardless of your level of gain and the height of your action. The downside is of course, that you aren't playing "legato" in the true sense of the word.

The alternative, the style preferred by Holdsworth minimises use of pull-offs and the pull-off motion itself. Contrary to what people believe, descending notes aren't really "hammered-on" when descending, though many lines will begin with a hammered note. It's quite difficult to explain, but when descending, it's more a case that that higher note is "lifted-off" while a finger rests over the lower note almost fretting it, with the necessary force to fret exerted during the "lift-off" motion. Pull-offs are not entirely removed, and are indeed necessary in some lines. The pull-off motion should, in most cases, just be sufficiently strong to keep the note you pull-off to is at the same leval as the note you pulled-off from. The benefit of this approach is a sound much more inline with "legato" in the true sense of the word. The style would be complemented by learning to pick with a picking style that minimises pick attack. This is really a question of pick angle and picking motion, rather than whether you favour alternate or economy picking.

The downsides are that the style requires lower action and a more compressed lead sound where everything is "on a level," the style requires much more finger independence and is much more difficult to learn, as really it's necessary to be able to play using the other style of legato techniques also.



Quote by Prophet of Page
Something that worked for me and was also mentioned in the video you posted was to get used to hammering notes from nowhere. Practice it with every finger, on every fret on every string. Then, try to make the hammers of consistent volume. Only then will the "hammer-offs" really work. The final stage is simply to string the hammers together, and to learn the correct way to lift a finger and hammer behind it.

Really, it just takes a long time. Another thing that's absolutely vital is getting your fingers used to how fast they have to strike the string to get the correct hammer.

Also, you're probably not going to remove every pull-off from your legato playing. Holdsworth, Garsed and Lane never managed it. So, don't be too upset if you still find phrases you need to through pull-offs into.

It's hugely worthwhile, but very difficult. It won't come quickly.


Quote by Prophet of Page
About the Holdsworth/Garsed style legato, which there seems to be quite alot of confusion about...

1. Low action and light strings will be helpful, but they won't be necessary, contrary to what some people will tell you. Sure, Holdsworth uses .008s/.009s with low action, but Garsed uses .010s (and has used .011s) on guitars with fairly average action (he keeps the action higher for his slide playing).

2. The idea of straight descending hammer-ons is incorrect. Rather, where one would usually pull-off, we now lift-off and hammer lightly with the next finger we are to fret with. Pull-offs are not entirely removed, though they are almost always minimised as much as possible. Not every lick most guitarists would refer to as "legato" can be played like this.

3. Further, Holdsworth and Garsed both pick quite alot, contrary to what many believe. This is in order to maintain full control of the accents. Specifically, when lifting-off from the pinky to the ring. This very frequently picked. Allan economy picks (and he's amazing at it) and Brett hybrid picks nearly everything (and he's amazing at it), but similar smooth sounding picking can be achieve with alternate picking, provided you have control over your pick attack.

4. You'll need enough gain and compression to bring this relatively gentle style of playing out tonally. String dampening technique is hugely important, here as in general.

5. The stretches are quite big, but the melodic lines they play aren't entirely based on playing 4 note on each string (even though 4 notes on some particular string is common). Rather they play lines which incorporate the 4 note per string idea with lesser numbers of notes per string (and indeed higher, when they use slides or less frequently, right hand taps taps). Some of the stretches are impossible to play standing with a straight wrist. I can manage -5-7-9-11- on my low E, -3-5-7-9- on a good day.

6. Chromatic "passing tones" are used frequently. Think of this as just "filling is a gap" in a usual 3 note per string pattern. You'll quickly find which ones make sense and which don't.

7. Use a hair band to mute the strings a la Guthrie Govan/Greg Howe and this legato technique is very naturally extended into the multifinger tapping technique (T.J. Helmerich style, though T.J.'s left hand legato isn't as amazing as Allan's or Brett's). I don't do this myself, but the idea is a very natural extension. As many notes as possible, one string. When playing multiple right hand tapped notes on a single string, any necessary pull-offs should be upward, so the motion is ensure to be coming from the fingers. Joel Hoekstra is another phenomenal 8-finger tapper.

8. Even though this is the type of "legato technique" most similar to "legato" in a musical context, it's still not "true" legato. In "true" legato, there is a slight overlapbetween notes, that is difficult to replicate on a guitar. Sweep picking arpeggios are too my knowledge one of the few things that would be considered "true" legato.

EDIT: As for where "normal" legato is more useful, any bluesy hammer-on/pull-off based pentatonic lick. Anything 2 notes per string, really.



Could you give some examples of when normal legato would be more useful than Holdsworth legato? -

Quote by Prophet of Page
Firstly, if you aren't playing with quite a compressed lead tone, the Holdsworth/Garsed style of legato isn't feasible, it's nearly impossible to maintain the level without pull-offs.

Secondly, when playing with a suitable tone, there are still some licks that are very difficult to play without a single pull-off. A very slight pull-off or picked note is almost necessary when playing a stretchy 4-note per string linewhen descending from the pinky to the ring finger. The ring finger just won't have the strength in that position to hammer the note firmly enough to maintain the level.

Funnily enough, one of the hardest licks to play without pull-offs is among the easiest to play with them. A repeating 3 finger roll like -3-5-7-5-, or the even tougher -3-5-6-5- where the ring finger would be used is quite difficult to play without pull-offs. These "rolling" lick don't appear frequently in either Holdsworth's or Garsed's playing, but a well controlled pickstroke or pull-off is often placed in there to maintain the level.

As for players with phenomenal "legato" technique that use pull-offs much more regularly, Richie Kotzen is certainly worth a look, though his left hand isn't hugely economical, and his line are predominately 3 note per string.
#176


That's awesome.
The UG Awards exist only to instill me with existential doubt.


For me, the 60's ended that day in 1978...

Willies. Fuck the lick and fuck you too.
#177
Quote by Freepower
How's this collection of posts for archival?


I've a few little changes I'd like to make if that's ok, or maybe just little notes you could attach under them. I'm not entirely clear across all the posts.

In the first...

Quote by Me
Contrary to what people believe, descending notes aren't really "hammered-on" when descending, though many lines will begin with a hammered note. It's quite difficult to explain, but when descending, it's more a case that that higher note is "lifted-off" while a finger rests over the lower note almost fretting it, with the necessary force to fret exerted during the "lift-off" motion.


I'd like to rephrase this. Yes, a descending hammer is different to a "hammer-on" in the conventional sense, but I don't think I worded this well.

Here I really wanted to express that the idea of straight descending hammers is incorrect. Instead, there is a more intricate motion that I've previously referred to as the "lift-off," which involves something like a "reverse hammer" This motion is a combination of the finger fretting the higher note being lifted directly off the string, while a finger is slightly above the string at a lower note, with the necessary force to fret being exerted as we lift-off, which is a gentle hammer-on. So yes, the lower note is "hammered" in some sense, but the lifting motion and the hammering motion really need to be concerted and coordinated together, rather than being thought of as distinct movements.

In that same post...

Quote by Me
The downsides are that the style requires lower action and a more compressed lead sound where everything is "on a level," the style requires much more finger independence and is much more difficult to learn, as really it's necessary to be able to play using the other style of legato techniques also.


I worded this badly again, low action isn't really required, it's just very helpful.

Here, I really should have said that the style requires a more compressed lead sound where everything is on a level, and is helped significantly by using lighter strings and a lower action, both for developing the technique (as less force is required), and sonically, as a lighter string won't have such a percussive attack.

The second post is fine, I'm just not sold on the term "hammer-off," but then I'm not sold on "lift-off" or "reverse-hammer" either.

Third post is fine, but actually, I'd like to add that the overlapping of notes wouldn't actually be desirable on a distorted lead guitar, as when two notes are played together, the distortion introduces two new pitches, being the sum and the difference of the pitches of the notes played. Thus even though you could play a swept pattern with overlapping note (making it "true" legato), it would sound better in almost all cases two play every note with the same separation we would get if they were all played on the smae string with the Holdsworth/Garsed legato style.

I'm entirely happy with the fourth post.
My name is Tom, feel free to use it.
Last edited by Prophet of Page at May 16, 2010,
#178
Those posts are much appreciated. However compression leads to a lack of dynamics which makes me sad
New To Town With A Made Up Name

In The Angel's City

Chasing Fortune And Fame
09/03/2012
#179
Quote by Alter-Bridge
Those posts are much appreciated. However compression leads to a lack of dynamics which makes me sad


Yes, it does.
My name is Tom, feel free to use it.
#180
Just got back from the show...
...


AWESOME.
Really, he played quite fantastically, and his bassist was truly incredible. The drummer was good, but played waaay too long of solo's, and a bit too loud as well.
Anyways, my life is complete now that I've seen him. It really was awesome.
superman is killing himself tonight
#181
Me and Tom saw him Saturday, he played amazingly - incredible fire and aggression without sacrificing any imagination or lyricism.

Some lines that I've never seen him do anything similar to (incredible double stop and harmoniser stuff and delay banks and PICKED lines...), and some passages that I didn't even think Holdsworth could pull off...

He was playing with Gary Husband and Jimmy Johnson - Gary brought out the best in his playing, I think, groove and serious balls combined to make Holdsworth that little bit more intense and melodically inventive. Jimmy was fantastic but wasn't a standout - while the other two musicians took up all the attention, I think he was there supporting the whole thing all along.

Lots of really old tunes - and there was a version of Devil Take the Hindmost that I think has still somewhat left my jaw on the floor.

Unfortunately we didn't get to chat with the great man afterwards, he made a pretty obvious mistake in the encore and he took it pretty badly, pretty much fled the venue.

Did get to compliment Gary on his excellent playing. (He said "Thanks man, I tried." )

All in all, really, really enjoyed it. Well worth the 250 or so euro it cost me to fly there, stay and eat in London for a day and a half, and then go to London's top Jazz club.
#182
Wait, so they're not doing the total improv thing anymore? That's good and bad I guess, I'll miss Bozzio but I think I'll prefer seeing some familiar material.

Sounds awesome though, I'll try to get a chat with him. Wonder what sort of guy he is - getting in a huff after one mistake? Wow.

Also, unsurprisingly I can't convince any of my mates to come along so I'm by myself - and the aforementioned 3 hour train journey is now a 4 hour bus journey, as the train crashed yesterday and took out the road too! (yeah that was the one on the news). Oh well, it's not enough to stop me!
#183
Sounds awesome though, I'll try to get a chat with him. Wonder what sort of guy he is - getting in a huff after one mistake? Wow.


Holdsy's extra-ordinarily self critical, always has been. To be honest, I'm guessing it was because it was the encore and a stupid kind of mistake. There were plenty of mistakes he just let go with a bit of a laugh but he took that one pretty personal.
#185
Nope, venue wanted no photography, didn't have a decent video device anywhoo.

The mistake was he screwed up the head of Red Alert, missed a note and then was a teeny bit lost as to the main riff so he stopped for a few seconds and joined in again.

I think it was just he really didn't want to disappoint on the encore after such a good night. I doubt it bothered anyone as much as it did him.
#186
TO be honest, I hardly even noticed that mistake.
It's a bit of a shame that he's so self-critical, but that's no doubt one of things that's made him fantastic, as he's always been working harder and harder to get above his own standards.

I couldn't see you anywhere Freepower. Where were you sitting?
superman is killing himself tonight
#187
I was front center of the raised area, image attached (me and Tom were at the same table, he has, and I quote, "silly hair". I'm a skinhead)

I looked around for you during and after the show but none of the likely suspects turned out to be you.
Attachments:
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#188
I was sitting in the white circle.
With me was my sister (ginger) her boyfriend (black) and my dad (old).
Attachments:
image.php.jpg
superman is killing himself tonight
#190
Yep. Weird that we didn't see eachother...at all. :p Considering how close we were sitting.
superman is killing himself tonight
#191
Lol, well, me and Tom were running on like 4 hours sleep for the past 2 days, so our attention was being carefully rationed.

Plus, I have no idea what you look like and I was behind you. Other way around we might have had some success.

This thread might be of interest for anyone studying the hammer-off legato stuff - https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1323886

It's Toms various legato posts with his edits in. Anyone with good questions ask em in there.
#192
Wait, you remember seeing that old dude standing up and clapping each song right? Did either of you stand up clapping at the very end? If he was right in front of you, then I might remember seeing you.

Anyways, I've bookmarked that thread. Good good advice.
superman is killing himself tonight
#194
Quote by Freepower
Tom gave Devil Take The Hindmost a standing ovation.


That was a mind-bogglingly good solo...
My name is Tom, feel free to use it.
#196
Seeing him tonight

I don't care how un-fusion it is, I'm SQUEEEEEEEing like a little bitch

Edit:

Well, holy shit.

All I can say is mind = blown. Allan was on form, and Gary Husband was amazing. He was doing all those drum solos and at one point a stick hit him in the face, but he kept going. They were having a laugh on stage and just enjoying it, so it was really nice.

About 2 songs in thought this guy standing next to me asks "...The Burning Fish?" That was weird as hell. Proceeded to get drunk and jam with the guy and my guitar teacher, came home at half 3 to discover that my front door was chained and the key was in the lock, so I fell asleep in the stair well for 4 hours.

GOOD ****ING TIMES.

/cool story.
The UG Awards exist only to instill me with existential doubt.


For me, the 60's ended that day in 1978...

Willies. Fuck the lick and fuck you too.
Last edited by TheBurningFish at Jun 12, 2010,
#198
Someone called Beserker or something

It's foggy, y'know? Looking back, though, there might have been a few people pointing/trying to get my attention. This could be related to my recent shoop thread (hence the sig ).

Forgot to mention that my guitar teacher may have told Holdsy after the show that he was gonna die soon.

"And, man, your music, is just... it's gonna last forever, y'know? Like, way after your gone an- O.O Not that you're gonna die soon! I mean, you're not that old-"
"Well I am old."
"Yeah, but... uh..."
Shook his hand. Jesus Christ, it's massive. I also recorded them doing Devil Take the Hindmost, but I left my camera at where ever it was we were jamming.
The UG Awards exist only to instill me with existential doubt.


For me, the 60's ended that day in 1978...

Willies. Fuck the lick and fuck you too.
#199
Quote by TheBurningFish
Shook his hand. Jesus Christ, it's massive.


Ain't it just? Being a lefty, I offered that one for a handshake and it was just huge. No wonder he makes all his guitars look like toys. Then again, by rights his fretting hand should be huge because of all that craziness he does...