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#1
For example... LOTR.


Are the forces of Mordor really the bad guys?

Are the forces with Gondor, Rohan, the Undead King, the good forces???


The guys with the ring are viewed as the good guys trying to stop and uprising and destroying something that'll assist in that uprising succeed.


Now, what if we were on the forces of Mordor??? We'd hate the **** hole we're living in. That ring is the key to our success and the bad guys are on their way to destroy. We must do all that we can to stop those fat hobbitsessssss.


Many a movies have made the rebellious side the good side. Games as well.


Why must things be labeled as the forces of evil and good???
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Quote by CrossBack7
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#4
Because Mordor is bad. They don't want to move out peacefully, they want to kill/enslave everyone else.
#5
Quote by timeconsumer09
Because Mordor is bad. They don't want to move out peacefully, they want to kill/enslave everyone else.


So what???

We don't know the motives behind them at all. That's just what we're believed to think.


Did you not see Farimar enslave and beat up Gollum?
[img]http://i.imgur.com/LYZyCdp.gif[/img]


Quote by CrossBack7
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#7
Quote by Momentosis
So what???

We don't know the motives behind them at all. That's just what we're believed to think.


Did you not see Farimar enslave and beat up Gollum?


Did you not read the books and the silmarillon?

Do that, then come back to us with "mordor is teh good guyz!!11one!1"

EDIT: and why are their motives for enslaving and killing everyone relevant? Their motives don't matter, because those things are evil (in the general consensus of the word, I know 'evil' is subjective).
Last edited by timeconsumer09 at Oct 1, 2009,
#9
Quote by chaoticfables
Because that's how goddamn Hollywood wants us to think.

Yep.

Sheeple like to latch on to the concept of duality and "I'm right therefore I should win" kind of mentalities.

Which is why I Am Legend supposedly completely missed the point. Woll Smoth was actually the bad guy killing all the vampire things. But did the movie show that part? Nope. Made him seem like the protagonist.
#10
Quote by timeconsumer09
Did you not read the books and the silmarillon?

Do that, then come back to us with "mordor is teh good guyz!!11one!1"


I have read the books.

I have the Silmarillion.


I didn't retain any info from the Silmarillion at all.


Even despite that, could you really label a good/bad side?


If I was with Mordor, I'd consider my side the good and the other side the bad.
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Quote by CrossBack7
Momie's like not even a real person, just an asian, lesbian spirit.
#11
I dont understand.

are you trying to show us how we could just as easily think of evil as being good?

or simply asking why we label them good and evil?
There is a war going on for your mind.

If you are thinking, you are winning.


Resistance is victory.


We are building up a new world.
Do not sit idly by.
#12
Quote by Fenderhippie69
I dont understand.

are you trying to show us how we could just as easily think of evil as being good?

or simply asking why we label them good and evil?


I have no idea man.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/LYZyCdp.gif[/img]


Quote by CrossBack7
Momie's like not even a real person, just an asian, lesbian spirit.
#13
Quote by Momentosis
So what???

We don't know the motives behind them at all. That's just what we're believed to think.


Did you not see Farimar enslave and beat up Gollum?


how can you be believed to think?

go smoke more weed ts. I know what your talking about, but your argument is failing


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Last edited by chipmunksurfer at Oct 1, 2009,
#14
Quote by timeconsumer09
Did you not read the books and the silmarillon?

Do that, then come back to us with "mordor is teh good guyz!!11one!1"

This, in all seriousness. However, I know exactly what you're saying, and I've thought about pretty much this exact same thing more that once.


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#15
Quote by Momentosis
I have read the books.

I have the Silmarillion.


I didn't retain any info from the Silmarillion at all.


Even despite that, could you really label a good/bad side?


If I was with Mordor, I'd consider my side the good and the other side the bad.


You'd consider your side the good side because you are ON that side. To someone with neutrality, you'd still look evil. Hence good and bad.

This applies for things other than LotR too.
#17
Quote by Dirge Humani
ITT: Relativity, and people who take shit way too serious.


LORD OF THE RINGS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS.
#18
momentous did u change ur avatar?
up for adoption

How am I in bed you ask?

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Shallow and pedantic

#19
Quote by chrispfried
momentous did u change ur avatar?


Momentosis***


What did it use to be?
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Quote by CrossBack7
Momie's like not even a real person, just an asian, lesbian spirit.
#20
Quote by Momentosis
So what???

We don't know the motives behind them at all. That's just what we're believed to think.


Did you not see Farimar enslave and beat up Gollum?



We do know the motives behind them, because Tolkien described them in his books. And since he invented that particular universe, what he says just is.
#21
Quote by Pagan-Pie
We do know the motives behind them, because Tolkien described them in his books. And since he invented that particular universe, what he says just is.


That's what started the slavery problem in the real world.


People take the "word of god" as the black men as inferiors for they supposedly have the "mark of Cain".

We can't just take the word of the creator.


*is not a Christian*
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Quote by CrossBack7
Momie's like not even a real person, just an asian, lesbian spirit.
#22
Quote by Momentosis
I have no idea man.



Ah.

well, in LOTR we dont know the bad guys motives, we so its not the best example. Take Germany during WWII. We all view them as being evil for what they have done but to the germans who were part of the nazi party they were the good guys. They believed they were the good guys just as we believed that we were the good guys. So whats right and wrong is all a mater of perception. Whats right for one could be completely wrong for another.
There is a war going on for your mind.

If you are thinking, you are winning.


Resistance is victory.


We are building up a new world.
Do not sit idly by.
#23
Quote by Momentosis
That's what started the slavery problem in the real world.


People take the "word of god" as the black men as inferiors for they supposedly have the "mark of Cain".

We can't just take the word of the creator.


*is not a Christian*



What you're saying makes no sense. Middle Earth in completely fictional and existed only inside the mind of the author; therefore its characteristics are determined entirely by what Tolkien wrote. There's no point in comparing religion to a work of fiction. Characters in a book aren't conscious of their creator; but people are (they think).

This argument is retarded.

Also, the inhabitants of Mordor are unthinking artificial lackeys who pander to the will of their masters, namely Sauron and Morgoth. Learn to Lord of the Rings.
#24
Quote by Pagan-Pie
What you're saying makes no sense. Middle Earth in completely fictional and existed only inside the mind of the author; therefore its characteristics are determined entirely by what Tolkien wrote. There's no point in comparing religion to a work of fiction. Characters in a book aren't conscious of their creator; but people are (they think).

This argument is retarded.

Also, the inhabitants of Mordor are unthinking artificial lackeys who pander to the will of their masters, namely Sauron and Morgoth. Learn to Lord of the Rings.


Real or fictional, it doesn't matter. It still applies.


And are the inhabitants of Mordor really unthinking artificial lackeys?

Who were the soldiers Merry and Frodo watch march into Sauron???


Also, the only ones who are really artificial lackeys who pander the will of their masters are the Uruk-Hai who are brain-washed and corrupted elves.




I'm sure one can see the people retreating to Helm's deep as pandering to the masters.


As well as the undead army coming on Aragorn's will.
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Quote by CrossBack7
Momie's like not even a real person, just an asian, lesbian spirit.
#25
Quote by Momentosis

Now, what if we were on the forces of Mordor??? We'd hate the **** hole we're living in. That ring is the key to our success and the bad guys are on their way to destroy. We must do all that we can to stop those fat hobbitsessssss.


Sauron chose to live in Mordor after his physical form was destroyed due to his numerous betrayels.

He was known as 'Sauron the Deceiver'.
#26
Quote by Momentosis
Why must things be labeled as the forces of evil and good???

Because, without good and evil, there is no conflict. Conflict makes things interesting.
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Last edited by Gyroscope : Tomorrow at 01:00 PM.
#27
Quote by Gyroscope
Because, without good and evil, there is no conflict. Conflict makes things interesting.


A very good point.

The most interesting stories in my eyes, are those that humanise the evil, because there is typically reasoning behind the choice.
#28
Quote by Gyroscope
Because, without good and evil, there is no conflict. Conflict makes things interesting.


You can have conflict without good and evil...


Ferret wants to eat snake.

Snake wants to eat ferret.

They conflict.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/LYZyCdp.gif[/img]


Quote by CrossBack7
Momie's like not even a real person, just an asian, lesbian spirit.
#29
Quote by Momentosis
You can have conflict without good and evil...


Ferret wants to eat snake.

Snake wants to eat ferret.

They conflict.

Nah. Snakes are evil.
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Last edited by Gyroscope : Tomorrow at 01:00 PM.
#30
Quote by Momentosis
You can have conflict without good and evil...


Ferret wants to eat snake.

Snake wants to eat ferret.

They conflict.


Right, but think of it this way:

Snake wants to eat ferret, but ferret doesnt want to get eaten, so ferret thinks snake is the bad guy and he's the good guy.
Ferret wants to eat snake, so ferret is the bad guy and snake is the good guy.

It's not what other people think good or evil is, it's what the parties involved think they are. Either way it's all opinion.
#31
Quote by Gyroscope
Nah. Snakes are evil.


ಠ_ಠ

I refuse to believe such for political and moral reasons!!!
[img]http://i.imgur.com/LYZyCdp.gif[/img]


Quote by CrossBack7
Momie's like not even a real person, just an asian, lesbian spirit.
#32
Quote by Momentosis
ಠ_ಠ

I refuse to believe such for political and moral reasons!!!



I knew you'd post the face.
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Last edited by Gyroscope : Tomorrow at 01:00 PM.
#33
Quote by Momentosis
You can have conflict without good and evil...


Ferret wants to eat snake.

Snake wants to eat ferret.

They conflict.

That is a very boring conflict, and it would be quite difficult to give it universal meaning for humanity. Good and evil, on the other hand, has a lot of meaning that can always be applied.
#34
Usually, at least in fiction/faction, it's due to the point of view. Whilst both sides might have equally 'good' motives, the one side represented the most is usually the one coming out as the good guys. Just look at LOTR, 1984 or any other fictional work involving conflicts between two sides. The 'good guys' are always the ones that the works are based one, and often the ones that are the focal point of the PoV.

Also, there's this whole moral of the bad guys being the killers/murderers/conquerers/destroyers/rapists.


S t a i r s s r i a t S

#36
Ye! I have think of this before. It's kinda nice. ;O
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#37
Quote by blink182plus44
That is a very boring conflict, and it would be quite difficult to give it universal meaning for humanity. Good and evil, on the other hand, has a lot of meaning that can always be applied.


Not hard to apply it for universal meaning at all.


You have Communism/Fascism/etc. pushing for its ways because it thinks it is better.

You have Capitalism/etc. pushing for its ways because it thinks it is better.

What do we get?


World Wars.

Not particularly because of that but it is largely viewed as that.

Especially the Cold War.


Is either side particularly evil? No.

Is either side particularly good? No.



I don't know where I'm going with this.
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Quote by CrossBack7
Momie's like not even a real person, just an asian, lesbian spirit.
#38
the sides of good and evil are subjective. each side believes they are right in their ways.
#39
Quote by jettzypher
the sides of good and evil are subjective. each side believes they are right in their ways.

This. I'll even take it to the most extreme example possible. Look at the Holocaust. Everyone here would say that it was evil. I seriously doubt Hitler thought it was evil. He thought he was doing the world a favor by getting rid of all the "lower" species.
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#40
There is no such thing as good or evil, just peoples different opinions. I think certain things are evil, but others think that evil is good.
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