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#1
In theaters tomorrow. Supposed to be kind of anti-capitalism, but pro-democracy documentary. It should cause some debate as most of his films do. He says that capitalism is killing the USA, pointing mostly to corporate and government plots to keep the rich rich and the poor poor and the middle class in debt and on pills. This may be his last film and apparently he will make a lot of enemies in the film and entertainment industry as well. He will definitely get richer though.

What do you thing about this or him?
#3
I don't think capitalism is all bad. Michael Moore is too radical for me.
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#4
So he's in favor of democracy but not Capitalism?
Those things tend t go hand in hand.
Silly Michael Moore.
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#5
Quote by namesroverrated
I don't think capitalism is all bad. Michael Moore is too radical for me.


How is exploiting others to get richer "not" bad?

Quote by Siege of Power
So he's in favor of democracy but not Capitalism?
Those things tend t go hand in hand.
Silly Michael Moore.


Democracy and capitalism aren't necessarly the same thing. Democracy simply implies that everyone is part of the decision(which is not the case in our current society, at least in US and Canada).
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#6
I find it ironic that people have to pay to see it.
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#8
I might go see it. Just because most of his other work was very thought provoking.
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#10
Quote by FloyDZeD
I find it ironic that people have to pay to see it.

I know, everyone knows that in communist countries, movies are free.
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#11
Quote by FloyDZeD
I find it ironic that people have to pay to see it.

didn't even think of that hahaha.
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#12
Quote by namesroverrated
I don't think capitalism is all bad. Michael Moore is too radical for me.

MM is no radical.

he's a wimpy, politically-correct bleeding heart moderate

Quote by Siege of Power
So he's in favor of democracy but not Capitalism?
Those things tend t go hand in hand.
Silly Michael Moore.


Wrong you are sir, democracy and capitalism do not go hand in hand and they need not to, they are exclusive of one another.

Republics and capitalism tend to, however.
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#13
Quote by Fenderhippie69
I might go see it. Just because most of his other work was very thought provoking.


That's one thing you have to give the guy. He sparked the critical thinking of thousands of people out there, which can only be good. It forces you to ask yourself about what surrounds you, rather then just agree with what the media tells you.
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#14
Quote by Spike6sic6
How is exploiting others to get richer "not" bad?

The idea of capitalism is not bad. The free market, and competing with other companies for business, this competition leading to lower prices and better services. However, you are right, the system can be taken advantage of. Capitalism just needs to be regulated. The scandinavian countries are often referred to as socialist, but they aren't really, they're capitalist but there are government regulations.

And I don't know if the people saying "marxism ftw" and stuff are kidding or not, but marxism definitely does not work.

EDIT:
Quote by ExtremeMetalFTW
MM is no radical.

he's a wimpy, politically-correct bleeding heart moderate

On the issue of capitalism he seems radical (or at least the preview for the movie made him out to be! ) On other issues he may not be. I haven't watched any of his movies.
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Last edited by namesroverrated at Oct 2, 2009,
#15
Quote by namesroverrated
The idea of capitalism is not bad. The free market, and competing with other companies for business, this competition leading to lower prices and better services. However, you are right, the system can be taken advantage of. Capitalism just needs to be regulated. The scandinavian countries are often referred to as socialist, but they aren't really, they're capitalist but there are government regulations.

And I don't know if the people saying "marxism ftw" and stuff are kidding or not, but marxism definitely does not work.

1. They are mixed-market economies that happen to be more regulated than the US

2. Show me a country where marxism or communism has been implemented

(Hint: it's not China, USSR, Cuba or North Korea)
Quote by namesroverrated


On the issue of capitalism he seems radical (or at least the preview for the movie made him out to be! ) On other issues he may not be. I haven't watched any of his movies.

he's just pushing for more regulation, not abolishing capitalism. that would be radical
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#16
Quote by Siege of Power
So he's in favor of democracy but not Capitalism?
Those things tend t go hand in hand.


Is that seriously what you think?


Anyway, I'm a culturally liberal social-democrat, and I really don't like Michael Moore. Yes, he's mostly right in his movies, but he's also a major dickhead.
#17
Quote by Siege of Power
So he's in favor of democracy but not Capitalism?
Those things tend t go hand in hand.
Silly Michael Moore.


He explained it really well on his interview with Steven Colbert. Think really hard, is capitalism as free sa people let on?
#18
Quote by boffen
Is that seriously what you think?


Anyway, I'm a culturally liberal social-democrat, and I really don't like Michael Moore. Yes, he's mostly right in his movies, but he's also a major dickhead.

Social-democrat?


Then you are as much my political opponent as conservatives.


Social-democracy is way to placate the masses so they don't revolt, and yet exploit them enough to keep profit and prosperity in the higher margins
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#19
Ah Micheal Moore, spreading controversy wherever he goes. However, I do respect the man for stating his opinion so openly.
#21
Quote by Tempoe
In theaters tomorrow. Supposed to be kind of anti-capitalism, but pro-democracy documentary. It should cause some debate as most of his films do. He says that capitalism is killing the USA, pointing mostly to corporate and government plots to keep the rich rich and the poor poor and the middle class in debt and on pills. This may be his last film and apparently he will make a lot of enemies in the film and entertainment industry as well. He will definitely get richer though.

What do you thing about this or him?


You are acting as if both cannot relate.
#22
Quote by EC_AL_JH_GH
Ah Micheal Moore, spreading controversy wherever he goes. However, I do respect the man for stating his opinion so openly.

I disagree with him on a lot, but it's wonderful he has the right to say stuff.

First Amendment FTMFW!!!
Quote by beadhangingOne
I hope he is not making money off of this private endeavor haha. Free tickets/online streaming would be a nice touch.


I'd doubt that, he's a capitalist, just wants some reforms. he's doin it partly for the money
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#23
Quote by namesroverrated
The idea of capitalism is not bad. The free market, and competing with other companies for business, this competition leading to lower prices and better services. However, you are right, the system can be taken advantage of. Capitalism just needs to be regulated. The scandinavian countries are often referred to as socialist, but they aren't really, they're capitalist but there are government regulations.


I think Micheal would agree with that actually. He stated that he was disappointed that no new regulations have been passed by Obama so far in his term, and hopes to stimulate the American public to demand change.
#24
Quote by ExtremeMetalFTW
1. They are mixed-market economies that happen to be more regulated than the US

2. Show me a country where marxism or communism has been implemented

(Hint: it's not China, USSR, Cuba or North Korea)

1. yes, I agree. cool

2. I'm just gonna go ahead and use the standard argument here, as I am not too well versed on this topic, so will probably get my ass handed to me anyway. Marxism is too utopian of an idea. A person will not always work for the good of the people, especially when the opportunity for personal gain presents itself. From each according to ability, to each according to his need sounds great, but people will not necessarily be willing to give as much as they can, especially when they are being provided for

EDIT: I am aware that I did not answer point 2, because I know that there hasn't really been a country that implemented it properly

EDIT 2: and what they guy below me said
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#25
Quote by ExtremeMetalFTW
2. Show me a country where marxism or communism has been implemented

(Hint: it's not China, USSR, Cuba or North Korea)

I don't know whether you're supporting marxism or not but I would like to set things straight, just because marxism hasn't worked yet, doesn't mean it doesn't work. The reason marxism or communism doesn't work is because people have an incredible sense of entitlement, or they want to be at the top and control people mindlessly. Once we lose these stupid sentiments, people will be ready to accept living as equals and accomplishing things for the benefit of their people and progress in general, not for personal gain.
#26
Quote by namesroverrated
The idea of capitalism is not bad. The free market, and competing with other companies for business, this competition leading to lower prices and better services. However, you are right, the system can be taken advantage of. Capitalism just needs to be regulated. The scandinavian countries are often referred to as socialist, but they aren't really, they're capitalist but there are government regulations.

And I don't know if the people saying "marxism ftw" and stuff are kidding or not, but marxism definitely does not work.


Well, maybe the first idea wasn't bad. But to the point where it got today, there's something going wrong. I agree that being compensated for the work you put out is a must. I mean hey, I'm not gonna break my arse in four to get compensated just as much as someone who sat on his bum all week long. Capitalism might hold some good ideas, but there's so much wrong stuff going on, to me it just can't work(at least not the way it is right now).

I mean, the way I see it, you get paid more money if you can help another earn more money. That just can't work. It gets to the point where hockey players or actors get paid more then doctors. Or these people who actually are just paid to think of strategies to make more money and all. Often, the big companies that employ them end up exploiting kids in factories in third-world countries. I think there's just something sickening about this.

Edit: I'd just like to add, most people don't even know a damm about communism, except that they're the "bad guys". At least I know for sure when I graduated from high school, they've never thought me anything about the subject other then "Fear communism, 100 millions deaths" and all that propaganda. A lot, if not most of the people are really misinformed and it shows how capitalism isn't better.

I'm not saying that you should definatly be communist or whatever. What I'm saying is, at least before making a choice, inform yourself and make a good decision, rather than one based on what Uncle $am tells you(and by that I do not mean the US, I really mean the whole system as it is today).
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Last edited by Spike6sic6 at Oct 2, 2009,
#27
Quote by ExtremeMetalFTW
Social-democrat?

Then you are as much my political opponent as conservatives.


I'm fairly certain I would agree with you in most debates though, as ideologically, I'm a green communist. It's just that when I tried choosing a political party to join, I spent about a week doing different tests and reading up, and I'm conflicted on whether I'd like a communist state, and whether it'd actually work.

I am reconsidering my stance in politics though, and will probably end up with joining the Green Party.

Quote by ExtremeMetalFTW
Social-democracy is way to placate the masses so they don't revolt, and yet exploit them enough to keep profit and prosperity in the higher margins


I'll probably agree with you, but I'd like to hear just a little bit more about that.
#28
Quote by Z_cup_boy
You are acting as if both cannot relate.


That was Micheal's description on Real Time last week, not mine.
#29
Quote by namesroverrated
1. yes, I agree. cool

2. I'm just gonna go ahead and use the standard argument here, as I am not too well versed on this topic, so will probably get my ass handed to me anyway. Marxism is too utopian of an idea. A person will not always work for the good of the people, especially when the opportunity for personal gain presents itself. From each according to ability, to each according to his need sounds great, but people will not necessarily be willing to give as much as they can, especially when they are being provided for

EDIT: I am aware that I did not answer point 2, because I know that there hasn't really been a country that implemented it properly

EDIT 2: and what they guy below me said


This answer makes much more sense than your previous statement.

While it may seem like just an ideal, if it hasn't been implemented, we can't say for sure it won't work.


If we try it (truly try it), and it doesn't work, well i'll swallow my pride and admit i'm wrong.


until then, i still have the belief it will work.

Quote by st.stephen
I don't know whether you're supporting marxism or not but I would like to set things straight, just because marxism hasn't worked yet, doesn't mean it doesn't work. The reason marxism or communism doesn't work is because people have an incredible sense of entitlement, or they want to be at the top and control people mindlessly. Once we lose these stupid sentiments, people will be ready to accept living as equals and accomplishing things for the benefit of their people and progress in general, not for personal gain.

Being a communist of the democratic -socialist variety, it'd be damn silly of me to support some form of Marxism

I totally agree with you
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#30
Quote by ExtremeMetalFTW
This answer makes much more sense than your previous statement.

While it may seem like just an ideal, if it hasn't been implemented, we can't say for sure it won't work.


If we try it (truly try it), and it doesn't work, well i'll swallow my pride and admit i'm wrong.


until then, i still have the belief it will work.


Being a communist of the democratic -socialist variety, it'd be damn silly of me to support some form of Marxism

I totally agree with you


You are right that we can't really know until we try it, so I guess absolute statements like the one I made are stupid. Will rephrase: If we were to implement it, I do not think it would work.

Quote by Spike6sic6
Well, maybe the first idea wasn't bad. But to the point where it got today, there's something going wrong. I agree that being compensated for the work you put out is a must. I mean hey, I'm not gonna break my arse in four to get compensated just as much as someone who sat on his bum all week long. Capitalism might hold some good ideas, but there's so much wrong stuff going on, to me it just can't work(at least not the way it is right now).

I mean, the way I see it, you get paid more money if you can help another earn more money. That just can't work. It gets to the point where hockey players or actors get paid more then doctors. Or these people who actually are just paid to think of strategies to make more money and all. Often, the big companies that employ them end up exploiting kids in factories in third-world countries. I think there's just something sickening about this.

True, the system we have doesn't work. Turning completely away from capitalism will solve some problems, but create other ones. I am in favor of a mixed market system that is heavily regulated, like the scandinavian countries. Not completely socialism, not completely capitalism. Competition is still encouraged, leading to lower prices and better services, but corruption is almost eliminated by strict regulation
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#31
Quote by boffen
I'm fairly certain I would agree with you in most debates though, as ideologically, I'm a green communist. It's just that when I tried choosing a political party to join, I spent about a week doing different tests and reading up, and I'm conflicted on whether I'd like a communist state, and whether it'd actually work.

I am reconsidering my stance in politics though, and will probably end up with joining the Green Party.


I'll probably agree with you, but I'd like to hear just a little bit more about that.

Social democrats prefer a heavily regulated mixed-market economy.

they are in favor of several social programs, such as national h/c, yet do not nationalize many aspects of the economy.

While better than non-regulated economies, and better socially, they hinder true progress as there still is a rich class above that calls most of the shots, yet the people don't feel the need to progress as they are kept complacent through the few social programs in place.
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#32
Quote by Spike6sic6


I mean, the way I see it, you get paid more money if you can help another earn more money. That just can't work. It gets to the point where hockey players get paid more then doctors. Or these people who actually are just paid to think of strategies to make more money and all. Often, the big companies that employ them end up exploiting kids in factories in third-world countries. I think there's just something sickening about this.


I totally agree with all your statements. I guess its finding the right balance through regulation to stop the worst of the problems. In the USA, the top 1% of the of income earners has more money than the bottom 95% combined. That tells you something's not quite right.
Last edited by Tempoe at Oct 2, 2009,
#33
Quote by beadhangingOne
I hope he is not making money off of this private endeavor haha. Free tickets/online streaming would be a nice touch.


he's been telling everyone not to pay for his movie.
#34
Quote by namesroverrated

True, the system we have doesn't work. Turning completely away from capitalism will solve some problems, but create other ones. I am in favor of a mixed market system that is heavily regulated, like the scandinavian countries. Not completely socialism, not completely capitalism. Competition is still encouraged, leading to lower prices and better services, but corruption is almost eliminated by strict regulation

sounds very much like social-democracy.
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#35
Interesting. Not a big fan of capitalism, but that don't make me a communist like most naive americans think. I do find some good aspects in liberalism (I like music...), bur I have found that liberalism and capitalism is somewhat different. Capitalism is based on the weak and poor. Poor people are poor in order for the rich to stay rich to no real... Uh... gain...

Maybe I'll get a lot of **** out of this but I hope you catch my drift with an open mind and I really look forward to see the movie. ^^
#37
democracy = voting

capitalism = making lots and lots of money but not really cause the systems kinda bunk right now.
#38
Socialism is a giant bowl of **** soup.


If Michael Moore is so concerned with the common wealth of man, why doesn't this ****ing obese gastrapod cut down on the ****ing twinkies and cheese burgers? If democrates/lefties are so concerned with energy consevation and reducing their consumption why is this dick tree like a 1 ton sak o ****?
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Last edited by Phil Collins at Oct 2, 2009,
#39
Quote by Nauticus
Interesting. Not a big fan of capitalism, but that don't make me a communist like most naive americans think. I do find some good aspects in liberalism (I like music...), bur I have found that liberalism and capitalism is somewhat different. Capitalism is based on the weak and poor. Poor people are poor in order for the rich to stay rich to no real... Uh... gain...

Maybe I'll get a lot of **** out of this but I hope you catch my drift with an open mind and I really look forward to see the movie. ^^

what?


Communism has as much to do with music as does any other form of government.


true communism does not involve the infringement of human rights or censorship.
Quote by Phil Collins
Socialism is a giant bowl of **** soup.


If Michael Moore is so concerned with the common wealth of man, why doesn't this ****ing obese gastrapod cut down on the ****ing twinkies and cheese burgers? If democrates/lefties are so concerned with energy consevation and reducing their consumption why is this dicktree like a 1 ton **** sak o ****?

i do hope this is sarcasm
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#40
My impression of Moore is that he's a left-leaning liberal advocating more tightly regulated capitalism rather than doing away with capitalism all together, and if i recall correctly he's even said in interviews that he does not identify as a socialist. Still, the film seems interesting and I'll probably go see it.
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