Page 1 of 6
#1
You must understand, I am American, and as such this does contain certain bias but feel free to call me out on what I say if it doesn't apply to you; that's the point of this discussion.

You'd ask most people out there today how they feel about society's progress over this century and they'll most likely say that we've done pretty well, we'll mostly agree on that.

We've created automobiles, learned how to fly, and our technology now reaches out to the edge of our solar system, and we can see beyond our galaxy cluster. Not even 250 years ago, we were uncertain of Earth's map, and now look.

The 1900s have obviously had the most progress technologically, and it seems to exponentially increase as time goes by. In 50 years, we go from the Wright Bros. 100 foot flight, to the Moon and back.

Logically you'd think that we've progressed as a race from these facts. But I had a discussion today with a classmate at my school (extreme anti-obama; he was wearing a pin that had Obama photoshopped to be Hitler) that made me look at this differently. I simply said to him that "I don't think Obama is going to get assassinated just because he is black."

He said "Well he was elected wasn't he?"

How is it possible that we are at a point of unimaginable technological progress and power as a race, but so many people can still doubt a man because of the color of his skin? I was not raised in such an environment, but I went to a hick high school, and when I originally heard that A black man was running for president (I remember perfectly, in History class in high school of Spring 07) no one believed him, on the basis that a black man couldn't be president because society wouldn't let it happen.

If your basis for not believing Obama could be president is because society won't let it happen, isn't this a paradox? If you don't think society will let it happen, YOU'RE not letting it happen, this is just an existentialist ideal.

Then the same thing can be said with religion; he's muslim, he can't lead this country. Why? A christian can lead the country, but a muslim can't? The land of opportunity, but only if you believe what we do.

My question for the pit: Is the reason why people are so contemptuous of different religions and/or races in society, not because they feel racist themselves, but simply because they believe societies norms do not allow black progress?

Following that line of logic, doesn't that make society, as a whole, racist?



I apologize for the wall of text but this has been bugging me, and I'm up for a nice intellectual conversation.

What are your thoughts?

tl;dr; read underline
"The future's uncertain, and The End is always near."
-Jim Morrison
Last edited by SlinkyBlue at Oct 6, 2009,
#2
I don't think Obama is actually a Muslim by the way, but I may be wrong.

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#4
Hmm. Seeing as I respect you, Slinky, and I'm having a hum-diddly do of a time in the other thread, this interests me greatly.

I'll discuss it tomorrow, but for now I'm going to bed, so, just for now...
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#5
Quote by Zero-Hartman
I don't think Obama is actually a Muslim by the way, but I may be wrong.


Even better; Someone fabricated him to be muslim to tarnish his reputation. I find it ridiculous that this would tarnish his reputation because he is a Muslim when the damn constitution ensures Freedom of Religion.

Quote by Gmp
Believing something can't happen because society doesn't allow it doesn't mean you personally won't allow it, the individual saying that doesn't have to hold the opinion, they're just pointing out that on the whole, society won't let it happen (But it did, so...)


The existentialist method of thought is oriented around "What if everyone thought like that?"

I enjoy this line of logic- Girl says "Lets not go to the movies, it's going to be packed"

I say "What if everyone is thinking that?"

My point is that, even though I don't know very many true racists who believe in the inferiority of blacks, almost everyone doubted that he would become president. It doesn't make sense to me.
"The future's uncertain, and The End is always near."
-Jim Morrison
Last edited by SlinkyBlue at Oct 6, 2009,
#6
Believing something can't happen because society doesn't allow it doesn't mean you personally won't allow it, the individual saying that doesn't have to hold the opinion, they're just pointing out that on the whole, society won't let it happen (But it did, so...)
#7
"Is this reason why people are so contemptuous of different religions and/or races in society, not because they feel racist themselves, but simply because they believe societies norms do not allow black progress?"

I think it's a little bit of both. I'd elaborate but it's late and I have an early class tomorrow. But this would make a great topic for a paper. Very intriguing.
#8
Quote by SlinkyBlue
Even better; Someone fabricated him to be muslim to tarnish his reputation. I find it ridiculous that this would tarnish his reputation because he is a Muslim when the damn constitution ensures Freedom of Religion.

Yup, it's pretty pathetic.

It must be worth noting that the USA was founded as a secularist nation and many of the Founding Fathers agreed that religion should be left out of politics and such.

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#9
Important thing here people gotta remember.

There's a difference between someone who hates religion and someone who is being racist. You can choose to follow archaic and insane laws and there is NOTHING wrong with people disagreeing with that, you can't choose your ethnic background though so obviously hatred based on ethnic background is retarded
#10
Quote by Zoot Allures
Important thing here people gotta remember.

There's a difference between someone who hates religion and someone who is being racist. You can choose to follow archaic and insane laws and there is NOTHING wrong with people disagreeing with that, you can't choose your ethnic background though so obviously hatred based on ethnic background is retarded


You raise a good point.
"The future's uncertain, and The End is always near."
-Jim Morrison
#11
Yeah, it's a real shame we can't know what everyone else on Earth is thinking, so we have to make assumptions based on what we experience and are told by others and the media.
#12
Nope. Society as a whole is racist. Individuals are racist too, whether they admit it or not.

Obama is an exceptionally talented speaker, one of the best in decades. He ran one of the most well organized races since Kennedy in 1960. Yet, he still only barely edged out a marginal campaigner. McCain is widely respected on both sides of the aisle, easily more experienced and qualified, but has long been at odds with his own conservative base. He failed to energize the populace while on the campaign trail. He insisted on absurd nonsense ("...the fundamentals of our economy are strong...") in spite of all logical evidence and common sense. Even still, in the popular vote, Obama barely edged him out. The electoral vote landslide shows how well the campaign was run by Obama, but the popular vote tells the truth: millions of americans would rather have no health care for their children than ever call a n*gger "sir".

That last line is me making fun of racists, btw.
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Last edited by millerdrr at Oct 6, 2009,
#13
I really don't care who is president right now or ever for that matter. If they can make things better for the country as a whole then put the first black chinese jew up there then. A president takes the oath to serve the people which is why I don't get why so many say we gotta do what he says. We choose him to represent us not the other way around. Black or not black or whatever the race is, If the president can't do his job then he should be condemned. It just so happens Obama is black that's what we blame him for. race doesn't matter only ideals
#14
Quote by SlinkyBlue
Even better; Someone fabricated him to be muslim to tarnish his reputation. I find it ridiculous that this would tarnish his reputation because he is a Muslim when the damn constitution ensures Freedom of Religion.


The existentialist method of thought is oriented around "What if everyone thought like that?"

I enjoy this line of logic- Girl says "Lets not go to the movies, it's going to be packed"

I say "What if everyone is thinking that?"


My point is that, even though I don't know very many true racists who believe in the inferiority of blacks, almost everyone doubted that he would become president. It doesn't make sense to me.

And when you get there and she's right? Clearly not everyone doubted his chances at presidency. Over 50% of America, in fact. Otherwise the Democrats wouldn't let him take the primaries. Stop forcing the facts to fit your theories.
#15
Actually, I think the fact that Obama's black helped him get elected. This is a generation of non-conformists, right? Why choose the boring old white guy when you have the fresh young black guy?

EDIT: Not to say that it's the only reason he got elected. I just think it's a factor.
Last edited by Seref at Oct 6, 2009,
#16
I would love to discuss this when my head isn't throbbing and I need some sleep. Will post a real response tomorrow. Either way, this is a great topic to bring up. Kudos, TS
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#17
Quote by millerdrr
Nope. Society as a whole is racist. Individuals are racist too, whether they admit it or not.

Obama is an exceptionally talented speaker, one of the best in decades. He ran one of the most well organized races since Kennedy in 1960. Yet, he still only barely edged out a marginal campaigner. McCain is widely respected on both sides of the aisle, easily more experienced and qualified, but has long been at odds with his own conservative base. He failed to energize the populace while on the campaign trail. He insisted on absurd nonsense ("...the fundamentals of our economy are strong...") in spite of all logical evidence and common sense. Even still, in the popular vote, Obama barely edged him out. The electoral vote landslide shows how well the campaign was run by Obama, but the popular vote tells the truth: millions of americans would rather have no health care for their children than ever call a n*gger "sir".

That last line is me making fun of racists, btw.

Poor idiots who refuse to work voted for Obama. People with jobs and care about their children have healthcare for them.
#18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRqcfqiXCX0

There are a lot of uneducated people out there. I really do think education is the key. Not necessarily direct school education only too. Traveling, reading, things like that. I grew up in an all white country town and then moved in with an African American for school. I go home and see people who just haven't experienced things outside of the town who are still racist. It's just like, get it together bro.
#19
Quote by Zero-Hartman
Yup, it's pretty pathetic.

It must be worth noting that the USA was founded as a secularist nation and many of the Founding Fathers agreed that religion should be left out of politics and such.


Founding fathers agreed on a lot of **** that nobody gives two ****s about. They also wanted a small central government with larger state governments.
#20
Quote by captaincrunk
Poor idiots who refuse to work voted for Obama. People with jobs and care about their children have healthcare for them.


Oh, sorry, I overlooked how simple it is. You are absolutely right.

*applies for job as CEO at every Fortune 100 company
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#21
Is it being racist or just trying to protect their culture? Every ethnicity has a different culture why do some have to accept someone else's and lose some of their own culture in the process.

I don't necessarily think racism is justified, but a racist is just someone stating an opinion.
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#22
Quote by captaincrunk
And when you get there and she's right? Clearly not everyone doubted his chances at presidency. Over 50% of America, in fact. Otherwise the Democrats wouldn't let him take the primaries. Stop forcing the facts to fit your theories.


Forcing the facts? What facts am I forcing? I'm sharing a method of thought that should be considered. Hostility is not necessary.

Yes, if you didn't think I predicted people retorting "Well he got more people to vote for him durr" argument, you're mistaken, and you are obviously missing the greater point here. Turn on your television and browse through the news and tell me you don't hear a reference to Obama being black within 20 minutes. More like 5 on Fox. Why does it matter?

Quote by captaincrunk
Poor idiots who refuse to work voted for Obama. People with jobs and care about their children have healthcare for them.


If this pattern of hostility and outright ignorance continues I've got to say you're really not welcome in this discussion. Black-and-white minded sheep have no place in an intellectual discourse.
"The future's uncertain, and The End is always near."
-Jim Morrison
Last edited by SlinkyBlue at Oct 6, 2009,
#23
He's got a funny sounding name, of course he's muslim. And that totally disqualifies him from being an effective president.

I know a few mormons (a bit sore after Mitt Romney's failure, perhaps?), and of course they rather dislike Obama. "NOBAMA!" is a term I've grown rather sick of hearing.
#24
Quote by millerdrr
Oh, sorry, I overlooked how simple it is. You are absolutely right.

*applies for job as CEO at every Fortune 100 company


Hey, if you become really successful on wall street maybe you will become one of Obama's cabinet members, since that is where they are all from!
#25
Quote by millerdrr
Oh, sorry, I overlooked how simple it is. You are absolutely right.

*applies for job as CEO at every Fortune 100 company


Well, to be fair, you hardly need a CEO position to have healthcare. When I was 7 and my sister was 10, my dad quit his job to go back to college. We lived off of my mom's almost-minimum wage salary. We were never uninsured.
#26
Quote by Seref
Actually, I think the fact that Obama's black helped him get elected. This is a generation of non-conformists, right? Why choose the boring old white guy when you have the fresh young black guy?

That's not a non-conformist approach: in fact it's conformist. This is a society obsessed with image, celebrity and style. Obama had or was given all of these by his team - he was marketed.
#27
yup, we're racist.

I kind of think it might be a DNA thing. Who knows though, it just seems natural. It can't really be workled out quickly...
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#28
Quote by blue_strat
That's not a non-conformist approach: in fact it's conformist. This is a society obsessed with image, celebrity and style. Obama had or was given all of these by his team - he was marketed.


Also a good topic to talk about; I think Obama's campaign was one of the most brilliantly run campaigns in American history.
"The future's uncertain, and The End is always near."
-Jim Morrison
#29
Quote by Seref
Well, to be fair, you hardly need a CEO position to have healthcare. When I was 7 and my sister was 10, my dad quit his job to go back to college. We lived off of my mom's almost-minimum wage salary. We were never uninsured.


Yes, but that takes a spectacular amount of good luck. Almost no job paying less than $30-35k a year provides any type of insurance. Unless you count AFLAC, which is completely worthless.
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Rats, I thought someone would sig it and make me famous...

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#30
Quote by SlinkyBlue
Forcing the facts? What facts am I forcing? I'm sharing a method of thought that should be considered. Hostility is not necessary.

Yes, if you didn't think I predicted people retorting "Well he got more people to vote for him durr" argument, you're mistaken, and you are obviously missing the greater point here. Turn on your television and browse through the news and tell me you don't hear a reference to Obama being black within 20 minutes. More like 5 on Fox. Why does it matter?


Really Fox never talks about his race. They talk about him being an extremist muslim, but they never talk about him being black.

All election long it was "FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT OR FIRST WOMAN PRESIDENT!!!! OMG SUCH A BIG ELECTION!!"... Hell, even when he got elected we had a month of black people crying on TV and newscasters going on about being so progressive because we have a black president.

Now you have Jimmy Carter(probably smarter than Hawking) bringing up racism, and all of the sudden every person who disagrees with obama is a racist... I wish people would quit making up excuses for his unpopularity.
#31
I don't have a problem with a black man being president (although, it factored greatly into his getting elected, anyone who thinks otherwise is just ignorant), it's the fact that he smooth talked his way into the presidency, and hasn't done **** but raise taxes and put our country into greater debt.
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i just wanted her poon and she wanted me to have her poon.

so i had myself some poon.
#32
Quote by Seref
Actually, I think the fact that Obama's black helped him get elected. This is a generation of non-conformists, right? Why choose the boring old white guy when you have the fresh young black guy?

EDIT: Not to say that it's the only reason he got elected. I just think it's a factor.


No this is a generation of conforming to non-conformity. In my college, Barack Obama was wildly popular when he was going through the election process, yet now that he's President, there is a vast majority opposing him, many supported him when he was running. People are hopping to what seems to be the "Out" thing to do in such large numbers that it's actually the "In" thing.
#33
Quote by dustyboy316
yup, we're racist.

I kind of think it might be a DNA thing. Who knows though, it just seems natural. It can't really be workled out quickly...

It is natural to be apprehensive about things we don't understand, and however many barriers have been broken down, black culture still alienates white people. And vice versa, but there are more white people in the West, so only the black people are allowed to complain about alienation.
#34
Quote by blue_strat
That's not a non-conformist approach: in fact it's conformist. This is a society obsessed with image, celebrity and style. Obama had or was given all of these by his team - he was marketed.


Yeah, but it's pretty much the opposite of what this generation grew up with (and all generations in the US, for that matter). I think his image really doesn't matter as long as you're doing something that was unheard of in a previous era.
#35
Quote by Zombee
Really Fox never talks about his race. They talk about him being an extremist muslim, but they never talk about him being black.

All election long it was "FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT OR FIRST WOMAN PRESIDENT!!!! OMG SUCH A BIG ELECTION!!"... Hell, even when he got elected we had a month of black people crying on TV and newscasters going on about being so progressive because we have a black president.

Now you have Jimmy Carter(probably smarter than Hawking) bringing up racism, and all of the sudden every person who disagrees with obama is a racist... I wish people would quit making up excuses for his unpopularity.


I think what Jimmy Carter said was stupid. It helps this discussion to. I can't believe such a huge political figure would say that people disagree with his policies because he's black.

People would still dislike Obama's policies and political actions were he a middle aged white man. Being black is an accessory to haters.
"The future's uncertain, and The End is always near."
-Jim Morrison
#36
Quote by Zombee
Really Fox never talks about his race. They talk about him being an extremist muslim, but they never talk about him being black.


Well, I hadn't heard about the extremist muslim bit in a while. Lately they're just calling him a socialist.
#37
Quote by SlinkyBlue
Forcing the facts? What facts am I forcing? I'm sharing a method of thought that should be considered. Hostility is not necessary.

Yes, if you didn't think I predicted people retorting "Well he got more people to vote for him durr" argument, you're mistaken, and you are obviously missing the greater point here. Turn on your television and browse through the news and tell me you don't hear a reference to Obama being black within 20 minutes. More like 5 on Fox. Why does it matter?


If this pattern of hostility and outright ignorance continues I've got to say you're really not welcome in this discussion. Black-and-white minded sheep have no place in an intellectual discourse.

I'm a sheep for disagreeing with nearly everyone else in the thread? Right....
#38
Quote by C_Miller
No this is a generation of conforming to non-conformity. In my college, Barack Obama was wildly popular when he was going through the election process, yet now that he's President, there is a vast majority opposing him, many supported him when he was running. People are hopping to what seems to be the "Out" thing to do in such large numbers that it's actually the "In" thing.


Maybe. But perhaps its because he effectively "sold out" on liberal reform policy? Like the other guy said, all his cabinet members are CEOs, not union leaders. He promised a lot yet compromises all the time at the slightest resistance.

Why even bother with all this town hall meeting nonsense? Dems had enough votes to ram it through. Fuck Republicans, they deserve it.
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Rats, I thought someone would sig it and make me famous...

it was going to be my big break

#39
We spend 8 years bitching about government and now we have assholes telling us to give the government all of the power.
#40
Quote by C_Miller
No this is a generation of conforming to non-conformity. In my college, Barack Obama was wildly popular when he was going through the election process, yet now that he's President, there is a vast majority opposing him, many supported him when he was running. People are hopping to what seems to be the "Out" thing to do in such large numbers that it's actually the "In" thing.


People are against him now because he ran on a platform of change, and that he would fix everything.

He hasn't.

People have started to notice that all that money they threw into the economy didn't help, and that he has spent more time lobbying for the 2016 Chicago olympics than he has on... anything so far. His campaign promises were just words to get him into office, and now that he's here, he doesn't know what to do. 1 term as a senator doesn't give the experience necissary to run a country. However, that guy that's been serving the country for longer than Obama has been alive...
Quote by Teh Traineez0rz
yeah was weird cause she liked us both but she loved him and for some reason she let me know beforehand.

i just wanted her poon and she wanted me to have her poon.

so i had myself some poon.