#1
Like what am I missing from being able to improvise/write a solo? say I learn a shape...A harm minor or a pentatonic shape or whatever, what knowledge do I need to be able to turn that into a solo?

I mean knowing which notes to use from the solo, in which order, etc?
#2
you honestly don't need anything to turn that into a solo, just play within the box and something will eventually come out....

now to make it sound decent, look at how other guitarplayers/bands use those scales and work with those songs to help give you ideas on how to apply them.\

also along with scales come with a set of chords that work with it, if the chords arent in the scale, you need to use a different one... or be very creative... idk tbh
#3
firs of all, a scale isnot a shape, and learning it using shapes can greatly limit you.

the best thing you can do now is to listen for yourself how every note from the scale sounds to the chord, does it want to resolve to another note from the scale (and to which one?), or is it a tone from the chord, etc. so basically how consonant or dissonant do you think it sounds, what u wanna hear after that note
(it depends on the relation of the note to the root and tonality)

now just start making melodies out of the scale, not to a backing, just to 1 chord so you get to know the sound of the scale, see what notes sound like the end of a line and end on those
now try to link the phrases together

thats the basics of basic soloing, just practise, you'll get better

another great exercise is to sing a melody using the scale then play what you just sung, it'll get you free from thinking scale-wise and more music-wise
#4
Your doomed to learn shapes no matter what, as they obviously exist on the fret board. You want to learn how to build phrases.
Quote by UtBDan
this man hits the nail on the head.
#5
You can solo in boxes, but it limits you greatly, it makes it sound like you're playing within a box, you want to change that and make it like you're playing in boxes parallelograms and triangles and whatever else you can think of, make chords out of the different notes you know in the scale, franken chords slides bends etc, that'll make your blocky scales a solo.

Once you can do that you can learn how to emphasize different parts of the track you play upon, take 12 bar blues for example

4E 4A 8E 8A 8E 4B 4A 4E IIRC

during the 4 B's you might want to play higher and more ener getically so that you can emphasize the "lifiting" feeling of the B
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#6
Quote by blueriver
Your doomed to learn shapes no matter what, as they obviously exist on the fret board. You want to learn how to build phrases.


Obviously I want to learn that, just no real idea how to..
#7
The thing is, when you play more complex music (jazz, anyone?), the song may modulate around different keys. You can't just find the key signature and play that scale the whole time. You need to actually read the chords on the paper, think through the chord tones on the fly, and play around them and accent the key tones.

Hence the reason why improvisation is quite a task.
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#8
Quote by Sarissa
Like what am I missing from being able to improvise/write a solo? say I learn a shape...A harm minor or a pentatonic shape or whatever, what knowledge do I need to be able to turn that into a solo?

I mean knowing which notes to use from the solo, in which order, etc?


So what do you already know? Do you just know a shape, or do you know some actual scales? By that I mean, do you just associate a particular scale with a shape on the fretboard, or do you know which notes you are playing when you are playing a particular scale.

Also, do you understand how you make chords from a scale?
#9
Quote by Myshadow46_2
So what do you already know? Do you just know a shape, or do you know some actual scales? By that I mean, do you just associate a particular scale with a shape on the fretboard, or do you know which notes you are playing when you are playing a particular scale.

Also, do you understand how you make chords from a scale?


I...sort of meddle in between?

I mean I can hear and say, that's a harmonic minor, or that's a pentatonic, I don't exactly know why musically, I mean I know that the difference between playing them on my guitar involves my fingers changing a fret here and there.

So I guess I know them as shapes, I sort of know they work as a formula though, like a tone (two frets) or a half (one fret) on each string, not sure how they relate to one another from string to string.

I know chords are also formulas, so a root and a 5th equal a power and a major is..I don't know, a root a third and a fifth? But am unable to find these relationships on my board. I don't know that many chord shapes either I know the majors, minors, powers and a few barrs. Oh and Cadd9. I have a chord book but it doesn't tell me what I need to learn, just lists one gazillion chords and scales.
#10
When you get the tune in your head , just humm alead then put it on the fretboard, there i was in downtown whereever i was broke ,still play my axe....... that didn,t save me ,,,,,, no, but guess what did? that,s right i could h.............
#11
I tend to disagree with people saying not to learn the shapes. I think its perfectly fine if you also learn where the intervals are located in those shapes and how to use them

in fact I made a lesson for that which is in my sig

||
\/
#12
It's moar about not playing the wrong notes, than sticking to a specific scale.
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#13
Quote by The4thHorsemen
I tend to disagree with people saying not to learn the shapes. I think its perfectly fine if you also learn where the intervals are located in those shapes and how to use them

in fact I made a lesson for that which is in my sig

||
\/
+1 (and that goes for the lesson too )

Understand where the shapes come from, and they are a really useful tool.
#14
Quote by The4thHorsemen
I tend to disagree with people saying not to learn the shapes. I think its perfectly fine if you also learn where the intervals are located in those shapes and how to use them

in fact I made a lesson for that which is in my sig

||
\/


Cheers, looking through it one thing gets me though, what do you mean by first position, second etc? I mean where do they start on the neck?
#15
Quote by Sarissa
Cheers, looking through it one thing gets me though, what do you mean by first position, second etc? I mean where do they start on the neck?


If you knew the notes used in the scales as well as the shapes you'd have a better all round understanding. The 1st position will start on the root note of the scale you are playing. The other positions will start on different notes, but you'll be playing the same notes in the scale, just in a different order. Have a look into the circle of fifths alongside the patterns this will help you know which notes you are playing when you play a particular major key. It is also helpful to have learnt where all the notes on the fretboard are and to have a good understanding of intervals.

As for actually writing a solo: I'd suggest finding (or making) a backing track in a particular key and improvising over it. Maybe limit your choice of notes (e.g. just play chord tones) to start with and find out what sounds good to you. It is also helpful to listen to\learn other solos by musicians. Learning their licks will expand the ideas that you have to play around with and will help you develop your phrasing.

It is almost certain that you won't just belt out outstanding solos from the beginning, you just need to practice, practice, practice.
#16
Quote by Sarissa
Cheers, looking through it one thing gets me though, what do you mean by first position, second etc? I mean where do they start on the neck?
You know where they start on the neck by understanding intervals/scale degrees. Learn scales in terms of notes and intervals, as myshadow said, and apply that to the shapes.
#20
Quote by Sarissa
Like what am I missing from being able to improvise/write a solo? say I learn a shape...A harm minor or a pentatonic shape or whatever, what knowledge do I need to be able to turn that into a solo?

I mean knowing which notes to use from the solo, in which order, etc?


You need experience.

Learn some solos
learn the associated shapes
Learn music theory
use your head


it takes time
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Oct 14, 2009,
#21
Just remember, there's no such thing as a wrong note.
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#23
Quote by tubatom868686
Yes there are...


Well, there isn't as long as you resolve the wrong notes.
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#24
I could argue against that ^

Saying theres no wrong notes in music is like saying that when you speak, theres no wrong words.
#25
Quote by Sarissa
Wow that's mega confusing...


It's really not confusing, but anything worth while usually involves a bit of work. This is the same method that you would learn in college if you did a music degree. It works. I've seen 4 year old kids and old lady beginners play piano by ear using this method.

Try and understand it, if you have any problems PM me and I will help you. This is the answer as to how do you solo.

Quote by Myshadow46_2
I wouldn't pay any attention to that. It's possibly got some use (I didn't read it all so couldn't say for sure) but you are a beginner and that confuses things IMO


bullsh!t. This method is routinely used to teach beginners how to play by ear by any decent music school, and universities. Read and understand the whole thread before you dismiss it. As I said, if you need help PM me.
Last edited by bubbamc119 at Oct 14, 2009,
#26
Quote by tubatom868686
I could argue against that ^

Saying theres no wrong notes in music is like saying that when you speak, theres no wrong words.


This is false. There are no wrong notes. If a person thinks something sounds good, it's right TO THEM. Everyone has a different opinion. Some people hate classical music and think it sucks. That's their opinion. They aren't wrong, no more than the composers of classical music are wrong.

Saying there are wrong notes in music is like saying someone's opinion is wrong. It's ridiculous.
#27
Quote by bubbamc119

bullsh!t. This method is routinely used to teach beginners how to play by ear by any decent music school, and universities. Read and understand the whole thread before you dismiss it. As I said, if you need help PM me.


Maybe it is, but TS is obviously very new to this and that is a lot to take in for somebody who is a beginner. As TS said "wow that's mega confusing" and if something is very confusing then that can put people off. TS needs to get some simpler concepts down before doing something like this, even if it is used to teach beginners.
#28
Quote by Myshadow46_2
Maybe it is, but TS is obviously very new to this and that is a lot to take in for somebody who is a beginner. As TS said "wow that's mega confusing" and if something is very confusing then that can put people off. TS needs to get some simpler concepts down before doing something like this, even if it is used to teach beginners.


We're discussing the concept in this thread: https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1214857

Hope it clarifies it for the TS somewhat.

To the TS - how old are you? Not having a go, If you're younger it may be harder to follow what I've written. If you need help PM me.
#29
There's also a big difference between being taught by a teacher - who can see when you don't understand and go back over things or explain a different way - and trying to teach yourself off the internet, where a lesson is a finite source of information, which won't go back and explain any bits you're stuck on.
#31
After you learn a scale, and techniques the solo with, the most important part comes in. The soul. Just play what you feel.
#32
Quote by timeconsumer09
This is false. There are no wrong notes. If a person thinks something sounds good, it's right TO THEM. Everyone has a different opinion. Some people hate classical music and think it sucks. That's their opinion. They aren't wrong, no more than the composers of classical music are wrong.

Saying there are wrong notes in music is like saying someone's opinion is wrong. It's ridiculous.


Someone can have whatever opinion they want. And they can express it through music. But if they "say" it wrong, then its still wrong. I think your missing what Im saying
#33
Quote by tubatom868686
Someone can have whatever opinion they want. And they can express it through music. But if they "say" it wrong, then its still wrong. I think your missing what Im saying


Who is 'they'? If any person thinks it sounds good, it's right to them. Even if the majority thinks it sounds bad. Music isn't about right or wrong, it's about what sounds good to the individual.

Give me an example of a note that's 'wrong'.
#34
Quote by timeconsumer09
Who is 'they'? If any person thinks it sounds good, it's right to them. Even if the majority thinks it sounds bad. Music isn't about right or wrong, it's about what sounds good to the individual.

Give me an example of a note that's 'wrong'.


"They" is who ever is making the music.

When I play, every note is important. I dont necessarily think about every single note before I play it (not in improve at least), but theres always a very specific idea in my head and theres notes that are definitely not part of that idea. And to me those notes are wrong

But I think our disagreement is because of perspective. Your thinking from the listeners perspective. Im thinking from the performers perspective.
#35
Quote by tubatom868686
"They" is who ever is making the music.

When I play, every note is important. I dont necessarily think about every single note before I play it (not in improve at least), but theres always a very specific idea in my head and theres notes that are definitely not part of that idea. And to me those notes are wrong

But I think our disagreement is because of perspective. Your thinking from the listeners perspective. Im thinking from the performers perspective.


Yes.