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#1
It seems like picking two notes on two different strings affects my playing considerably. There is a very large speed difference between my pure economy picking and picking with any inside or outside picking. If I'm playing pure economy, as in all sweeping or alternate picking on one string, it is MUCH faster than if I need to inside or outside pick. It doesn't even seem like the pros are very fast at it. I've seen one video of Paul Gilbert (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROp-VWP4Oyo) where at the end of the video he just plays two notes on two strings, and it's not that fast.

I know that there are other ways to play two notes on two strings, like hybrid + sweeping, and I know that the inside/outside picking doesn't have to be as fast as sweep/tremolo in order to shred, because most of the time there's more than one note per string, but I'd like to be able to simply alternate pick everything regardless of what notes are on what strings.

for example, i can play this


D D U D U U D U D D U D U U D U
----4-7-5-4---------4-7-5-4-----------
--5---------7-5-4-5---------7-5-4---

much faster than i can play this

D U D U D U D U D U D U D U D U
----4-7-5-4---------4-7-5-4-----------
--5---------7-5-4-5---------7-5-4---

and much much faster than this



-0---0----0---0----0
---0----0---0----0---0
#3
this is pointless. play it however feels the most comfortable. finger strength(legato) is more important.
#4
You should try playing more blues or folk songs. They often require those kinds of dynamics and changes.

It's important to remember not to stick to one technique all the time, like sweeping or economy picking, because when your playing needs to go somewhere else, you'll be very slow to catch up.
#6
Quote by cainmd
this is pointless. play it however feels the most comfortable. finger strength(legato) is more important.
This. Sometimes I don't even know what exact technique I'm using, I just play what I feel comfortable.
#7
Quote by cainmd
this is pointless. play it however feels the most comfortable. finger strength(legato) is more important.


Well if you are talking about traditional picking techniques to achieve legato, then yes finger strength is important - But in this thread, he specifically states economy and alternate picking.

-edit-

Its important to be both conformable with picking and sequencing hammer-ons and pull-offs.
<3<3<3MILKSHAKE<3<3<3
Last edited by Calibunga! at Oct 9, 2009,
#8
The so-manieth "Do you alternate or economy"-thread..

I use alternate on everything, if you really want to know.. and hybrid occasionally.
My outside is only just faster than my inside picking, I use both..
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#9
You need to stop economy picking. You will soon realize that it is an inefficient method of picking. I economy picked for the first year and a half of playing, and ever since i learnt alternate my playing has cleaned up and gained speed. TRUST me alternate is alot better than economy
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#11
this isn't economy vs alternate

i didn't mean to give that impression to you guys
read my post again

i'm talking about inside or outside picking (inclusive 'or') and the difference in speed between them and tremolo or sweeping.

unless you are doing pure economy, which i don't know anyone who does that, you still have to alternate pick some notes.

the difference between alt and eco is that with with eco, any time you would normally pick inward across strings, you simply sweep.

both eco and alt have outward picking.
and that is what i wanted to bring up.

I'm not advocating alt or eco, and I'm not asking which one is better. certainly pure eco is faster but i'm not talking about that. i didn't mean for my examples to come off like that.

here is another example
it requires inward/outward picking even if you are doing eco

---4-7-4---4-7-4
-5--------5-------

this wasn't an alt vs eco thread, it was more of a how fast can you... thread.

so yeah that is what i'm asking: how fast can you inward and outward pick? what is the world's fastest perhaps? paul gilbert is known for being able to pull off amazing string skipping, but his inward and outward picking still aren't that fast compared to tremolo or sweeping, which can both get over 400bpm 16th notes
#12
Well if you look at pretty much any technique you'll find that SOMEONE somewhere can do it really fast. My advice to you is to not base all your decisions off of which technique has this-much-more potential to be played 5bpm faster, but to decide your technique choices based off of the tone and overall feel you prefer. After all the ultimate goal is to sound good right?

For me personally though, inside picking has always been a relatively difficult thing to do compared to outside picking or sweeping. However sometimes it is necessary. Unless you specifically write music with an attempt to absolutely eliminate anything that could force you to use so-and-so technique (which I don't recommend because that wouldn't be very true to yourself as a composer), you're going to need to be proficient with all methods (although technically you can replace sweeping with string skipping/tapping--it may sound different though).
Last edited by fixationdarknes at Oct 9, 2009,
#13
Quote by fixationdarknes
Well if you look at pretty much any technique you'll find that SOMEONE somewhere can do it really fast. My advice to you is to not base all your decisions off of which technique has this-much-more potential to be played 5bpm faster, but to decide your technique choices based off of the tone and overall feel you prefer. After all the ultimate goal is to sound good right?


I agree. I think the only speed consideration when looking at a technique, is "will this technique work for playing at the speed needed for the kind of music I like to play". Which is a bit different than picking the technique that allows for the absolute maximum speed once mastered w/o considering tone and feel.
#14
I don't keep track dude, I just play. You'll eventually reach a point where you don't even hafta think of how to pick a certain piece, your fingers do it instinctively.
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#15
Almost everything thing I play, I use alt picking. Inside, outside, it's all the same to me.
Quote by Geldin
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#16
Don't even think about it. Just try and play it and see what happens.
#17
Quote by fixationdarknes
Well if you look at pretty much any technique you'll find that SOMEONE somewhere can do it really fast. My advice to you is to not base all your decisions off of which technique has this-much-more potential to be played 5bpm faster, but to decide your technique choices based off of the tone and overall feel you prefer. After all the ultimate goal is to sound good right?

For me personally though, inside picking has always been a relatively difficult thing to do compared to outside picking or sweeping. However sometimes it is necessary. Unless you specifically write music with an attempt to absolutely eliminate anything that could force you to use so-and-so technique (which I don't recommend because that wouldn't be very true to yourself as a composer), you're going to need to be proficient with all methods (although technically you can replace sweeping with string skipping/tapping--it may sound different though).

Well what I'm saying is that it seems like no one is that fast with inside and outside picking. I'm just curious how fast anyone has gotten it. I think I may have seen a video of buckethead in which he played one note per string across all six strings, alternate picking, not sweeping, very very fast, but I may have been mistaken, and I can't find the video now. I wonder if it is even possible to play one note per string very fast because you have to move in and out of the plane of the strings for every note, so it even surprising that it is any faster than all downstrokes.
#18
Quote by eddievanzant
Well what I'm saying is that it seems like no one is that fast with inside and outside picking. I'm just curious how fast anyone has gotten it. I think I may have seen a video of buckethead in which he played one note per string across all six strings, alternate picking, not sweeping, very very fast, but I may have been mistaken, and I can't find the video now. I wonder if it is even possible to play one note per string very fast because you have to move in and out of the plane of the strings for every note, so it even surprising that it is any faster than all downstrokes.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk_GMvIea6s

^Steve Morse alternate picking everything. On a side note he did develop carpal tunnel, but that wasn't a direct result of his ability to alt. pick arpeggios really well.

-edit; You can see his inside/outside picking more clearly in this video, although it doesn't seem to be as well-played http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76svWOj8B04
Last edited by fixationdarknes at Oct 10, 2009,
#19
Quote by GODhimself37
You need to stop economy picking. You will soon realize that it is an inefficient method of picking. I economy picked for the first year and a half of playing, and ever since i learnt alternate my playing has cleaned up and gained speed. TRUST me alternate is alot better than economy

that's utter bollocks - economy picking is by it's very nature more efficient than alt picking, that is an undisputable fact. However, whether or not it works for a particular player or if it fits with a particular piece, is purely a matter of personal opinion.
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#20
Eco picking removes a movement....far more efficient.

However i prefer alternate picking because when you lock into a rhythm i find it easier to use my wrist like a pendulum and go back/forth so as to stay in time.

TS: Stop worrying about it.

Well what I'm saying is that it seems like no one is that fast with inside and outside picking.

You have heard of Paul Gilbert right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z23AwGtsbuY
+
pretty much every video of him ever. He alternate picks sextuplets at like 150bpm, which is very fast.
Last edited by Ikonoklast at Oct 10, 2009,
#21
Quote by Ikonoklast

You have heard of Paul Gilbert right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z23AwGtsbuY
+
pretty much every video of him ever. He alternate picks sextuplets at like 150bpm, which is very fast.


I've never really seen him use inside picking, which is a big part of what TS seems to be asking about. All of his 'fast stuff' is outside picked or string skipped, I think he actually makes it a point to virtually never use inside picking other than what's necessary to move through 3nps licks.
Last edited by fixationdarknes at Oct 10, 2009,
#22
----------------------------------------
-----------7-----------------7------7-
--7-9-10---10-9-7-9-10----10----

Classic Gilbert lick, starting on an upstroke. Inside picking? Gilbert uses alternate picking most of the time which means he does inside pick, he can't help but inside pick. What school of picking did you go to!?

Why else other than 'what's necessary' would he specifically use inside picking? It occurs, you don't choose to do it.
Last edited by Ikonoklast at Oct 10, 2009,
#23
Firstly, Paul would start that lick with a downstroke.

And I'm not saying he can't inside pick, but if he had the choice he would arrange the fingering of his licks so that he primarily or only outside picked. In that sense he does choose.
#24
Quote by fixationdarknes
Firstly, Paul would start that lick with a downstroke.

And I'm not saying he can't inside pick, but if he had the choice he would arrange the fingering of his licks so that he primarily or only outside picked. In that sense he does choose.

Of course he would. I suggest you find the video where he starts it with an up, and also the video where he says he prefers starting licks with upstrokes.

Therefore, licks started on upstroke + 3nps = inside picking.

Not trying to be argumentative, just stating a fact.
#25
Quote by Ikonoklast
Of course he would. I suggest you find the video where he starts it with an up, and also the video where he says he prefers starting licks with upstrokes.

Therefore, licks started on upstroke + 3nps = inside picking.

Not trying to be argumentative, just stating a fact.


3nps is definitely inside picking, I said that in my own post. However, starting a lick with an upstroke doesn't necessarily mean inside picking. Go to 6:05 in this video, which is the video I believe you were talking about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpJNUGHxC3M

Sure he's starting with an upstroke, but he is doing so for the exact reason that he can outside pick it. A downstroke with that particular lick would lead to inside picking. He starts some licks with upstrokes for two reasons- one because he's Paul Gilbert and enjoys not being limited, two because oft times an upstroke start is required for outside picking, as seen in that video.
#26
Quote by fixationdarknes
3nps is definitely inside picking, I said that in my own post. However, starting a lick with an upstroke doesn't necessarily mean inside picking. Go to 6:05 in this video, which is the video I believe you were talking about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpJNUGHxC3M

Sure he's starting with an upstroke, but he is doing so for the exact reason that he can outside pick it. A downstroke with that particular lick would lead to inside picking. He starts some licks with upstrokes for two reasons- one because he's Paul Gilbert and enjoys not being limited, two because oft times an upstroke start is required for outside picking, as seen in that video.

I've seen that video before, but it's not the one i was talking about in reference to the lick.
If you're talking about the same lick as the one i posted, starting on a downstroke will lead to outside picking.

But regardless of that fact, PG regularly inside picks with lightning speed.
#28
Shawn Lane economy picks like a mother****er, and he crushes PG's speed -- just as clean too.

It's really a matter of what you like.

edit: here's a great example of incredibly fast economy picking. about 50 seconds in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1qD-75mtJ0
Last edited by itstheman at Oct 10, 2009,
#32
Wow...

I've said it before and I'll say it again...the matter of "alternate picking vs. economy picking" is relative to the TONE you're looking for. It has NOTHING to do with speed...you should be comfortable with both if you want to consider yourself an efficient picker.
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#33
Quote by itstheman
Shawn Lane economy picks like a mother****er, and he crushes PG's speed -- just as clean too.

It's really a matter of what you like.

edit: here's a great example of incredibly fast economy picking. about 50 seconds in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1qD-75mtJ0


i always assumed that shawn alt picked almost everything, are you sure this is economy picking?
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#34
When you're playing stuff as fast as Paul Gilbert, is there any reason to go any faster? Either way, how one picks is a preference. But here's what you cannot argue:
1. Economy picking is by its nature more efficient then alternate picking.
2. To some people, alternate picking is easier to keep rhythm with because of the consisten pendulum motion.
3. Economy picking has a more fluid sound then alternate picking.
#35
wth why post in a thread if you don't read even the first post

this isn't eco vs alt. it also isn't inside vs outside picking

i think that the argument about paul gilbert might be a misunderstanding. i've heard outside picking and inside picking referred to by the opposite name. some people call picking *to* the inside of two strings inside picking, and some people call picking *from* the inside of two strings inside picking, those two things being opposite of each other.

if i could make a suggestion, isn't it more clear to refer to them as outward picking and inward picking? every one would think that inward means inward and outward means outward.


  d u d u d u
e---0---0---0---0--
b-0---0---0---0----


some people call this inside picking because you are picking to the inside of two strings, and some people call it outside picking because you stay on the outside of two strings; however, it could be called inward picking because you are picking to the inside of two strings. if it was started on an upstroke it would be called outward picking. there, no more confusion.

i'm pretty sure everyone knows that paul gilbert likes to inward pick that's why he starts a lot of his phrases on an upstroke, so he's almost always picking toward the inside of two strings

and about speed, i still think what i said is correct. neither paul gilbert or steve morse are very fast at playing one note per string runs, whether it's inward or outward picking. if there's a small part of a run requiring inside or outside picking, it isn't going to slow down the run too much, though.

tumeni notes is played at 200 bpm triplets, yes? that is equivalent to 150 bpm 16th notes, or 10 notes per second. you could reach that speed with all downstrokes if you really worked at it.

the video of paul gilbert from my first post shows him playing one note per string 16th notes at around 12 notes per second, or about 180bpm, and the really isn't that fast. i'm not trying to insult him or anything because inward/outward picking is hard as ****, but comparing it to tremolo, or sweeping, which can get over 400bpm, if a lick can be played pure economy (no inward or outward picking, just tremolo and sweeping), it could be played possibly twice as fast as a lick requiring a large amount of inward/outward picking. obviously the fewer times you have to inward/outward pick throughout a lick, the faster it will go. that is why paul gilbert can pick 6 notes a beat at 150bpm, because only one or two of those six notes has to be inward/outward picked.


i'm just pointing out that inside/outside picking seems like it is only a little bit faster than all down/all upstrokes, and i think it is unfortunate.
#36
Quote by eddievanzant

tumeni notes is played at 200 bpm triplets, yes? that is equivalent to 150 bpm 16th notes, or 10 notes per second. you could reach that speed with all downstrokes if you really worked at it.


No, that is impossible. That would mean, if your upstrokes are *about* just as good, you could reach 20nps alt. picking.. How many people can do this, aye?
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#37
Quote by eddievanzant

tumeni notes is played at 200 bpm triplets, yes? that is equivalent to 150 bpm 16th notes, or 10 notes per second. you could reach that speed with all downstrokes if you really worked at it.


What are you basing this off of? If you simply throw in the ''if you really worked at it'' to your own argument, how is that not the same thing as what you just said lol

Quote by eddievanzant

i'm just pointing out that inside/outside picking seems like it is only a little bit faster than all down/all upstrokes, and i think it is unfortunate.



Again, I don't know where you get this idea. I've never really seen any downpicking much faster than 8 notes per second, and inside/outside doubles that.

I still don't even really get what you're trying to say/ask here
#38
Quote by lwayneio
i always assumed that shawn alt picked almost everything, are you sure this is economy picking?


Take a look at his hand, you can clearly see him eco. pick.

Find any close up solo if you still aren't too sure
#39
Quote by fixationdarknes
What are you basing this off of? If you simply throw in the ''if you really worked at it'' to your own argument, how is that not the same thing as what you just said lol


Again, I don't know where you get this idea. I've never really seen any downpicking much faster than 8 notes per second, and inside/outside doubles that.

I still don't even really get what you're trying to say/ask here

ok well i don't quite understand what you're trying to point out either lol

could you provide an example of anyone inside/outside picking twice as fast as 8 notes per second? unless paul gilbert was playing slow for no reason, the fastest he goes is about 12 nps.

what i'm asking is specifically how fast anyone could play this:


e---0---0-
b-0---0---

inside picking or outside picking
#40
Quote by eddievanzant

could you provide an example of anyone inside/outside picking twice as fast as 8 notes per second? unless paul gilbert was playing slow for no reason, the fastest he goes is about 12 nps.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIl3Qtjusqs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsUphx0yn4o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpJNUGHxC3M

In all of those at some point or another he picks at around 14-15 nps very clean and articulate. Shawn Lane picked faster than that and he wasn't always economy picking, but his videos are a bit harder to come by.

-edit; Okay here's a vid of Lane in '79 when he was 16 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXADYMCreLg it's mostly tremolo picking but there's also obviously inside/outside going on there at some points

Quote by eddievanzant

what i'm asking is specifically how fast anyone could play this:


e---0---0-
b-0---0---

inside picking or outside picking


How is this even relevant though. It's not like you can ''economy pick'' or ''sweep'' that; you're going to have to switch directions regardless of how you play it.
Last edited by fixationdarknes at Oct 10, 2009,
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