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#1
I just started playing the guitar a while ago and I still don't know that much about the theory terms.

I've read somewhere over the internet that there's a sign and the beggining of the song, or something like that, that notates what value does the beat get (so it might even be a half, eighth etc.).


But that person on the music store I've been to some days ago when I bought a pedal told me (asked some stuff about these terms) that a beat as always the quarter and that there's no other "value".

Is that true?


And also, I know that it's BPM (so basically, when you speak in actual terms [you can't just say "beat" without having a real value to associate it with], a 120 beat rate, for example, would be two beats per second), but that person insisted upon just saying that it's a "beat" and that you can't call it with seconds and that "116" is "116 beats" or some other thing that basically tells you nothing.

It is Beats-Per-Minute, right?
Last edited by UserN123 at Oct 9, 2009,
#3
Quote by Xenogis
that person isn't very smart


why dont you just answer his ****ing question instead of making snide ass remarks?

You are right its BPM. Im not sure if u mean like 4/4 time or like different time changes
I like burritos
#4
there is a time signature at the start of the piece. The top number asys how many beat in a bar, The bottom number denotes what is a beat.

if the bottom number is a 4 it means a quarter note, if it is an 8 it means on eight note.


It is Beats Per Minute. I think what he was meaning to say is that a beat can be any kind of note value. For example 120 BPM when the time signature is 6/8, in a whole minute there would be 20 bars. While if the time signature is 4/4 there would be 30 bars in a minute.
Last edited by mdwallin at Oct 10, 2009,
#5
I suggest that person looks into something called compound meters.
#6
Quote by Xenogis
that person isn't very smart

Agreed.

A quater note is not always a beat. time signaturs are written with two numbers (i.e 4/4) The first number represents beats in a bar. The second number represents what value of note is a beat.

For example
6/8 - 6 beats per measure with an 8th note receiving one beat.
6/4 - 6 beats per measure with the quater recieving one beat
2/2 - 2 beat per measure with the half note receiving one beat.
et cetera

BPM is Beats per minute

If the tempo was 116 BPM it wouldn't be 116 beats just as that. It would be 116 beats in a minute. I think that is what you were asking about anyways.
#7
In short, no it's not true.

In a time signature like 4/4, the beat is a quarter note. But in a time signature like 7/8, the beat is an eighth note, ie, the beat is on the bottom, and the number of beats is on top. Same for 2/2, 3/2, 3/8, etc (Theres heaps)

In compound time, however (6/8, 9/8, 12/8) the beat is a dotted crotchet, or a quarter+an eighth.

The guy has no idea what he's talking about. You CAN have BPM. That's how you identify the tempo on sheet music.

The tempo marker, called a metronome mark (probably has other names too) often has a crotchet, an '=' and then a number.



It is always in BPM (as far as I know) but the value of the beat is not always a crotchet, as shown above.

Hope this has been helpful.

Quote by stitches31
why dont you just answer his ****ing question instead of making snide ass remarks?


Whoa, nelly.
Last edited by Butt Rayge at Oct 10, 2009,
#8
The BPM was another question more specifically about the beatrate. I knew that, but apparently that person only knows how to say "no, no, see - I put it on this level in the metronome and now this is a beat" or something else the denotes no value.


And about the time signature - That's strange, but when I've asked about it more specifically and about the meaning of the x/x, I wanted to know if it only goes by *2 and he said that it does and talked about it. But apparently he doesn't know what the hell is this if it's exactly what the beat is yet he keeps telling that a beat is always a 4th.


So basically, if I have, for example, a 120BPM with a 4/8 time signature, it means that in each measure there are 4 eighths with each eighth having the value of 2Hz.

If I'll use a quarter in this situation, only 2 would go into a measure with each having the timespan of 2 beats (1Hz).


Even though that another issue I had was the actual meaning of the measures.
I mean, you play the notes as they're written according to their note value and BPM, so what's exactly the affect of the seperation?
He said that you emphasize the notation according to it, but that's probably more of a way of interpreting it or choosing how to play it.
#9
Hz is the of the pitch of the note, nothing with value.

In 4/8 time you would have 4 8th notes to a bar, correct. The length of the 8th would be to the tempo (116, 120, 240 etc)

The effect of separation? Do you mean short notes compared to long notes? If that is the case that is for phrasing.
#10
And about that Compund Meter, dotted crotchet... I don't know these terms so I can't really tell what is it about and if you do mean that he actually had some sense in his sayings.
#11
Quote by NoOne0507
Agreed.

A quater note is not always a beat. time signaturs are written with two numbers (i.e 4/4) The first number represents beats in a bar. The second number represents what value of note is a beat.

For example
6/8 - 6 beats per measure with an 8th note receiving one beat.
6/4 - 6 beats per measure with the quater recieving one beat
2/2 - 2 beat per measure with the half note receiving one beat.
et cetera

BPM is Beats per minute

If the tempo was 116 BPM it wouldn't be 116 beats just as that. It would be 116 beats in a minute. I think that is what you were asking about anyways.

Eighth notes are not the beat in 6/8. The first and fourth 8th notes are. It goes:
One-two-three-four-five-six.
The beat is effectively that of a dotted quarter note.

Edit - TS, I recommend this thread:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16336

Ask questions if there's anything you still don't get.
Quote by dudetheman
So what? I wasted like 5 minutes watching DaddyTwoFoot's avatar.


Metalheads are the worst thing that ever happened to metal.
Last edited by DaddyTwoFoot at Oct 10, 2009,
#12
Quote by DaddyTwoFoot
Eighth notes are not the beat in 6/8. The first and fourth 8th notes are. It goes:
One-two-three-four-five-six.
The beat is effectively that of a dotted quarter note.


No, that is the same as how 2 and 4 are emphasized in 4/4 time. in 6/8 1 and 4 are emphsized. 8th notes are still the beat.
#13
Hz means per-second. I basically translate 60BPM to 1Hz as it's one [beat] per second.


And I just read about that dotted... It just said that it's as 1 and a half quarters (something like 3 eighths). How does that have something to do with the time signature?


And I didn't ask about short/long, I've asked about the purpose of the measure. What does it actually do?
Last edited by UserN123 at Oct 10, 2009,
#14
Quote by UserN123

So basically, if I have, for example, a 120BPM with a 4/8 time signature, it means that in each measure there are 4 eighths with each eighth having the value of 2Hz.

If I'll use a quarter in this situation, only 2 would go into a measure with each having the timespan of 2 beats (1Hz).

If you have you time signature fo 4/8 it means there are 4 eight notes in a bar.. Each eight note is one beat. There will be 120 eigth noted ina minute
Quote by UserN123

Even though that another issue I had was the actual meaning of the measures.
I mean, you play the notes as they're written according to their note value and BPM, so what's exactly the affect of the seperation?
He said that you emphasize the notation according to it, but that's probably more of a way of interpreting it or choosing how to play it.

If you have a measure that is in 6/8 you count 1,2,3,4,5,6. But you will put emphasis on the 1 and 4. Like an irish jig or a waltz. If you wanted the emphasis on 1, 3, 5. You would put it in 3/4 and count 1,2,3.

The emphasis you put on a certain time signature is more down to convention than anything. Convention, and where you can evenly split it.

eg. You can split 6/8 in half. hence ONE, two three, FOUR, five six. but you can only split 3/4 into thirds. Half is the first way you try to split. If you can do that, then quarters. If you can't split it in half you go into thirds.

If the top number is prime number that can't be split evenly like 7. You need to just guess based on how the music is notated or how it sounds.
#15
I dotted note is 1 1/2 time the value of the regular note.

It would have to do with time signature as you may get sometime like
dotted quater = 90
A dotted quater note would be the pulse note and there would be 90 of them in one minute.

It is another pulse you may get. There can be half note = x, quater note = x, 8th note = x etc.
#16
And I understood... Nothing.

I've never heard a song (at least a rock song. Maybe some old "classical" music got it) that is divided into specified emphasizings.


And I've never seen it written as "Some note=Some number".


It has the BPM written for its own, as far as I've seen. Unless if that's the "compound meter" thing and there it can be assigned dirrectly to the note value (instead of writing something like 3/4*?).

But anyway, 90 dotted quarters is probably just like 135 quarters.
Last edited by UserN123 at Oct 10, 2009,
#17
Yes, you have heard a rock song divided with different emphasizes on the beat. You just don't know it yet.

You miss the point though. The "type of note = x" is the tempo/pulse. The other notes on the page are based around it and divided up accordingly.

Depending on what the time signature is you will have different pulses and thuse need to divide a bit differently.
#18
Quote by NoOne0507
No, that is the same as how 2 and 4 are emphasized in 4/4 time. in 6/8 1 and 4 are emphsized. 8th notes are still the beat.

Did you read what I wrote before replying? I said that 1 and 4 are. They are the beat, not each eighth note.
Quote by dudetheman
So what? I wasted like 5 minutes watching DaddyTwoFoot's avatar.


Metalheads are the worst thing that ever happened to metal.
#19
Quote by DaddyTwoFoot
Did you read what I wrote before replying? I said that 1 and 4 are. They are the beat, not each eighth note.


They aren't the beat. Those are just the two beats that are emphasized. It can feel like the beat, and there is a strong PULSE there, but the 8th notes are the beat.
#20
Quote by NoOne0507
They aren't the beat. Those are just the two beats that are emphasized.

Look, man, straight from Wiki:

Accentuation in Western Music

In all Western music (whatever the time signature), certain beats of each bar are inherently accented (played slightly louder) by the performer. In 6/8 the accented beats are usually the 1st and the 4th, or else the 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 6th (most commonly in jazz, rock and country).

Music can also be performed in 6/8 with a two-beat triplet feel (where the 1st and 4th beats act as beats 1 and 2).

The notes are grouped in two dotted crotchets per bar.

6/8 time is a compound meter, composed of two measures of 3/8 time compounded into one measure. It is from these compounded measures that two downbeats are felt during each measure of 6/8 time.


Most traditional Italian music is played in 6/8 time. When played at a faster tempo for dancing it is classified as a tarantella.

The beat in 6/8 is nearly always that of a dotted quarter note. Simple as that.

Edit - Unless you are differentiating between the beat and the pulse.
Quote by dudetheman
So what? I wasted like 5 minutes watching DaddyTwoFoot's avatar.


Metalheads are the worst thing that ever happened to metal.
Last edited by DaddyTwoFoot at Oct 10, 2009,
#21
Quote by UserN123

I've never heard a song (at least a rock song. Maybe some old "classical" music got it) that is divided into specified emphasizings.

rock songs are gerally in 4/4. Hence each 1,2,3,4 is emphasized. Although rock tends to emphasize the 2 and 4. (think of the standard rock drum beat. Bass on 1 and 3, snare on 2 and 4) Jazz tends to emphasize 1 and 3 (think of that swing beat on the high-hat.)
Quote by UserN123

And I've never seen it written as "Some note=Some number".

Just gotta look more sheet music. You'll see it eventually
Quote by UserN123

But anyway, 90 dotted quarters is probably just like 135 quarters.

Yes it is. technically speaking. It's just saying the first one lets you know where the amphasis is.
#22
Quote by DaddyTwoFoot
Look, man, straight from Wiki:


The beat in 6/8 is nearly always that of a dotted quarter note. Simple as that.

Edit - Unless you are differentiating between the beat and the pulse.


The beat is the 8ths the pulse is on 1 and 4. What I have been saying this whole time.

Music can also be performed in 6/8 with a two-beat triplet feel (where the 1st and 4th beats act as beats 1 and 2).
1) Notice how it says 1st and 4th beats?
2) They act like beat one and two. Yes it is the pulse, that is what I have been saying.
#23
Quote by NoOne0507
The beat is the 8ths the pulse is on 1 and 4. What I have been saying this whole time.

Music can also be performed in 6/8 with a two-beat triplet feel (where the 1st and 4th beats act as beats 1 and 2).
1) Notice how it says 1st and 4th beats?
2) They act like beat one and two. Yes it is the pulse, that is what I have been saying.

Fair enough, I concede the point. I'm used to thinking of the beat as the pulse, because I can't help but feel like thinking of music in any way other than the pulse is kind of useless.
Quote by dudetheman
So what? I wasted like 5 minutes watching DaddyTwoFoot's avatar.


Metalheads are the worst thing that ever happened to metal.
#25
Quote by UserN123
I've never heard a song (at least a rock song. Maybe some old "classical" music got it) that is divided into specified emphasizings.

Here's a song in 6/8 time, try counting out loud ONE two three FOUR five six once the drums come in. That's compound metre.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwq088UFfTg
#26
Quote by NoOne0507
The beat is the 8ths the pulse is on 1 and 4. What I have been saying this whole time.

Music can also be performed in 6/8 with a two-beat triplet feel (where the 1st and 4th beats act as beats 1 and 2).
1) Notice how it says 1st and 4th beats?
2) They act like beat one and two. Yes it is the pulse, that is what I have been saying.

In 6/8 there are two beats, simple as that. There are eight quavers but the beat falls on the first and fourth quavers.

Edit:
Quote by NoOne0507
No, that is the same as how 2 and 4 are emphasized in 4/4 time. in 6/8 1 and 4 are emphsized. 8th notes are still the beat.

No, that is not the same phenomenon. Firstly in 4/4 usually beats 1 and 3 are emphasized.

Secondly, there are only two beats in 6/8, and the 1st is emphasized more than the second. The emphasis is exactly the same as it is in 2/4.

6/8 is a compound time signature so the beat is a dotted crotchet, so there are two beats in each bar.

In 4/4 the beats 1 and 3 are usually emphasized, not 2 and 4 (unless it's syncopated).
Last edited by 12345abcd3 at Oct 10, 2009,
#27
Quote by UserN123
What the hell is "the pulse"?


The beats that are accented are the pulse. Ussually what you would tap your foot to. It doesn't mean that it is the beat, it's just where the beat is the strongest.
#28
Quote by DaddyTwoFoot
Fair enough, I concede the point. I'm used to thinking of the beat as the pulse, because I can't help but feel like thinking of music in any way other than the pulse is kind of useless.

You're conceding the point even though you were correct?

6/8 has two beats. The emphasized beat, which is the pulse (at least according to NoOne0507's definition) is the first beat.
#29
Pulse =/= Beat
The pulse is just on beats 1 and 4. If the beat was 1 and 4 wouldn't it be counted as 1 2? Besides 6/8 time can also pulse as 1 2 3 4 5 6 or it can be a slow 6/8 where every 8th note is clearly a beat.

Or just go with how you learn to define a time signature:
6 Beats per measure
8th note receives one beat

The 8th is the beat, the strong beats are the pulse and that's why it feels like it is two.
Last edited by NoOne0507 at Oct 10, 2009,
#30
Quote by NoOne0507
No, that is the same as how 2 and 4 are emphasized in 4/4 time. in 6/8 1 and 4 are emphsized. 8th notes are still the beat.

1 and 3 are emphasized in 4/4. 1 is a strong accent and 3 is a weak one.

And the beat in 6/8 is 2 dotted crotchets, not 6 quavers.
#31
Nope. Dotted quaters are the pulse. The beat is the 8ths. Way to acknowledge my last post by the way.

4/4 is either way. It can be 1 and 3 or 2 and 4.
#32
The beat in 6/8 is not eighth notes. The beat is a dotted quarter, the division of the beat is 3 eighths. That's why it's called compound meter.

Honestly, it's not that hard. I'm surprised this has gone on this long.
#33
#34
Quote by NoOne0507


Music Theory in Practice (Grade 3) (yes, that is how basic this is), page 11, Section E, Compound time:

"6/8, meaning two dotted crotchet beats in a bar."

This book is published by The Asscociated Board of the Royal School of Music (UK), making it a much, much more credible and reliable source than any of those websites.
#35
I don't get any of your discussion.

As far as I see it, a 6/8 time signature is a one that can contain 6 eighths in a measure, with an eighth being one beat, or two dotted crotchets if you want as each one of them is like 3 eighths (and basically spans over 3 beats).
#36
A METRE in which each beat is divided into three rather than two (the latter giving SIMPLE TIME). The beat is a dotted note, which cannot be expressed in the denominator of the time signature. The denominator therefore represents the next note-value down, which is one third of a beat.


From the "Compound Time" article in Oxford Music Online. Sorry if I'm going to believe that over Wikipedia. Along with my college professors.
Last edited by timeconsumer09 at Oct 11, 2009,
#37
Quote by UserN123
I don't get any of your discussion.

As far as I see it, a 6/8 time signature is a one that can contain 6 eighths in a measure, with an eighth being one beat, or two dotted crotchets if you want as each one of them is like 3 eighths (and basically spans over 3 beats).

Eights are not the beat in 6/8 time, that's the point.

You've seen the much more reliable sources tell you that there are only two beats in 6/8 time, what part of that don't you get?
#38
But why would anyone use that?
Unless it's the only time signature that gets the dotted crotchets "smoothly", you could just combine them in other time signatures (and anyway - Why would the dotted crotchet get the beat instead of playing it as it is (8th is the beat) but use the dotted cortchets with it?).


Even though that I don't get how well could someone combine this type of note with the regular ones. As the rest are built upon a set amount of change (double or half) that is easy to adapt to, playing an "eighth" and then a "quarter" is easy. Playing a quarter and than something that it 50% longer than it doesn't sound very comfortable.
#39
Quote by 12345abcd3
Music Theory in Practice (Grade 3) (yes, that is how basic this is), page 11, Section E, Compound time:

"6/8, meaning two dotted crotchet beats in a bar."

This book is published by The Asscociated Board of the Royal School of Music (UK), making it a much, much more credible and reliable source than any of those websites.



Fine, I must concede then. Although it doesn't have to be a compound time. I don't write my 6/8's like that.
#40
Quote by UserN123
But why would anyone use that?
Unless it's the only time signature that gets the dotted crotchets "smoothly", you could just combine them in other time signatures (and anyway - Why would the dotted crotchet get the beat instead of playing it as it is (8th is the beat) but use the dotted cortchets with it?).


Even though that I don't get how well could someone combine this type of note with the regular ones. As the rest are built upon a set amount of change (double or half) that is easy to adapt to, playing an "eighth" and then a "quarter" is easy. Playing a quarter and than something that it 50% longer than it doesn't sound very comfortable.

The point of 6/8 (essentially) is that it sounds like triplets without having to notate everything as triplets.

This thread took a nice turn. Makes me feel much better about myself.
Quote by dudetheman
So what? I wasted like 5 minutes watching DaddyTwoFoot's avatar.


Metalheads are the worst thing that ever happened to metal.
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