#1
So I was talking with a friend and somehow economics came up. Started comparing America to China. He was saying alot about how communism isn't that bad because China's doing really well. This isn't a "rip on communism" thread. I just wanted to know ya'lls thoughts on say, China vs America.

He says while they're not as free, they're a helluva lot better off economically, and that China's doing alot to "go green".

Honestly, I don't know much about the topic, so I couldn't pose much of an argument, or agreement. So I'm off to research and, hopefully, enjoy a discussion.

Oh, and I wasn't sure that this belonged in the political thread or not. If it is, move/delete, whatever.
#2
I'm sure most of those who aren't masochists would prefer to live in America.
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#3
Quote by xylophone
He says while they're not as free, they're a helluva lot better off economically, and that China's doing alot to "go green".

I know little of this topic also, but I think the above is completely overlooking the millions in China experiencing desperate poverty. There is such in America, but nowhere near the scale of that in China.

This is an apples and oranges sort of argument IMO. The sizes of the populations, and their standards of living differ greatly.
Last edited by Le_Bunny at Oct 10, 2009,
#4
China isn't communist.

Their power is in cheap labor. Americans are very expensive workers.
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#5
China also has wonderful workers' rights laws.

They have cheapened labour due to population and lack of benefits they have to fulfill. China started to free their markets quite a bit as well, so that also contributes to their "flourish".
And Hong Kong is going green, but the rest of China is not. Their pollution is absolutely horrible and starting to take a detrimental effect upon agriculture. Their only incentive for "going green" would to increase quality of agriculture, probably not for human concern.
Last edited by Z_cup_boy at Oct 10, 2009,
#6
Quote by ExtremeMetalFTW
China isn't communist.

Their power is in cheap labor. Americans are very expensive workers.


Ah? I was always under the impression they were. Maybe I'm just behind the times.

What exactly are they, and what've they been doing to free up their markets?
#7
Quote by Z_cup_boy
China also has wonderful workers' rights laws.

They have cheapened labour due to population and lack of benefits they have to fulfill. China started to free their markets quite a bit as well, so that also contributes to their "flourish".


It is entirely responsible for it. The special economic zones are started the whole transformation.
Last edited by bajeda at Oct 10, 2009,
#8
Quote by xylophone
Ah? I was always under the impression they were. Maybe I'm just behind the times.

What exactly are they, and what've they been doing to free up their markets?


Well they freed their markets slightly since Tianenmen (sp) Square.
#9
Quote by ExtremeMetalFTW
China isn't communist.

Their power is in cheap labor. Americans are very expensive workers.

This & that.

Ah? I was always under the impression they were. Maybe I'm just behind the times.

In a pure, Marxist sense of the word, they never were.
#10
Quote by xylophone
Ah? I was always under the impression they were. Maybe I'm just behind the times.

What exactly are they, and what've they been doing to free up their markets?

They never were, just a massive PR campaign from the Soviets(who also never were communists), the Chinese and the West made it seem like that.


They are a bureaucratic-socialist state with hints of totalitarianism, although their market has become more mixed and the state has loosened the reigns on it.

In 1978, China brought upon "socialism with Chinese characteristics" and began the Economic Reform for the PRC (People's Republic of China).

Slowly but surely, China was stepping away from it's ridiculous quasi-Marxist economy into a more mixed-market approach.

After Tiananmen, these reforms were bolstered by less authoritarianism, and helped China become the economic big-player it is today.
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#11
Their economy is only doing so great right now because people are just starting to get money in their pockets and spend it. In America, every house already has 2 or 3 cars on average. In China they have about 1 (up until a couple years ago I guess) on average. Alot of their economic boost is a combination of the people finally buying cars and things and cheap labor due to no unions or benefits at all.
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#12
Lenninist and Maoist ideologies are still forms of communism. They might differ from the Marxist original, but they share enough tenets to be classified as belonging to the group. Communism differs somewhat in every country, regardless of which ideologue was used as inspiration for the regime. Its just like any other ideology, it won't be applied exactly the same in each place because prevailing circumstances in each locale necessitate different styles of application. Marxism itself was just a theory of economic determinism really; it inspired communism but wasn't an example of it because it was theoretical.
#13
Quote by bajeda
Lenninist and Maoist ideologies are still forms of communism. They might differ from the Marxist original, but they share enough tenets to be classified as belonging to the group. Communism differs somewhat in every country, regardless of which ideologue was used as inspiration for the regime. Its just like any other ideology, it won't be applied exactly the same in each place because prevailing circumstances in each locale necessitate different styles of application. Marxism itself was just a theory of economic determinism really; it inspired communism but wasn't an example of it because it was theoretical.

While Leninism may be argued to be communist, Maoism is not. Maoism was a form of socialism, but his changes were enough to push it out of the communist umbrella.
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#14
china isn't a communist state.

the only reason why china is doing somewhat better than us right now is because our net exports are in the negatives whereas china's is in the positive. a negative net export means a trade deficit, as well as a decrease to the GDP. our GDP, however, is much higher than china's still.

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china is third in the world, but their GDP is still far less than ours.

there is no doubt, however, that china is creeping up to be the number one economy in the world. their imports are high and so is their government expenditure. the only thing that is stopping them is the average income of a chinese citizen which means very small consumption.
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#15
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#16
Quote by paintITblack39
there is no doubt, however, that china is creeping up to be the number one economy in the world. their imports are high and so is their government expenditure. the only thing that is stopping them is the average income of a chinese citizen which means very small consumption.


Its not so much GDP per capita that was stopping them, but rather the high savings rate. Chinese citizens are just starting to spend more domestically to help cover for the decline in US consumption of Chinese goods. The savings rate has been quite high historically, even as prosperity was on the rise.
#17
Communism, in theory, is actually a really great idea. Theres just a wrong and a right way to do it..
#19
I'm pretty sure China has all kinds of designated "capitalist" zones, which are basically all the sweatshops and factory-towns that produce everything we buy, which is where a lot of their money comes from.
#20
Quote by bajeda
Its not so much GDP per capita that was stopping them, but rather the high savings rate. Chinese citizens are just starting to spend more domestically to help cover for the decline in US consumption of Chinese goods. The savings rate has been quite high historically, even as prosperity was on the rise.

domestic savings is still measured under GDP as it counts for investments which economists define as unspent income.
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#22
Quote by xylophone
China's doing alot to "go green".
They'll have to do a helluva lot more. China's air quality is among the worst in the world. Right now, they're very "brown".
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#23
Quote by xylophone
So I was talking with a friend and somehow economics came up. Started comparing America to China. He was saying alot about how communism isn't that bad because China's doing really well. This isn't a "rip on communism" thread. I just wanted to know ya'lls thoughts on say, China vs America.

1. China isn't communist.
2. China's doing really well because of the huge investment both domestically and internationally.
3. Through the 90's Chinas economic growth never dropped below 5%, and until recently in the 00's didn't drop below 10%.
4. The Chinese had very high levels of saving in comparison to the rest of the world. The public debt of the Chinese has been in the positives for quite a while, where-as in most other countries it's been in the negatives. They save a pretty decent portion of their income, and are very reluctant to go into debt.

He says while they're not as free, they're a helluva lot better off economically, and that China's doing alot to "go green".

Depends where in China. There are places with very little economic control, such as Hong Kong (which has been ranked as the most economically free place for God knows how long by the Index of Economic Freedom) and south eastern "free-trade" zones.

Honestly, I don't know much about the topic, so I couldn't pose much of an argument, or agreement. So I'm off to research and, hopefully, enjoy a discussion.

Well for one China hasn't been running up it's national debt in recent years, which the US has done in an economic boom when they should've been having surplus after surplus. Plus theres the whole economic crisis thing, which is affecting China but not adversely.

Quote by paintITblack39
there is no doubt, however, that china is creeping up to be the number one economy in the world. their imports are high and so is their government expenditure. the only thing that is stopping them is the average income of a chinese citizen which means very small consumption.

China and India. Both are massive nations that are industrialising rapidly. Once theyre industrialised average income will rise significantly.

Quote by bajeda
Its not so much GDP per capita that was stopping them, but rather the high savings rate. Chinese citizens are just starting to spend more domestically to help cover for the decline in US consumption of Chinese goods. The savings rate has been quite high historically, even as prosperity was on the rise.

While what you're saying is true, it's hardly been a massive contribution to stopping China. Their economy has grown at no less than 5% per year since the 90's, and no less than 10% per year in the 00's until the economy crisis. What their savings and smaller consumption lacks is made up for with huge levels of foreign investment, and as China's progressed further and further along industrialisation average GDP has risen quite well.

Quote by paintITblack39
domestic savings is still measured under GDP as it counts for investments which economists define as unspent income.

Using the basic 5 sector economic model though you can see that the savings is more than matched by investment. Given the significant level of injections into the Chinese economy via domestic and foreign investment, the level of savings is a good thing because when that investment drops off (as it has now) the people who've saved can then contribute to their economy.
Not only that, but by saving during economic boom and spending their savings during economic recession they're preventing the paradox of thrift and doing exactly what should be done during a recession (spending, and not saving), which they have the capacity to do because of their savings.
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