Poll: Nature/Nurture? Both?
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View poll results: Nature/Nurture? Both?
nature
14 16%
nurture
18 20%
both - depends on the person.
56 64%
Voters: 88.
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#1
Well earlier I was watching a documentary about both sexes and transsexualism. It overwhelmingly supported the nature ideology, whereas I believe nurture is the dominant key towards roles. I believe assimilating yourself towards a certain definition is an artificial concept, and that everyone has personality traits that differ from stereotypes that we ultimately adhere to, (thus allowing variations amongst people and their aptitudes and interests that may or may not agree with their assigned social role as a man or a woman).

For instance, I am both aggressive yet soft and emotional. How can that be explained by nature if I am a female by biology? Yes I am a lesbian but then wouldn't I maintain a more masculine identity? Although testosterone apparently creates more aggression how is it that some straight men are very kind and passive?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYm81S3l0Bg

Here is the documentary.


What does UG think? What do you think about social roles, and this notion we are assigned particular aptitudes based on what sex we are born in?
Last edited by Z_cup_boy at Oct 11, 2009,
#4
It's both.


Alot of things people do are naturally built into their system.

Then people also have the ability to learn and adapt as they please.


So it's both?

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#5
Some of those "assignments" are generally true, some of them are ****ing retarded.


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#8
Nature get's it all going. Evolution has created some of these characteristics. Nurture confirms and forces the roles. Would word it better, but I'm tired.
#9
The Nature vs Nurture debate is inherently flawed. Both contribute. It's like asking which one makes the music, you or the guitar. You both do. You can attempt, however, to discover the nature of the relationship (eg, how much do you contribute and how much does the guitar contribute)
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#11
Both.
You can choose your own role, but you will always do something that the other gender does.
#12
Quote by Ur all $h1t
The Nature vs Nurture debate is inherently flawed. Both contribute. It's like asking which one makes the music, you or the guitar. You both do. You can attempt, however, to discover the nature of the relationship (eg, how much do you contribute and how much does the guitar contribute)


Interesting analogy. I'd like to see if someone who studies sociology and anthropology could contribute. All different cultures have their own ways of enforcing gender roles, and all are different from one another. Yet we are all human and share the same wired brains.
#13
The role of a certain gender in a society is dictated by that society: nurture.
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#14
Quote by skaterskagg1
I'm too tired to think that hard right now.


This.

That entire first post just blew my mind to pieces.
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#15
Quote by Yeti60
The role of a certain gender in a society is dictated by that society: nurture.


But then how about transsexuals who are born one way and disagree with societys' role for them and act as the other role?

I think much of transsexualism is disagreement between your brain and the organ you were born with - but roles certainly play an act in it as well, no?
#16
Quote by Z_cup_boy
Well earlier I was watching a documentary about both sexes and transsexualism. It overwhelmingly supported the nature ideology, whereas I believe nurture is the dominant key towards roles. I believe assimilating yourself towards a certain definition is an artificial concept, and that everyone has personality traits that differ from stereotypes that we ultimately adhere to, (thus allowing variations amongst people and their aptitudes and interests that may or may not agree with their assigned social role as a man or a woman).

For instance, I am both aggressive yet soft and emotional. How can that be explained by nature if I am a female by biology? Yes I am a lesbian but then wouldn't I maintain a more masculine identity? Although testosterone apparently creates more aggression how is it that some straight men are very kind and passive?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYm81S3l0Bg

Here is the documentary.


What does UG think? What do you think about social roles, and this notion we are assigned particular aptitudes based on what sex we are born in?

You make an intersting point, society always places those rules. Once the rules have been broken and we adapt to a new style, we then establish that as a new rule. Before guys only worked, then women started working, and that rule has been established...it's kind of confusing right now becuase I kind of get your point but realize that rules change and they keep changing.


...sorry if I didn't make sense, I'm kind of tired and not thinking straight. Basically my answer is SOCIETY even though that's not the answer choice
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Last edited by reb_49 at Oct 11, 2009,
#17
It really is a tough subject to tackle, but if I could give some further reading to look into, may I suggest the case of David Reimer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer .

Sidenote: The Weakerthans wrote a song based on him/her called "Hymn of the Medical Oddity" that's a great listen.
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#18
It's a little of both but remember nurture IS nature, so this argument is fundamentally flawed.

There have always been gender roles in human nature. They just happen to vary from culture to culture. Hell, in some cultures, the men can watch the kids (I'm pretty sure, anyway).
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#19
Quote by Z_cup_boy
But then how about transsexuals who are born one way and disagree with societys' role for them and act as the other role?

I think much of transsexualism is disagreement between your brain and the organ you were born with - but roles certainly play an act in it as well, no?


Well with transsexuals, often the individual 'chooses' which gender to live as in an attempt to fit in; bending towards societal rules and norms. They still follow a gender role (for the most part). So I still think nurture applies, however maybe in a slightly different way.
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#20
Quote by Yeti60
Well with transsexuals, often the individual 'chooses' which gender to live as in an attempt to fit in; bending towards societal rules and norms. They still follow a gender role (for the most part). So I still think nurture applies, however maybe in a slightly different way.


They don't choose- they disagree with their body and the social concept laid out for them. Hence why they change.

I don't think people would change based on disagreeing with the social concept of their gender alone - validating why I think their organ plays a bigger role in wanting to change. That video said differently though - if anyone wants to watch at least some of it and argue a point, that'd be great.
Last edited by Z_cup_boy at Oct 11, 2009,
#21
Quote by Z_cup_boy
They don't choose- they disagree with their body and the social concept laid out for them. Hence why they change.

But what makes them disagree their body and the social status laid upon them?
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#22
Quote by reb_49
But what makes them disagree their body and the social status laid upon them?


Their organs that they were born with. Like I said I don't think people change based off of social role entirely - its' their bodies that make them want to change.
#23
Quote by Ur all $h1t
The Nature vs Nurture debate is inherently flawed. Both contribute. It's like asking which one makes the music, you or the guitar. You both do. You can attempt, however, to discover the nature of the relationship (eg, how much do you contribute and how much does the guitar contribute)


Yeah this. I'd really struggle to find an answer.

On one hand, you could raise a son and daughter both identically, same toys, same clothing etc, and they would grow up not having stupid gender role ideas in their heads (until they were teenagers and their friends influenced them)

But on the other hand... I have a cousin who is gay, and that is definitely not a nurture thing. She had blonde ringlets and my aunt would put her in cute dresses, so she would cut her hair off and wear boys clothes instead. This was at like age 5, far too young to have it be a nurtured thing.
#24
Quote by Mistress_Ibanez
Yeah this. I'd really struggle to find an answer.

On one hand, you could raise a son and daughter both identically, same toys, same clothing etc, and they would grow up not having stupid gender role ideas in their heads (until they were teenagers and their friends influenced them)

But on the other hand... I have a cousin who is gay, and that is definitely not a nurture thing. She had blonde ringlets and my aunt would put her in cute dresses, so she would cut her hair off and wear boys clothes instead. This was at like age 5, far too young to have it be a nurtured thing.


Homosexuality is certainly not nurture. Your instincts are nature, but the question is are your interests and behaviours part of nature or not.
#25
Both, in a way. It's hard to tell.

Quote by reb_49
But what makes them disagree their body and the social status laid upon them?


You create your own social status.

Quote by Mistress_Ibanez
But on the other hand... I have a cousin who is gay, and that is definitely not a nurture thing. She had blonde ringlets and my aunt would put her in cute dresses, so she would cut her hair off and wear boys clothes instead. This was at like age 5, far too young to have it be a nurtured thing.


Well, I wouldn't rule it out. Maybe she was just rebelling.
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#26
Quote by Z_cup_boy
Homosexuality is certainly not nurture. Your instincts are nature, but the question is are your interests and behaviours part of nature or not.


I think that's probably nature as well, although I've never seen anything fully proving it either way.

haven't there been some twin studies showing twins separated at birth have similar results on personality tests?

on the other hand, the way children are raised obviously has an influence on their adult selves, making more of a nurture arguement...


Gender roles aren't nature though, they are definitely taught.


Quote by Kensai

Well, I wouldn't rule it out. Maybe she was just rebelling.


5 year olds rebel?
#27
Quote by Kensai
Both, in a way. It's hard to tell.


You create your own social status.


Well, I wouldn't rule it out. Maybe she was just rebelling.


Yeah when you are five you still are influenced by your surroundings. Children after all are very observational.
#28
Quote by Mistress_Ibanez
5 year olds rebel?


Well, yeah

Quote by Z_cup_boy
Yeah when you are five you still are influenced by your surroundings. Children after all are very observational.


I wouldn't say very observational but they're not clueless. And some traits might be learned or randomly generated.
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#29
Quote by Z_cup_boy
Well earlier I was watching a documentary about both sexes and transsexualism. It overwhelmingly supported the nature ideology, whereas I believe nurture is the dominant key towards roles. I believe assimilating yourself towards a certain definition is an artificial concept, and that everyone has personality traits that differ from stereotypes that we ultimately adhere to, (thus allowing variations amongst people and their aptitudes and interests that may or may not agree with their assigned social role as a man or a woman).

For instance, I am both aggressive yet soft and emotional. How can that be explained by nature if I am a female by biology? Yes I am a lesbian but then wouldn't I maintain a more masculine identity? Although testosterone apparently creates more aggression how is it that some straight men are very kind and passive?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYm81S3l0Bg

Here is the documentary.


What does UG think? What do you think about social roles, and this notion we are assigned particular aptitudes based on what sex we are born in?


I don't know much about biology, but you must know even less if you think the presence of aggression contradicts the biology of a female. Sexual orientation does not have much to do with masculinity/femininity/gender identification. Many straight men (sexual orientation also has little to do with hormone secretion, I'm pretty sure) are 'very kind and passive' because they have the emotional maturity to control their biological impulses.
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#30
Quote by Kensai
Well, yeah




I see what you've done there with your sig

Anyway I should have said from birth, but she's a few years older than me so i don't remember that far back. She was always keen on the smashing-things toys like trucks rather than the nurturing-things toys like teddies and dolls.
#31
Quote by MHDrunk
I don't know much about biology, but you must know even less if you think the presence of aggression contradicts the biology of a female. Sexual orientation does not have much to do with masculinity/femininity/gender identification. Many straight men (sexual orientation also has little to do with hormone secretion, I'm pretty sure) are 'very kind and passive' because they have the emotional maturity to control their biological impulses.


I never supported the idea of natural gender roles. I was just stating that about the video.
#32
Quote by Mistress_Ibanez
I see what you've done there with your sig

Anyway I should have said from birth, but she's a few years older than me so i don't remember that far back. She was always keen on the smashing-things toys like trucks rather than the nurturing-things toys like teddies and dolls.

Oh yeah, that. Hope you're not as scared these days

I've been a substiute at a daycare center and kids play with everything. It doesn't matter if they're "for boy or girls". I was with my sister when she interviewed my 5-year-old cousin and she told us that the boys at her daycare center play more with barbie-dolls than the girls. And only one kid play with the choo choo train
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#33
Quote by Kensai
Oh yeah, that. Hope you're not as scared these days

I've been a substiute at a daycare center and kids play with everything. It doesn't matter if they're "for boy or girls". I was with my sister when she interviewed my 5-year-old cousin and she told us that the boys at her daycare center play more with barbie-dolls than the girls. And only one kid play with the choo choo train


Interesting. I think the same too - maybe that video was a bunch of bs used to support conservative roles for both sexes


I was more leaning on the nurture side, definately.

So Kensai, you're from a very equal country gender wise. Are there any "roles" pushed towards men and women from your perspective?
Last edited by Z_cup_boy at Oct 12, 2009,
#34
Quote by Kensai
Oh yeah, that. Hope you're not as scared these days

I've been a substiute at a daycare center and kids play with everything. It doesn't matter if they're "for boy or girls". I was with my sister when she interviewed my 5-year-old cousin and she told us that the boys at her daycare center play more with barbie-dolls than the girls. And only one kid play with the choo choo train



You know what? IT WAS SCARY!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmHDvGszdVQ


I'm not really trying to argue on the side of nature, because I think nurture decides a lot, it's just strange in her case, because most people don't have thoughts about things like that until puberty, but she was dressing as a boy throughout her childhood.
#35
Quote by Mistress_Ibanez
You know what? IT WAS SCARY!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmHDvGszdVQ


I'm not really trying to argue on the side of nature, because I think nurture decides a lot, it's just strange in her case, because most people don't have thoughts about things like that until puberty, but she was dressing as a boy throughout her childhood.


I dressed very ambiguously myself, never liked dresses, and I played with stuffed animals, not dolls nor trucks. I ended up gay. I think maybe it is subjective to the person, if anything.
#36
Quote by Z_cup_boy
I never supported the idea of natural gender roles. I was just stating that about the video.


Both genders have separate and distinct instincts. You say that sexual orientation is definitely nature (I'm not particularly inclined to disagree) but you say that gender specific behaviours are not. You can't cite biology as an informant of your reasoning and then pick and choose what you want to agree with and what you want to ignore.
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#37
Quote by Z_cup_boy
I dressed very ambiguously myself, never liked dresses, and I played with stuffed animals, not dolls nor trucks. I ended up gay. I think maybe it is subjective to the person, if anything.



Probably. It's not like I've collected any data on the subject, I'm just making wild sweeping statements

Surely that goes back round to nurture then. You play with the toys your parents buy you...?
#38
Quote by MHDrunk
Both genders have separate and distinct instincts. You say that sexual orientation is definitely nature (I'm not particularly inclined to disagree) but you say that gender specific behaviours are not. You can't cite biology as an informant of your reasoning and then pick and choose what you want to agree with and what you want to ignore.


Explain.

Quote by Mistress_Ibanez
Probably. It's not like I've collected any data on the subject, I'm just making wild sweeping statements

Surely that goes back round to nurture then. You play with the toys your parents buy you...?



some. Not all.

I didn't like trucks, and I didn't like dolls. Actually I was a strange kid - didn't play with toys a lot at all.
Last edited by Z_cup_boy at Oct 12, 2009,
#39
Quote by Z_cup_boy
Interesting. I think the same too - maybe that video was a bunch of bs used to support conservative roles for both sexes


I was more leaning on the nurture side, definately.

So Kensai, you're from a very equal country gender wise. Are there any "roles" pushed towards men and women from your perspective?


I haven't watched the movie so I've no idea.

There's roles pushed on everyone, gender, skincolour, location, job e.t.c.
I think the biggest two are (for females): Being happy with who you are and being this well-oiled super machine. The latter is prominent everywhere.

For males it's pretty much the same. Good thing I already am a well-oiled sexmachine.

Quote by Mistress_Ibanez
You know what? IT WAS SCARY!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmHDvGszdVQ


I'm not really trying to argue on the side of nature, because I think nurture decides a lot, it's just strange in her case, because most people don't have thoughts about things like that until puberty, but she was dressing as a boy throughout her childhood.

What was the most scary part? when the kid spilled the orange juice?

I dressed like a girl once, I didn't have any particular ideas about gender roles. The only thing bothering me was that the clothes were so small (they were my sister's, I lost a bet). Your cousin might've just enjoyed the clothes/were still rebelling/didn't care about following the group's clothing doctrine.
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#40
Quote by Kensai
I haven't watched the movie so I've no idea.

There's roles pushed on everyone, gender, skincolour, location, job e.t.c.
I think the biggest two are (for females): Being happy with who you are and being this well-oiled super machine. The latter is prominent everywhere.

For males it's pretty much the same. Good thing I already am a well-oiled sexmachine.


What was the most scary part? when the kid spilled the orange juice?

I dressed like a girl once, I didn't have any particular ideas about gender roles. The only thing bothering me was that the clothes were so small (they were my sister's, I lost a bet). Your cousin might've just enjoyed the clothes/were still rebelling/didn't care about following the group's clothing doctrine.


So you support nurture more?
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