#1
Hello all,

I'd just like to ask what is decent improvement that I can expect with a ton of practice and exercise with my voice? Is it too much to expect a full octave? I don't mean falsetto (however you spell it), but true and pure notes. I'm a baritone, my range being F#2-G#4 (I can barely touch a B4 if I've been warming up for a long time and really push my voice.)

This is just for informative purposes, as I don't want to get my hopes up now that I've started singing.

KD
Equipment:
-Ibanez GIO
-Fender American Standard Strat HSS
-Acoustic Schneider Guitar
-ARIA STB-PB-DX Bass
-Vox VT50AD-XL
-Roland Cube-30 Bass
-Digitech RP-250
-Blue guitar pick
Proud Member of UG's 80's Rock Fan Club
#2
i'm not a vocalist so i cant be 100% with this stuff, but i hear EricArcaneux on youtube is realllly helpful.
if thats no use sorry for bad post :L
but you never know :P
#3
Based solely on your description and not hearing how well you're hitting the notes you say you are, you are currently sitting at two full octaves and a bit. I wouldn't realistically expect much of an improvement in range at that point, but I would expect a significant improvement in how easily you hit the upper and lower notes, and in the quality of tone and resonance that you hit them with.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#4
Well, the odd thing is, until a while ago, I had just under two octaves. Then I really got into the whole vocal exercises thing and I got over the two octave marker. Maybe it's just the fact that my voice is warmed up, but then again, it can't be entirely impossible to improve in range, as its basically just a muscles that need to move a certain way. Sure I won't get 4 octaves, but some improvement can be possible, right?
Equipment:
-Ibanez GIO
-Fender American Standard Strat HSS
-Acoustic Schneider Guitar
-ARIA STB-PB-DX Bass
-Vox VT50AD-XL
-Roland Cube-30 Bass
-Digitech RP-250
-Blue guitar pick
Proud Member of UG's 80's Rock Fan Club
#5
Well, you won't get three either. Two to two and a half is considered a good range. You might get a a couple of notes or so, but that's it.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#6
Quote by KasanDude
Well, the odd thing is, until a while ago, I had just under two octaves. Then I really got into the whole vocal exercises thing and I got over the two octave marker. Maybe it's just the fact that my voice is warmed up, but then again, it can't be entirely impossible to improve in range, as its basically just a muscles that need to move a certain way. Sure I won't get 4 octaves, but some improvement can be possible, right?


If you want four octaves, you could always check out some SLS stuff. "Raise Your Voice" by Jaime Vanderra is a great book for, well...singing.

DISCLAIMER: I am not guaranteeing you four octaves, but with the adduction technique, your range can get pretty huge. Bigger then you find necessary, at least.
#7
Some FAQ's on range, specifically addressing how much you need, whether or not you can have three, four, or eight octaves, etc.

http://thebelcantotechnique.now-here-this.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=3&id=7&Itemid=30

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#8
I have to agree with Chris on this one. G#4 for a baritone is pretty good. I'm sure with practice, you could nail the A or A# comfortably, but you won't improve your range drastically. A few notes is the most you can hope for.

Now, that's assuming you're already singing with proper technique. If you're currently singing with improper technique, and you switch to a more proper one, you could possibly improve your range even more. My range used to be exactly the same as yours: F#2 - G#4. However, practicing along with improving technique with the help of my voice instructor has improved my range to F2 - C5, so I was able to improve my range by about a half-octave.
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Quote by MuffinMan
Jesus was all like "To those about to rock, I salute you." then he grabbed his mighty axe and rocked the Romans out really hard. Of course they were strict classical music so....
#9
It really, really depends on what you consider "range." There's a pretty considerable amount of disagreement on these forums, and really, amongst singers in general, as to what constitutes range. Should range include falsetto? How do you define what is and isn't falsetto? Are head voice and falsetto the same thing? Do you include head voice into your range? What constitutes head voice?

As far as I am concerned, range is defined by usable notes. That definition is admittedly qualitative, but the way I look at it, if you can hit a note, and it has a pleasing tone quality, and you can produce that note with equally powerful tonal qualities as any other note, it's part of your usable range. If you want to go by that definition, yes, you can absolutely get three octaves or more into your range.
#10
Quote by Chaingarden
It really, really depends on what you consider "range." There's a pretty considerable amount of disagreement on these forums, and really, amongst singers in general, as to what constitutes range. Should range include falsetto? How do you define what is and isn't falsetto? Are head voice and falsetto the same thing? Do you include head voice into your range? What constitutes head voice?

As far as I am concerned, range is defined by usable notes. That definition is admittedly qualitative, but the way I look at it, if you can hit a note, and it has a pleasing tone quality, and you can produce that note with equally powerful tonal qualities as any other note, it's part of your usable range. If you want to go by that definition, yes, you can absolutely get three octaves or more into your range.


I agree completely.
#11
I'm pretty sure you'll find that, among singers who are educated about singing, that the definition of range is not nearly as subjective as you would like to think. It is strictly defined as the notes you can sing well enough to be useful within your natural voice.

No trained singer will tell you that falsetto is conventionally considered part of defining one's range.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#12
Quote by axemanchris
I'm pretty sure you'll find that, among singers who are educated about singing, that the definition of range is not nearly as subjective as you would like to think. It is strictly defined as the notes you can sing well enough to be useful within your natural voice.

No trained singer will tell you that falsetto is conventionally considered part of defining one's range.

CT


That's still quite subjective. What is considered "useful" and what's considered "natural?" I don't think anyone would listen to Chris Cornell or Ripper Owens's very high notes and say "nope, not part of his range." I suppose if you were a classical singer, and you wanted to disqualify that because chest voice isn't the exclusive quality being used, then fine, but speaking frankly, that approach is antiquated and ridiculous. It's wholly irrelevant by today's standards, and honestly, only upheld because of tradition and stubbornness. You might as well say a guitarist can only play as fast as he can fingerpick, because the tonal quality of plectrum use, by classical standards, can't be considered. Call it falsetto or head voice, or whatever you like, but when you're talking about virtually any genre of popular music today, excluding classical music, exclusive use of the chest voice is limited and inefficient. When it comes down to it, Rob Halford has a wider usable range than Brandon Boyd, though they are both tenors, and probably have similar chest voice ranges. The classical singing approach has its place, in classical music, but if you're at all interested in singing pop, rock, country, R&B, or 99% of what you hear on the radio or in a record store, efficiently and convincingly, that approach has gone the way of geocentrism, bloodletting, and the 8-track.
Last edited by Chaingarden at Oct 26, 2009,
#13
Quote by Chaingarden
that approach has gone the way of heliocentrism....

are.... are you telling me that the sun.... it's.... it's NOT the center of existence!?!?!
#14
Quote by z4twenny
are.... are you telling me that the sun.... it's.... it's NOT the center of existence!?!?!


**** no, the sun rotates around the earth you stupid ****
learn some basic astronomy, holy shit.
#16
Quote by Chaingarden
That's still quite subjective. What is considered "useful" and what's considered "natural?"


"Useful" - somewhat subjective perhaps. Yeah, you can sing the note, but how well and how reliably? I can sing a B below the tenor C, but not every day in any context. I can sing it on a good day, depending on how it is used. Otherwise, I'm starting to squawk it out. I wouldn't call that useful, for instance.

"Natural" - not nearly as subjective. Essentially means "not in falsetto or whistle register."

While I agree with your sentiment, the reality is that conventional definitions take years of people challenging them and interpreting them. You're challenging that definition, which is fine. It's not unfounded. But, conventionalism, being what it is, will generally find that most singers will disagree with you.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#17
Quote by axemanchris
"Useful" - somewhat subjective perhaps. Yeah, you can sing the note, but how well and how reliably? I can sing a B below the tenor C, but not every day in any context. I can sing it on a good day, depending on how it is used. Otherwise, I'm starting to squawk it out. I wouldn't call that useful, for instance.

"Natural" - not nearly as subjective. Essentially means "not in falsetto or whistle register."

While I agree with your sentiment, the reality is that conventional definitions take years of people challenging them and interpreting them. You're challenging that definition, which is fine. It's not unfounded. But, conventionalism, being what it is, will generally find that most singers will disagree with you.

CT


I suppose that's fair. As far as I'm concerned, if I can produce notes that sound good in their context, on a consistent basis, it doesn't make a difference to me what people classify them as.
#18
Quote by Cheeseman07
**** no, the sun rotates around the earth you stupid ****
learn some basic astronomy, holy shit.



here, take these batteries. you'll need them since your sarcasm detector seems to be dead.
Last edited by z4twenny at Oct 26, 2009,
#19
Quote by z4twenny


here, take these batteries. you'll need them since your sarcasm detector seems to be dead.


uh... wow
you've uh... oh god

see i was doing the meta-sarcasm and...
=( you ruined the joke
#20
Quote by axemanchris
I'm pretty sure you'll find that, among singers who are educated about singing, that the definition of range is not nearly as subjective as you would like to think. It is strictly defined as the notes you can sing well enough to be useful within your natural voice.

No trained singer will tell you that falsetto is conventionally considered part of defining one's range.

CT

it should though. i never understood that. its still notes you can hit right? i dont see why it shouldnt count.

to the TS, i wouldnt expect anyone to gain a full octave ever. im not really sure if you can really "add" any notes to your range. but you can improve how well you sing them and how full and accurate the notes are. you might be able to add some notes to your falsetto however over time, but as for you natural voice you can really only make it better and not really "add" notes to it. if it seems like you are, you are probably just filling some notes out better or putting more air/power behind them. so again, you just made the notes better, you didnt add them. i think adding notes only can happen to the high and low end of your range.
#21
You can most certainly add notes. If you're not producing the sound correctly, you limit yourself by your own bad technique. For me, personally, before I started lessons, I'd try to sing Rockin in the Free World and could barely squawk out the G in the chorus on "keep on." Now I can hit the Bb above that. There's no WAY I could have reached that note in anything other than falsetto before. (which, even now, my falsetto is awful).

I'm currently teaching two new students (started in the last two months). One has added a perfect fourth onto his range. The other has added a perfect fifth. They were forming their notes so inefficiently that they were limited by their lack of technique. Now that they are starting to get some technique - and some confidence - they're finding notes they never knew they had.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#22
My range has increased over time - it's the same principle as guitar ultimately, the better you get at the activity in greater your comfortable "operating range" becomes...there are songs I can sing that I couldn't sing a year or two ago, not by trying to sing them but simply by focussing on getting better and more accomplished at the things I could sing and being aware of my limits.
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#23
Quote by axemanchris
You can most certainly add notes. If you're not producing the sound correctly, you limit yourself by your own bad technique. For me, personally, before I started lessons, I'd try to sing Rockin in the Free World and could barely squawk out the G in the chorus on "keep on." Now I can hit the Bb above that. There's no WAY I could have reached that note in anything other than falsetto before. (which, even now, my falsetto is awful).

I'm currently teaching two new students (started in the last two months). One has added a perfect fourth onto his range. The other has added a perfect fifth. They were forming their notes so inefficiently that they were limited by their lack of technique. Now that they are starting to get some technique - and some confidence - they're finding notes they never knew they had.

CT

so thats exactly what i said. you didnt really add them, you just made them better. what i have found is that what i thought was my falsetto wasnt actually that at all. i just didnt have enough air behind it. i didnt have the right technique down so it sounded falsetto-ish. but now that ive worked at it ive found where my real falsetto is but even then its hard because ive gotten better at filling those notes out too.

which is another reason why i dont understand why falsetto isnt considered part of your range. if you fill the notes out enough, you can make them sound like they are not falsetto, to a certain degree. once you get to the top of your range it gets harder to do so. imo, if you can hit a note and use it while singing, then i dont see why it cant be part of your range.
#24
Quote by Blind In 1 Ear
so thats exactly what i said. you didnt really add them, you just made them better. what i have found is that what i thought was my falsetto wasnt actually that at all. i just didnt have enough air behind it. i didnt have the right technique down so it sounded falsetto-ish. but now that ive worked at it ive found where my real falsetto is but even then its hard because ive gotten better at filling those notes out too.

which is another reason why i dont understand why falsetto isnt considered part of your range. if you fill the notes out enough, you can make them sound like they are not falsetto, to a certain degree. once you get to the top of your range it gets harder to do so. imo, if you can hit a note and use it while singing, then i dont see why it cant be part of your range.


Really? Are you sure you're not just reinforcing your falsetto?

I guess that makes sense, actually. I've been doing some new exercises (Crescendos, specifically) that allow you to use your falsetto to tap into head voice, and drastically expand your range.
#25
Careful.... I did add them. They were never there before. When before, I had a hell of a time getting the G below tenor C, there was no way in hell I could have gotten the A or Bb without going into falsetto and sounding ridiculous. Now I can.

About the falsetto thing.... it is, IMHO a dated thing rooted squarely in convention over the generations. When a conductor or producer or whoever was looking for a singer, they would look at the music for the various parts. "I need someone who can hit a high C for this, so I need to call a tenor." Sure, some baritone could come out and hit that high C in falsetto, but parts tended to call for people to "really" hit the notes. "Don't give me any of that baritone singing in falsetto crap... give me a tenor who can really hit the note, and do it right."

Because of the physical limitations of the human voice, people tended to write parts for male voices that would not extend beyond the tenor C because practically nobody can actually sing higher than that. (yeah, Mozart wrote a tenor part that called for a high F, but any versions of that I have ever heard have all been falsetto... and can you blame 'em?) Just like any other instrument, any knowledgeable composer/arranger wrote for the natural ranges of the instrument. Since people didn't typically write parts that called for a note above tenor high C, it was generally considered unnecessary for *anyone* to sing in falsetto. You just called someone whose range was able to handle the music.

But dated convention or not.... it is what it is, and that is still the widely-accepted way of defining range. (arguably widely-accepted enough to be nearly universal)

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.