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#1
Hi,
sorry if this has already been answered ppl but the lessons on modes didnt help a great deal, my guitar teacher was showing me the different sounds each mode creates
over the corresponding I IV V chords ie
C ionian He played C,F,G jammed it for a bit too get the feel then
C dorian------
this is where im stuck, working out the I IV V chords to practise over when doing c dorian, i keep thinking ok C dorian so c would be the second note must be chords must start on B(major?) but something doesnt sound right, any help here would be greatly appreciated.

Dyn
#2
The relative Major to C Dorian is B Major, so I'd use the I chord from C Dorian (C min) and the IV and V chords from the relative major - which would be E and F#
#3
Quote by zhilla
The relative Major to C Dorian is B Major, so I'd use the I chord from C Dorian (C min) and the IV and V chords from the relative major - which would be E and F#


You mean Bb major, so it would be Eb and F.

@ TS, that's why it doesnt sound good, it should be Bb instead of B.
Last edited by deHufter at Oct 22, 2009,
#4
right so its a whole step back to Bb major as opposed to half a step to just Bmajor
what governs the intervals?
#5
Quote by Dyn101
right so its a whole step back to Bb major as opposed to half a step to just Bmajor
what governs the intervals?


Modes are based on the major scale: WWHWWWH

C major would then be: C D E F G A B starting from WWHWWWH

C dorian would then be : C D Eb F G A Bb starting from WWHWWWH or WHWWWHW
Last edited by deHufter at Oct 22, 2009,
#6
Quote by Dyn101
right so its a whole step back to Bb major as opposed to half a step to just Bmajor
what governs the intervals?


forget that last question, ill rephrase it
so why is it a whole step back to Bb major is it always a whole step ie would c Phrygian
require I IV V chords of Ab, Db & Eb
I just wanna practise them in some sort of context if you see what i mean.
#7
modes are just the major scale in a different key rotated. like this: http://magicbooktheory.com/modes.htm#steps

so basically, youre starting on C and using the Dorian pattern of steps to create that scale. as for chord progressions, deHufter has the right idea.
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#9
Quote by Dyn101
forget that last question, ill rephrase it
so why is it a whole step back to Bb major is it always a whole step


It's a whole step because the major scale has a whole step between those two notes, like i wrote in my previous post.

Major scale = WWHWWWH
C major = C D E F G A B

If you start the scale on the second note (D) and go back you see a whole tone interval (C > D). However if you go back from the 4th note (F) you see a semitone interval (E > F)

So in case of C dorian = WHWWWHW
C dorian = C D Eb F G A Bb

If you start the scale on the second note (D) and go back you see a whole tone interval (C > D). However if you go back from the 4th note (F) you also see a whole note interval (Eb > F) and as for the 1st note (C) to the 7th (Bb) it's also a whole note. Now the semitone intervals are Eb D (3rd and 2nd) and Bb A (7th and 6th).
Last edited by deHufter at Oct 22, 2009,
#10
i get the scale side of it its just chords (simple as possible) to put into my loop station
so i can widdle the modes for a feel its just working the I IV V chords out giving me some trouble.

BTW Guys thanks for the help!
#11
Quote by Dyn101
i get the scale side of it its just chords (simple as possible) to put into my loop station
so i can widdle the modes for a feel its just working the I IV V chords out giving me some trouble.

BTW Guys thanks for the help!

simple chords according to scales:
ionian: MmmMMmd

rotate for respected modes, add tensions like 7ths to brighten it up
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#12
Quote by Dyn101
then lydian begin on Gmajor?


What do you mean?

The lydian scale can begin on every chord within the lydian scale.
#13
i think i see now im gonna try it out thanx again deHufter and co.
really good answers
#15
Quote by deHufter
You mean Bb major, so it would be Eb and F.

@ TS, that's why it doesnt sound good, it should be Bb instead of B.
D'oh! Yup, sorry - thanks
#16
man this is still abffling me i know the story with how you get each scale its just a set of chords to play them over i choose I IV V chords so say i did
C ionian scale, chords would be C,F,G
C dorian scale, chords would be Ab,Db,Eb
C phrygian scale, chords would be ?

Sorry guys ill get it eventually
#19
One of the easiest ways to get a stable modal progression is to use the root chord of the mode, and the IV and V chords of the relative major scale.

So for Ionian thats easy, as its essentially the same as the Major

So for C Ionian (C D E F G A B) you've got C Maj, F Maj and G Maj

For C Dorian (C D Eb F G A Bb), your relative major scale is Bb Major

So you'd use the root chord of the mode - C min - and the IV and V chords of the relative major - which would be Eb Maj and F Maj

So for C Dorian you've got C min, Eb Maj, F Maj

For C Lydian (C D E F# G A B), you're relative major scale is G Major - your root chord of C Lydian is C Maj, and your IV chord is G Major is C Maj, so you've only got 2 distinct chords - C Maj, and D Maj (the V chord of G Major)

So for C Lydian you've got C Maj and D Maj

Make sense?
Last edited by zhilla at Oct 22, 2009,
#20
Quote by Dyn101
man this is still abffling me i know the story with how you get each scale its just a set of chords to play them over i choose I IV V chords so say i did
C ionian scale, chords would be C,F,G
C dorian scale, chords would be Ab,Db,Eb
C phrygian scale, chords would be ?

Sorry guys ill get it eventually


In C dorian the i = Cm not Bb, the IV and v are F and Gm.

C phrygian = C Db Eb F G Ab Bb so it's a matter of counting what 1, 4 and 5 will be:

Cm, Fm and Gdim.
Last edited by deHufter at Oct 22, 2009,
#21
thanx guys the murky modal waters are becoming clearer
legends.
#22
hang on its always gonna be C F G chords that way though that wasnt the case when my teacher showed me
#23
with dorian he had a c in the bass and did the chords Bb Eb and F
there was no c minor
#24
He was always fretting the c cos that was the note we started on everytime
#25
the notes of C Dorian are : C D Eb F G A Bb C

so the root chord is:
C Eb G = C minor = i
the 4th
F A C = F major = IV
the 5th:
G Bb D = G minor = v

so a first fourth fifth progression in the dorian mode is:
i IV v
in C dorian that makes
Cm F Gm

It's the F major as opposed to F minor as you would have in C Aeolian that gives the dorian (a certain part of) it's feel.
#26
so you harmonize the modes the same way you do with all the other scales to get the chords
#27
Quote by Dyn101
so you harmonize the modes the same way you do with all the other scales to get the chords

to generate the chords yes you do it the same was as for any other mode

what you're talking about - fretting the C and playing Bb Eb F is nothing to do with chord construction in the dorian as far as i can tell?
#28
Quote by Dyn101
hang on its always gonna be C F G chords that way though that wasnt the case when my teacher showed me


Not in C locrian. C locrian = C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb

I IV V would be: Cdim, Fm and Gb.
#29
ITT: People confusing each other about modes. If you don't understand diatonic chords/progressions completely, then you'll never understand modes. And there are more than enough people in this thread that don't understand diatonic chords/progressions. I suggest reading the modes sticky and studying tonal harmony before delving into modes.
#30
Quote by timeconsumer09
And there are more than enough people in this thread that don't understand diatonic chords/progressions.


With all due respect, but i think you're full of shit.
#31
Quote by Dyn101
hang on its always gonna be C F G chords that way though that wasnt the case when my teacher showed me
Because your teacher was probably playing the IV and V chords of the relative Major scale - which you could call the 'parent' scale of the mode, not the 4 and 5 chords of the mode. imo its easier to hear the difference between the modes that way.

If you look at relative modes of C, rather than parallel modes, doing it that way you'd always play Fmaj (IV of C) and Gmaj (V of C), but your root chord would change, and would be C Maj for C Ionian, D min for D Dorian, E min for E Phrygian,...etc

If you're playing parallel modes, which you are atm, you'd always play some kind of C chord as the root chord, but the IV and V chords would change as the relative major is different for each mode

So for C Dorian you would play C min, not Bb Maj, but you'd also play the IV and V chords of the relative major (Bb Major), which are Eb and F
#32
Quote by deHufter
With all due respect, but i think you're full of shit.


If you knew what made a modal progression, you wouldn't be talking about what a I IV V progression is in any mode... I IV V is a major progression. If you take the 1 4 5 chords out of any mode, it's not going to reflect that mode as well as a 1 or 2 chord vamp. Especially locrian. It's very difficult to establish a locrian tonality without just vamping a m7b5 chord.

Also, doing what zhilla is talking about (the i or I in the mode, then the 4 and 5 from the 'parent' scale) wouldn't really work in establishing modal tonality. It would be very similar to playing 'a minor' over an Am F G progression. Sure, the progression starts on Am, but the IV and V are more than enough to suggest C major, just with a deceptive cadence every time you repeat it.

Or in the 'C dorian' example, Cm - Eb - F. It's really just a ii IV V progression/vamp in Bb major and it's going to want to resolve to Bb, not C. Meaning the tonal center is Bb. Meaning you're not playing in 'C' anything.
Last edited by timeconsumer09 at Oct 22, 2009,
#33
Using the root chord of the mode and the IV and V chords of the relative major works well enough for initially understanding modes, and its an easy way of creating a simple chord progression thats more than a single chord vamp to start playing with modes. Which is why I believe thats what TS's teacher is doing.

Once TS has got his head around what modes are and how they work, then he can start coming up with chord progressions/vamps that draw on the flavour tones of the mode and establish a stronger modal tonality. But while you are getting your head around whats going on, its much easier to use simple chords that let you see the similarities and relationships between the modes, as well as the differences.
#34
so stick to a Cmaj/Min depending on the mode for the I chord and use IV and V from the relative scale?
also:
if you knew what made a modal progression, you wouldn't be talking about what a I IV V progression is in any mode...

that was the point of the thread i dont know.

cheers zhilla
#36
timeconsumer09 dont just tell me everythings wrong try n put it right for me thought that was the point of these threads.
#37
Quote by Dyn101
so stick to a Cmaj/Min depending on the mode for the I chord and use IV and V from the relative scale?
yup - thats what I'd do for now. Keep it simple while you get your head - and ears - around it. You can always add more complexity in later
Quote by Dyn101
also:
if you knew what made a modal progression, you wouldn't be talking about what a I IV V progression is in any mode...

that was the point of the thread i dont know.

cheers zhilla
I assume timeconsumer meant that the roman numeral system uses capitals to denote Major chords, and lower case to denote minor chords - so I IV V could infer all Major chords. The way deHufter was using I IV V it was pretty obvious he didn't just mean major chords though, so don't worry about it

Edit: Relative scales

Relative scales contain the same notes, but have different roots.

The root of each mode is a different degree of the relative, or 'parent', major scale.

So if you've got C Major, the relative modes are:

1. C Ionian (basically the same as the major scale)
2. D Dorian
3. E Phrygian
4. F Lydian
5. G Mixolydian
6. A Aeolian (basically the natural minor scale)
7. B Locrian

So if you know what mode you've got, you can basically count back and work out what the root of the relative major would be. But just doing it that way, its easy to mess it up like I did in my first post

So to check take a look at the notes you are using in your mode. Easiest way to see that is using parallel scales - that is, scales that have the same root note.

C Lydian has a #4, so its R 2 3 #4 5 6 7, or C D E F# G A B - which is the same notes as G Major. And looking at relative scales, the 4th note of G Major is C, so that works too.
C Ionian is basically C Major, so its R 2 3 4 5 6 7 , or C D E F G A B
C Mixolydian has a b7 - R 2 3 4 5 6 b7, or C D E F G A Bb (same notes as F Major)
C Dorian has a b7 and a b3 - R 2 b3 4 5 6 b7, or C D Eb F G A Bb
C Aeolian has a b7, b3 and b6
C Phrygian has a b7, b3, b6 and b2
C Locrian has a b7, b3, b6, b2 and b5

Did that make any sense whatsoever?

double-edit - I put the parallel scales in order of #/b scale degrees, rather than the relative order you're probably used to seeing. It makes it easier for me to think of them in that order - so hopefully it didn't confuse things
Last edited by zhilla at Oct 22, 2009,
#38
Quote by timeconsumer09
I IV V is a major progression. If you take the 1 4 5 chords out of any mode, it's not going to reflect that mode as well as a 1 or 2 chord vamp. Especially locrian. It's very difficult to establish a locrian tonality without just vamping a m7b5 chord.


No shit Einstein...I was helping TS to find which chords the IV and V are in modes, he wasnt asking about modal progressions or was he? If he asked me how to get a modal progression i would've written what you just did. That you always feel elevated above the crowd makes you look like a fool. You're always pushing people around, patronizing everyone that doesnt know as much as you your highness.
Get a fricking social antenna man. People in this topic wanted to help TS and the only thing you can do is bash the people that try to help him. Props for being a dbag.
Last edited by deHufter at Oct 22, 2009,
#39
^ and props for rising above it.

Simply put - there are really good threads on modal progressions by darren and in the archives - but it doesn't sound to me like the TS's ready to play modally anyway. I'll link em when I get back from table tennis unless I forget.
#40
cheers dude ill check those out.

cheers for the info to guys appreciated.
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