#1
Hey, i know how to work out each chord in key and whatnot...

Something has just struck me though.

I never really grasped the concept of chord substitutions.

For instance, i know in the key of C you have C Dm Em F G Am Bdim

Now i know you can Maj 7, m7, 9ths 13ths Sus and stuff....

But what i don't get is at what point can i mix and match? Because the C can be Maj7, Maj9 etc, can i just play normal G-Cmaj7 ?

Could i play Gmaj7-C?
Gmaj9-Cmaj7?

Like, for every chord in key can i mix and match and it will still sound right? If i start off on a maj7 i don't have to make all the other chords 7ths do i?

I know this is really nooby and all but i've just never thought about it.

Hope someone gets what i mean hah.
Last edited by Ikonoklast at Oct 22, 2009,
#2
I think the chord variations like sus4 etc are so u can fit chords into different modes and keys...not sure tho

Just play them and if they sound good to ur ear then cool...dont get to hung up on theory coz its very constrictive unless you know everything
#3
I don't have a clue about theory like that but just try it and see if it sounds good, or get someone to play the scale up and down and play different chords over the top? I don't know really
Quote by MightyAl
Could be worse. Though from time to time, I would like to shoot them with rocket-propelled chainsaws.
#4
yes you can "mix & match"....to really understand how this dynamic works...
a study of:

diatonic harmony
triads and their inversions
4 note 7th chords and inversions
voice leading

of course the above is a very intense study...but taken in a systematic way ( a good teacher is recommended) you can have a firm ground work that will meet most any musical challenge..

and yes it will take time and work..depending on your desire and goals in music

play well

wolf
Last edited by wolflen at Oct 22, 2009,
#5
Quote by wolflen
yes you can "mix & match"....to really understand how this dynamic works...
a study of:

diatonic harmony
triads and their inversions
4 note 7th chords and inversions
diatonic harmony
voice leading

of course the above is a very intense study...but taken in a systematic way ( a good teacher is recommended) you can have a firm ground work that will meet most any musical challenge..

and yes it will take time and work..depending on your desire and goals in music

play well

wolf

Ok cheers.

I am really working on getting the basics of theory down. I need to so i can go to uni next year. I just got confused because if you see an important chord (I IV or V) with a maj7 attached to it the other chords in the progression seem to be extended too.

Just wanted to know if you could mix triads with any extension, and whether it would sound good as long as you stick to the chords in key. This seems to have cleared it up so cheers!
#6
As the G chord extends diatonically to G7 (G B D F) in C major, you would usually extend it to dominant 7th extensions such as G9 or G13 rather than Gmaj9 or Gmaj7 (which would incur an F#, which being the b5 in C major could clash against other chords or melodies).

However, it all depends on how you do it - if you make it sound good, then the theory doesn't have to be orthodox.
#7
I don't know that much theory on chords, but i just use extentions with in key notes that aren't already in the chord. Terrible advise i know
#8
Quote by blue_strat
As the G chord extends diatonically to G7 (G B D F) in C major, you would usually extend it to dominant 7th extensions such as G9 or G13 rather than Gmaj9 or Gmaj7 (which would incur an F#, which being the b5 in C major could clash against other chords or melodies).

However, it all depends on how you do it - if you make it sound good, then the theory doesn't have to be orthodox.

So then when you're talking about chords in key - the V of C as far as 7th extended chords go, the the chord would be G7?

So i take it the V7 in every major key will be a dominant 7th?

Is there any chart showing the 7th, 9th etc chords for each key?

So i take it the MmmMMmdim is different if you're talking about extended chords in key?
Last edited by Ikonoklast at Oct 22, 2009,
#9
You know how to harmonise the scale by stacking 3rds to get MmmMMmdim? Just extend that for 7th chords - add the extra 3rd on top. Same again for 9ths.

I tend to use the concept of modes to quickly work out what the chord would be - for example for 9th chords, I know only Phrygian and Locrian have a b2, so the 3rd and 7th chords of the Major scale would also have a b2 - or b9
#10
^Oh yeah i know how to form chords, i'm more thinking about how all the different types of chords blend with each other, because obviously G Maj 7 has an F# which means it's not in the key of C.

I think a chart or something would clear it up for me. I'm currently searching! Thanks for the help though. MT is the only part of UG that's not full of morons/children.
#11
Sorry - I took your last post to mean you hadn't twigged how to form extended chords from a scale. As far as what extensions work with what - I'm as blank as you, so I'm hoping its not such a noobish question lol

Only way I use extensions/suspensions at the moment is to add a kind of (bad) melody to a chord progression - but I suck at it atm
#12
Quote by Ikonoklast
So then when you're talking about chords in key - the V of C as far as 7th extended chords go, the the chord would be G7?

So i take it the V7 in every major key will be a dominant 7th?

Is there any chart showing the 7th, 9th etc chords for each key?

So i take it the MmmMMmdim is different if you're talking about extended chords in key?

C E G = C
D F A = Dm
E G B = Em
F A C = F
G B D = G
A C E = Am
B D F = Bdim

C E G B = Cmaj7
D F A C = Dm7
E G B D = Em7
F A C E = Fmaj7
G B D F = G7
A C E G = Am7
B D F A = Bm7(b5)

C E G B D = Cmaj9
D F A C E = Dm9
E G B D F = Em9
F A C E G = Fmaj9
G B D F A = G9
A C E G B = Am9
B D F A C = Bm9(b5)

C E G B D F = Cmaj11
D F A C E G = Dm11
E G B D F A = Em11
F A C E G B = Fmaj11
G B D F A C = G11
A C E G B D = Am11
B D F A C E = Bm11(b5)

C E G B D F A = Cmaj13
D F A C E G B = Dm13
E G B D F A C = Em13
F A C E G B D = Fmaj13
G B D F A C E = G13
A C E G B D F = Am13
B D F A C E G = Bm13(b5)


Though you can always omit the 9 on an 11 chord; or the 9 and 11 on a 13 chord.
#13
Right so basically anything past a triad for the V chord becomes Dominant?! That's cleared it up, cheers for the chart mate.

Obviously i don't know about where your Sus and 6ths come into it either but i'm sure i've got enough to be working with for now.
Last edited by Ikonoklast at Oct 22, 2009,
#14
Quote by Ikonoklast
Obviously i don't know about where your Sus and 6ths come into it either but i'm sure i've got enough to be working with for now.

Sus and 6th chords are constructed purely from the root, disregarding whatever key you're in.

Csus4 = C F G
Csus2 = C D G
C6 = C E G A
Cm6 = C Eb G A
#16
sus chords are a strange breed as they can be just about anything...for me they are sound chords..(steely dan uses them ALOT)..not major or minor or dominate the three major quality types. but can be all of them..you can put them aside for the time being...they will be easy to understand after you have some harmony study under your fingers

Major 6 chords are..Major chords and function as such...they may substitute for just a Major triad ... adding a nice richness to the chord...or something like C MA7 CMA6 (C E G A)...to offset the tension the CMA7 can imply in some voicings...MA6 can also be used as an Ami7 ( A C E G)..again the study of where and when to use a Major6 chord as a Minor7 chord...and what the implications are in harmony...

play well

wolf
#17
Quote by blue_strat

E G B D F = Em9

B D F A C = Bm9(b5)

E G B D F A = Em11
F A C E G B = Fmaj11

B D F A C E = Bm11(b5)

E G B D F A C = Em13
F A C E G B D = Fmaj13
A C E G B D F = Am13
B D F A C E G = Bm13(b5)

These one's in your list are not right.

Any extension (except the seventh, so a 6 9 11 or 13) is assumed a major or perfect interval from the chord's root.

So Em9 for example is an Em7 with a Major 9th above E which is E G B D F♯
EGBDF is an Em7♭9

Similarly with all the extensions on the E chord after that. You could just drop the 9 for example in the Em11 chord and survive but what you have written (EGBDFA) is Em11♭9.

Similarly,
The Bm9♭5 is a Bm7♭5 with a ♭9 extension.
The Am13 is an Am11 with a ♭13 extension.

To be honest though I'm not even sure the proper way to write those I'm guessing something like Am♭13 or Am11♭13 or Am7♭13?? Or maybe you'd write them as polychords??

What I do know is that Am13 = A C E G B D F♯
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Oct 22, 2009,