#1
Has anyone else noticed while learning pentatonics and diatonic modes
that the Box 2 of A minor pentatonic, that shape reoccurs in Dorian and Phrygian!

|-------------------------5-8---
|--------------------5-8--------
|---------------5-7-------------
|----------5-7------------------
|------5-7----------------------
|-5-8---------------------------

This scale reoccurs when you go into 10th position and 12th position.
But in Dorian it has the minor third F
and in Phrygian it has the perfect fourth B
#3
who plays pentatonics anymore?

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#4
Yeah the major/minor pentatonic scales are derived from the natural major/minor scales so it follows that the modes are going to share the notes to some degree since they are also derived from the same scales.
#5
Quote by SPBY
who plays pentatonics anymore?


People who like to hear an interesting combination of notes?
#8
Quote by CodeMelon
People who like to hear an interesting combination of notes?



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#9
Quote by kevinbeingkevin
Has anyone else noticed while learning pentatonics and diatonic modes
that the Box 2 of A minor pentatonic, that shape reoccurs in Dorian and Phrygian!

|-------------------------5-8---
|--------------------5-8--------
|---------------5-7-------------
|----------5-7------------------
|------5-7----------------------
|-5-8---------------------------

This scale reoccurs when you go into 10th position and 12th position.
But in Dorian it has the minor third F
and in Phrygian it has the perfect fourth B


You should really learn the scales by their construction and not their "patterns". When you understand each scale by what intervals it comprises things like this become obvious and you can relate one to another much more easily.
#11
Quote by SPBY


Are you really suggesting that one of the most useful scales that shows up in practically every genre of music is worth ignoring?
#12
Quote by kevinbeingkevin
Ugh.. I know how the pentatonic scales are constructed.. it was just an observation..


Well you aren't applying it well enough if you think that the "scale boxes" sharing similar shapes is some kind of interesting discovery.
#13
All notes of the A minor pentatonic are in the A Dorian, A Aeolian & A Phrygian modes. The degrees that differ between those modes are the 2nd and 6th, which are excluded from the minor pentatonic scale.

All notes of the C major pentatonic scale are in the C Ionian, C Lydian & C Mixolydian modes. The degrees that differ between the major modes are the 4th & 7th and those are excluded from the major pentatonic.
#14
Quote by CodeMelon
Are you really suggesting that one of the most useful scales that shows up in practically every genre of music is worth ignoring?


i'm saying this scale is incredibly overused by those genre's you're talking about, i don't know the last time i heard a straight pentatonic scale (and liked it). augmented 5th, minor, harmonic minor, major, hungarian minor, all much more interesting.

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#15
Quote by SPBY
i'm saying this scale is incredibly overused by those genre's you're talking about, i don't know the last time i heard a straight pentatonic scale (and liked it). augmented 5th, minor, harmonic minor, major, hungarian minor, all much more interesting.


Its boring in your own narrow minded conception of it but if you could actually hear it outside of a boring rock solo (you probably have many times but you couldn't pick it out) then you would see that it has an incredible range of application.
#16
Quote by CodeMelon
Its boring in your own narrow minded conception of it but if you could actually hear it outside of a boring rock solo (you probably have many times but you couldn't pick it out) then you would see that it has an incredible range of application.


seeing as it's a 5 note scale, its actually incredibly limited as opposed to a 7 or 8 note scale, i listen to everything from blues and jazz to metal (no country or rap).

It's boring to me because, as you said, it's used in almost every genre, and although you can change the sequence of notes you play and the back ground music, you cant keep it different forever (as it's been proven).

Maybe you should listen to some more music or different scales (you probably have but you couldn't pick it out) to see if you can expand your range of musical knowledge beyond the pentatonic scale so you dont have to hype the simplest, most overused scale.

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#17
Quote by SPBY
seeing as it's a 5 note scale, its actually incredibly limited as opposed to a 7 or 8 note scale, i listen to everything from blues and jazz to metal (no country or rap).

It's boring to me because, as you said, it's used in almost every genre, and although you can change the sequence of notes you play and the back ground music, you cant keep it different forever (as it's been proven).

Maybe you should listen to some more music or different scales (you probably have but you couldn't pick it out) to see if you can expand your range of musical knowledge beyond the pentatonic scale so you dont have to hype the simplest, most overused scale.


Lmfao. A single scale is defines nothing, 5 notes can sound in many many different ways when contrasted with differing harmonies. You are a typical smug guitar nerd that doesn't understand music outside of his scale boxes and struts around blathering about this and that when he has barely a grasp of the rudiments of music.
#18
Quote by CodeMelon
Lmfao. A single scale is defines nothing, 5 notes can sound in many many different ways when contrasted with differing harmonies. You are a typical smug guitar nerd that doesn't understand music outside of his scale boxes and struts around blathering about this and that when he has barely a grasp of the rudiments of music.


I dont understand music outside of scale boxes??? that's why im pumping up the scale that is taught to people in boxes, or the "every-note-goes-so-well-together" scale. i'm being trolled aren't I?

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#19
Quote by SPBY
I dont understand music outside of scale boxes??? that's why im pumping up the scale that is taught to people in boxes, or the "every-note-goes-so-well-together" scale. i'm being trolled aren't I?


Lmfao jesus christ

"I know lots about music guys not just scale boxes!"

*literally defines a scale based on how its shape looks on a guitar*

This scale fits so many musical situations! Its useless and boring! *doesn't understand anything*

but I better not argue with a guy that listens to blues jazz AND metal
#20
Quote by CodeMelon
Lmfao jesus christ

"I know lots about music guys not just scale boxes!"

*literally defines a scale based on how its shape looks on a guitar*

This scale fits so many musical situations! Its useless and boring! *doesn't understand anything*

but I better not argue with a guy that listens to blues jazz AND metal


now i know i'm being trolled doesn't understand sarcasm, fighting that the pentatonic scale is the best scale, you certainly got me sir

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Last edited by SPBY at Oct 22, 2009,
#21
Quote by SPBY
now i know i'm being trolled doesn't understand sarcasm, fighting that the pentatonic scale is the best scale, you certainly got me sir


Nice strawman argument
#22
Quote by CodeMelon
Nice strawman argument


Thank you

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#23
Quote by CodeMelon
Well you aren't applying it well enough if you think that the "scale boxes" sharing similar shapes is some kind of interesting discovery.



It's just an observation because not everyone is as advanced of a musician as you are.
Some people might think it's pretty cool that they can move to different positions with it. You don't need to make people feel inadequate because they find these things interesting.
#24
Quote by kevinbeingkevin
It's just an observation because not everyone is as advanced of a musician as you are.
Some people might think it's pretty cool that they can move to different positions with it. You don't need to make people feel inadequate because they find these things interesting.


I'm not trying to make you feel inadequate I'm just saying that if you learned scales by their composition and not boxes you be able to use them a lot better but I forgot we are in the age that if you suggest that someone can improve its taken as an insult
#25
Quote by CodeMelon
I'm not trying to make you feel inadequate I'm just saying that if you learned scales by their composition and not boxes you be able to use them a lot better but I forgot we are in the age that if you suggest that someone can improve its taken as an insult



I know the scales by their composition. But boxes can be useful too.
#26
Quote by kevinbeingkevin
It's just an observation because not everyone is as advanced of a musician as you are.
Some people might think it's pretty cool that they can move to different positions with it. You don't need to make people feel inadequate because they find these things interesting.
It took me ages to twig that the notes omitted from the Maj and min to form the pentatonics meant that they worked for modes too - and I was equally chuffed when I saw the connection Don't let people get to you And it doesn't mean you don't understand the scales - it just means another piece of the puzzle fell into place, so you now understand them a bit better
#27
Quote by kevinbeingkevin
I know the scales by their composition. But boxes can be useful too.


Boxes are only useful if you understand every single degree that you are playing. If you play a box and can't stop on any note and instantly know what note it is in relation to the key it becomes a crutch
Last edited by CodeMelon at Oct 22, 2009,
#28
Quote by SPBY
I dont understand music outside of scale boxes??? that's why im pumping up the scale that is taught to people in boxes, or the "every-note-goes-so-well-together" scale. i'm being trolled aren't I?

Quote by CodeMelon
Lmfao jesus christ

"I know lots about music guys not just scale boxes!"

*literally defines a scale based on how its shape looks on a guitar*

This scale fits so many musical situations! Its useless and boring! *doesn't understand anything*

but I better not argue with a guy that listens to blues jazz AND metal

You are both noobie idiots. Shut up.

The pentatonic is fantastically versatile. That's why it's used so much. It is not any more limiting or open than any other scale. Context is what makes any scale worth listening to, be it the pentatonic minor, the major scale, bebop, whatever.

To the original post, yes, the pentatonic minor scale fits into the Aeolian, Dorian, and Phrygian modes. The pentatonic is essentially a "bare bones" minor scale, containing the most basic flavor notes of minor tonality.

Not to be mean or anything, but since you are only now coming to this realization, I must recommend that you not worry about modes for a while. Chances are, you (like many others) do not understand modes in their "real" context. Very little music is truly modal. You could spend the rest of your life studying the major scale without finding a need to use modes.
Quote by dudetheman
So what? I wasted like 5 minutes watching DaddyTwoFoot's avatar.


Metalheads are the worst thing that ever happened to metal.
#29
Quote by DaddyTwoFoot
You are both noobie idiots. Shut up.

The pentatonic is fantastically versatile. That's why it's used so much. It is not any more limiting or open than any other scale. Context is what makes any scale worth listening to, be it the pentatonic minor, the major scale, bebop, whatever.

To the original post, yes, the pentatonic minor scale fits into the Aeolian, Dorian, and Phrygian modes. The pentatonic is essentially a "bare bones" minor scale, containing the most basic flavor notes of minor tonality.

Not to be mean or anything, but since you are only now coming to this realization, I must recommend that you not worry about modes for a while. Chances are, you (like many others) do not understand modes in their "real" context. Very little music is truly modal. You could spend the rest of your life studying the major scale without finding a need to use modes.


There is no reason to call ME a newb and there is nothing "bare bones" about the pentatonic scale. Its a distinct flavor of its own
Last edited by CodeMelon at Oct 22, 2009,
#30
Quote by kevinbeingkevin
Has anyone else noticed while learning pentatonics and diatonic modes
that the Box 2 of A minor pentatonic, that shape reoccurs in Dorian and Phrygian!

|-------------------------5-8---
|--------------------5-8--------
|---------------5-7-------------
|----------5-7------------------
|------5-7----------------------
|-5-8---------------------------

This scale reoccurs when you go into 10th position and 12th position.
But in Dorian it has the minor third F
and in Phrygian it has the perfect fourth B

Yeah man. I noticed this too but in a slightly different way...

MINOR MODES and MINOR PENTATONIC

Natural Minor Scale (Aeolian Mode)
1 2 ♭3 4 5 ♭6 ♭7

Dorian Mode
1 2 ♭3 4 5 6 ♭7 -The Dorian mode is the same as the natural minor but with a major sixth instead of a minor sixth.

Phrygian Mode
1 ♭2 ♭3 4 5 ♭6 ♭7 -The Phrygian is the same as the natural minor but with a minor second instead of a major second.

The character notes that distinguish the minor modes from each other are the second and sixth scale degrees.

So what happens if we drop these two distinguishing notes and just make a scale with the notes that are common in ALL THREE of these modes? Well we get a scale that is fairly universal and applicable in almost any minor setting...

1 ♭3 4 5 ♭7 - The Minor Pentatonic.


MAJOR MODES and MAJOR PENTATONIC

Major Scale (Ionian Mode)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Lydian Mode
1 2 3 ♯4 5 6 7 -The Lydan mode is the same as the Major scale but with an augmented fourth instead of a perfect fourth.

Mixolydian Mode
1 2 3 4 5 6 ♭7 -The Mixolydian is the same as the Major scale but with a minor seventh instead of a major seventh.

The character notes that distinguish the Major modes then are the fourth and seventh degrees.

So what happens if we drop these two notes and just play the notes that are common in ALL THREE of these modes? Well we are left with the "essence" of the Major sound that will work in any major setting...

1 2 3 5 6 - The Major Pentatonic.

Relationships are everywhere in music.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Oct 22, 2009,
#31
Quote by CodeMelon
There is no reason to call ME a newb and there is nothing "bare bones" about the pentatonic scale. Its a distinct flavor of its own

You are acting like a noob and you obviously missed my point in calling it bare bones. It is bare bones in that it contains only the most basic tones from the minor scale, namely the minor triad, the perfect fourth, and the minor seventh. It doesn't have the second and sixth because they are not necessary to establish a minor tonality. I did not mean bare bones in a pejorative way that diminished the pentatonic scale's usefulness.
Quote by dudetheman
So what? I wasted like 5 minutes watching DaddyTwoFoot's avatar.


Metalheads are the worst thing that ever happened to metal.
#32
Quote by DaddyTwoFoot
You are acting like a noob and you obviously missed my point in calling it bare bones. It is bare bones in that it contains only the most basic tones from the minor scale, namely the minor triad, the perfect fourth, and the minor seventh. It doesn't have the second and sixth because they are not necessary to establish a minor tonality. I did not mean bare bones in a pejorative way that diminished the pentatonic scale's usefulness.


Sure I misunderstood, only because I responded in rage at the fact that you called me a noob.