#1
Ever since I started looking more at this great little circle, I began to see more and more patterns and helpful information I can get from it. For example if you take any note, say C, the next minor going clockwise in the circle is E minor which is G major's relative minor. Well looking at the three notes there, C E G, I noticed that its a Cmaj and that this pattern repeats itself around the circle. The great thing about that is you can look at the circle and denote what chord is the 3rd and 5th degree easily, just by looking at the key. So for C it would be Cmaj, Emin, and Gmaj, which are indeed all in the C major key.

Just a little thing I noticed. Has anyone else noticed any of these neat things about the circle?

Mares
Last edited by Angry-Mares at Oct 27, 2009,
#2
I think this is the reason most people learn the circle of fifths? because it is helpful in these ways
#3
You could also just count:

C(1), Dm(2), Em(3), F(4), G(5), etc. Also, you described the triad of the I chord in the key. C-E-G is just a C major triad... It's just the 1st scale degree, 3rd scale degree, and 5th scale degree... That is how all basic chords are constructed (a combination of major and minor thirds). For aug chords it's two major 3rds and for dim chords it's two minor 3rds, though...

And you just know that the pattern is always I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, viidim for major and i, iidim, III, iv, v, VI, VII for minor... It seems like that is the same thing...

Also, the easiest way to do relative minor is just that it is a minor 3rd down from major. For example: C major->A minor or G major->E minor... On guitar, it's easy because it's just 3 frets down... It's great when improvising solos in relative keys...

Here's a helpful image from wiki, too...

Last edited by wamguy89 at Oct 28, 2009,
#4
cool story bro...

nah, I like discoverinig things like this.. like interval inversions all add up to 9.. i thought that was pretty cool when i noticed it..

and tritones are THE SAME when inverted.. tritones are teh AWESOMEZ!
#6
Quote by Myshadow46_2
fixed


PLAYING A FIVE CHORD AS A MINOR?!?!?! I mean I know it fits in the key that way, but who honestly makes it a minor in their progressions.

Have you ever noticed that the circle of fifths counter clockwise is the circle of fourths?
#7
Quote by NoOne0507
PLAYING A FIVE CHORD AS A MINOR?!?!?! I mean I know it fits in the key that way, but who honestly makes it a minor in their progressions.

Have you ever noticed that the circle of fifths counter clockwise is the circle of fourths?


If you stack thirds to make chords from a scale then the v chord from the minor scale is a minor chord. I'm sure there are plenty of examples of this.

As for it being in fourths counter-clockwise...yeah I noticed.
#9
Quote by Myshadow46_2
If you stack thirds to make chords from a scale then the v chord from the minor scale is a minor chord. I'm sure there are plenty of examples of this.

The musical convention is to always make the dominant chord major. Writing "fixed" makes it seem like V is wrong, whereas in reality it is much more common to have a V than a v. The best way to write it would probably be to just put v/V.
#10
Quote by 12345abcd3
The musical convention is to always make the dominant chord major. Writing "fixed" makes it seem like V is wrong, whereas in reality it is much more common to have a V than a v. The best way to write it would probably be to just put v/V.


Actually v/V notates a completely different chord; a secondary dominant.
His death, which happen'd in his berth,
At forty-odd befell:
They went and told the sexton, and
The sexton toll'd the bell
#12
Quote by NoOne0507
PLAYING A FIVE CHORD AS A MINOR?!?!?! I mean I know it fits in the key that way, but who honestly makes it a minor in their progressions.


Are you serious? There are endless examples of having a minor v chord in major and minor keys. In a minor key, you would almost never have a major V chord... For example, Em and Bm... There are plenty of songs in Eminor that have Bminor chords in them...

Also, excuse me for my egregious error!! I edited it to fix it, too... Thanks.
#13
Quote by wamguy89
Are you serious? There are endless examples of having a minor v chord in major and minor keys. In a minor key, you would almost never have a major V chord... For example, Em and Bm... There are plenty of songs in Eminor that have Bminor chords in them...

Also, excuse me for my egregious error!! I edited it to fix it, too... Thanks.


In minor keys the v is almost always changed to a V.
#14
I realized not so long ago that modes can apply to the circle of fifths say if you use locrian. B locrian scale has no flats and sharps so the next one is F# I think but you get my idea so I found that pretty neat how I can use the circle of fifths for modes.
#15
Quote by Guitarfreak777
In minor keys the v is almost always changed to a V.


In classical music, as a cadence it almost always is.

In plenty of other genres it isn't, and it almost never is unless its in a cadence.
#16
Quote by Myshadow46_2
Quote by wamguy89


And you just know that the pattern is always I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, viidim for major and i, iidim, ♭III, iv, v, ♭VI, ♭VII for minor... It seems like that is the same thing...
fixed
fixed
Si
#17
Quote by Guitarfreak777
In minor keys the v is almost always changed to a V.


I would definitely not say that it is "almost always" changed to a V... As someone stated, it is often changed in cadences in classical music...
#18
Not just in classical music. In rock, pop, classical, jazz, blues, whatever. You name a style and if it's in a minor key and there is a functioning dominant it is often a major chord.

Sometimes the V chord doesn't function as a dominant chord and in those cases you will often see it as a minor chord.

Of course there are no rules in music except those of nomenclature. Such as VI and VII denotes a major chord built from a maj6 and maj7 root respectively. The only diatonic mode to have either a VI or a VII is the Locrian mode with a VI chord.

From time to time you might be in a minor key such as Am and throw in an F♯ chord. Well all of a sudden you have a real VI chord in your minor key and if you call all your F chords VI then what are you going to call your F♯chord?

In any key you might use out of key chords so you need to be able to notate a specific chord from the root. Also the key might be ambiguous as to whether it is major or minor.

The roman numeral should indicate the root of the chord as a specific interval from the root of the tonic. So in the if the root of your tonic is A (regardless of whether it is minor or major) then the roman numeral should indicate a specific interval. VI indicates a major sixth interval; ♭VI indicates a minor sixth; ♯VI indicates an augmented sixth etc.
The upper or lowercase writing indicates a major or minor chord quality.

Follow?

ANYWAY my little rant over,

Let's do a little experiment. Name a popular contemporary song in a minor key any genre and let's check it out. I'll start...
Rolling Stones - Paint it Black - in Em uses B major
Led Zeppelin - Babe I'm Gonna Leave You - in Am uses E major
Led Zeppelin - Stairway to Heaven - in Am uses Em.
Pink Floyd - Comfortably Numb - verse in Bm there's no V or v chord.
The Beatles - Eleanor Rigby - in Em - again no dominant chord it's all about the ♭VI.
Metallica - Nothing Else Matters - in Em uses B7 beautifully as a dominant to tonicize the Em
Guns'n'Roses - Don't Cry in A♭m - no V or v chord
Bob Dylan (or The Animals) - House of the Rising Sun - in Am uses Emajor

Anyway those are the first 8 songs that popped into my head in a minor key.

4 of them use a Major V chord
3 of them don't use any kind of V or v chord
1 of them uses a minor v chord.

I'm sure you could track a bunch down that use either one or the other but I just picked the first 8 songs I could think of in a minor key.

Wait - what does this have to do with the circle of fifths - I think I'm lost.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Oct 29, 2009,
#19
Quote by 20Tigers
fixed


yes true!

Quote by 12345abcd3
The musical convention is to always make the dominant chord major. Writing "fixed" makes it seem like V is wrong, whereas in reality it is much more common to have a V than a v.


In context it is wrong, the chords made made from the minor scale have the v. Yes a convention is to make the v a V, but that is a scope outside of what I deemed necessary when making the changes. If you remove the context and look at music as a whole, then no it isn't wrong.
#20
Quote by 20Tigers
fixed

Again, saying fixed implies that it was wrong and saying that the chords in a minor key are i iidim III ... VII isn't wrong.

Putting the flats in front is also correct and is done, but leaving the flats out does not make it wrong.

Quote by Myshadow46_2
In context it is wrong, the chords made made from the minor scale have the v. Yes a convention is to make the v a V, but that is a scope outside of what I deemed necessary when making the changes. If you remove the context and look at music as a whole, then no it isn't wrong.

I suppose if you are strictly speaking about the chords formed from the natural minor scale then it is a v, but that wasn't made clear so saying V is wrong, especially as it is almost always V is classical music (this is classical notation), is unjustified.
#21
Quote by 20Tigers
The only diatonic mode to have either a VI or a VII is the Locrian mode with a VI chord.


Doesn't locrian have a ♭VI?

Quote by 12345abcd3
The musical convention is to always make the dominant chord major. Writing "fixed" makes it seem like V is wrong, whereas in reality it is much more common to have a V than a v. The best way to write it would probably be to just put v or V.


If you want to do that then you should do:

i, ii° or ii, ♭III or ♭III+, iv or IV, v or V, ♭VI or vi°, ♭VII or vii°

It seems kind of ridiculous to list all the triads possible between the three commonly used minor scales, rather than write the diatonic minor v.
#22
Quote by isaac_bandits

If you want to do that then you should do:

i, ii° or ii, ♭III or ♭III+, iv or IV, v or V, ♭VI or vi°, ♭VII or vii°

It seems kind of ridiculous to list all the triads possible between the three commonly used minor scales, rather than write the diatonic minor v.

My point was that changing V to v and writing "fixed" implies V is wrong, which it is not and that if you want to make the point that there could be a v then you should write v or V.
#23
Quote by 12345abcd3
My point was that changing V to v and writing "fixed" implies V is wrong, which it is not and that if you want to make the point that there could be a v then you should write v or V.


V is wrong if you're talking diatonically occurring chords. V is the one that's borrowed, so it should be the one included in a footnote or whatever...
#24
tis the key to immortality. im actually 300 years old, but i keep looking into that circle with all of its key signatures and...and...and i get a boner
"Art is the proper task of man" - Friedrich Nietzsche

There is no god, there is only The Doors...Opeth...and IWABO (the unholy trinity)

#25
Quote by isaac_bandits
V is wrong if you're talking diatonically occurring chords. V is the one that's borrowed, so it should be the one included in a footnote or whatever...

But it never stated they were diatonically occuring chords in the first place.
#26
Quote by 12345abcd3
But it never stated they were diatonically occuring chords in the first place.


If it's relevant to the circle of fifths it would have to be diatonic.
#27
Quote by isaac_bandits
Doesn't locrian have a ♭VI?

yes it does - my bad. None of the diatonic modes have a major chord built off a maj6 or maj7 root note.

Quote by 12345abcd3
Again, saying fixed implies that it was wrong and saying that the chords in a minor key are i iidim III ... VII isn't wrong.

Putting the flats in front is also correct and is done, but leaving the flats out does not make it wrong.
Leaving them out is lazy. How hard is it to put them in.

There was a thread a week or so ago asking someone to help them analyze a progression they had in Am

Am Em Bm F♯

the root movement here follows a circle of fifths and is not diatonic so you get out of key chords which is common with these type of progressions that are based on root movement patterns rather than adhering to diatonic selection. So if the chords of Am are i iidim III iv v VI VII then what are you going to call that F♯?

Now what say we add a few chords to this progression making it a little trickier like a nice Dm D A cadence. The chord progression still works but it's making you guess - is it in minor or major? - It's in a little of both but how do you express that in roman numerals?

Easy i v ii VI IV iv I

The thing is both ways can't be "right". VI either represents a major chord built on a major sixth interval from the tonic's root or it represents a major chord built on a minor sixth interval from the tonic's root.

Every theory book I've seen has the ♭s written in, apart from one - The Guitar Handbook by Ralph Denyer. But then that book uses upper case roman numerals to denote any chord quality including dim chords and seventh chords. They way that book writes it a Bm7♭5 is VII in C major and a II chord in Am. That book also describes C♯major as consisting of the notes C♯F G♯ instead of C♯E♯G♯. All the other

Leaving the ♭s off is just laziness as it is usually ♭ in most simple diatonic progressions, so falsely assumed by those who deal mostly with simple diatonic progressions to always be the case and they come to think of the ♭ part of the notation as redundant so it's dropped. That laziness is then passed on as the right way making it quite a common practice. The problems come about when you get a progression that is unusual using non diatonic roots.


After all in a major key you don't borrow a VI from the minor key you borrow a ♭VI, because a minor key has a ♭VI not a VI.

♭VI and VI mean two different things. How hard is it to put the ♭'s in when necessary and remove all doubt as to exactly what is going on?

I know it's a common error that's been passed on and taught to some students who then think it's right but that doesn't make it so. I also know I'm not going to change everyone's mind who does it that way but I'll continue to use ♭'s and will continue to "fix" the odd progression from time to time, though, usually without the rant.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Oct 29, 2009,
#28
People are really making the V vs. v argument more complex then it has to be. It really comes down to what the v (V) chord is doing. If it is going to the i then it is almost always a V, simply because of the leading tone. If it is moving to another chord within the key other than the i, it typically sticks to the key signature.

All this said, if we are going strictly by the key signature of a song, then it should be a v chord and not a V chord. There just isn't a G# in A minor folks.
#29
Quote by BlueTele1983
People are really making the V vs. v argument more complex then it has to be. It really comes down to what the v (V) chord is doing. If it is going to the i then it is almost always a V, simply because of the leading tone. If it is moving to another chord within the key other than the i, it typically sticks to the key signature.

All this said, if we are going strictly by the key signature of a song, then it should be a v chord and not a V chord. There just isn't a G# in A minor folks.


I use a v - i cadence all the time. It generally is a more subtle sounding cadence, which I'm usually going for.

Quote by 20Tigers
So if the chords of Am are i iidim III iv v VI VII then what are you going to call that F♯?



I imagine he'd've called it ♯VI, which to me would seem like an FX chord, or more likely than not, a misnamed ♭VI. I guess the only unambigious way of naming it other than your name would be to use VI to denote the F, and ♮VI to denote the F♯.