Page 2 of 4
#41
@axeman chris here is the proof about BJ armstrong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRiIXJioilI this is a damn hard song for a baritone, the last chorus especially, anyway at 3:16 he screams a full B4, I think it's just a scream, he does a lot of that anyway, but his voice always remains intact, at the end of this video he sings a full voice A4 at 4.33 when he says EEEEOOOOO

here's a a we're the champion cover, an half step down compared to the original but he sings a pretty good full A4 during the chorus (mercury's version would sing a B flat)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPwNRCUoHXA

here at 1:00 you can here his screaming singing, he sings the first part of highway to hell half step down compared to the original , but yet the central note is a G#4 and the highest a B4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFTk8C2Fd90

in all these clips above he sounds nothing like a baritone, maybe you cover his discography till warning, cause in the new album you really need a damn good agility from the range which goes from a F4 to a A4, tell me what you think.
Last edited by kevinmask at Jan 11, 2010,
#42
Quote by axemanchris
It sort of falls into that no-man's land between baritone and bass. Generally speaking, a baritone is not asked to sing below the G, so if a part called for an E2, it would be a bass who would be asked to sing it.

that would expain a lot for me actually. in the range thread, i was told im a bass because of the E2. when i looked up vocal ranges, they tend to show bass STARTING at E2. but i always thought they would go lower than that. i can hit a Eb and a D below E2 on a good day. but i would probably never actually use them in a song.


This is all true. I'm instantly suspicious of anyone who claims to have a three octave range. Pretty much invariably, they are including falsetto when they say this. I mean, really..... a person can sing the lowest E string on the guitar all the way up to the top E at the 12th fret all in full voice? Yeah, right. Whatever. In fact, Bruce Dickenson sings a D above tenor C in the chorus of run to the hills, but when he gets the G at the end, he needs to go into falsetto. He has an exceptionally high voice. I'm curious if you can name an example of someone who can sing, say, the E above tenor C in full voice. AFAIK, I have yet to hear it.

that would actually be 4 octaves. 3 would be low E, second fret D string, and high e string. 12th fret high e would be a 4th octave and probably would be sung falsetto. the highest note ive tried was the high falstto part in "i was made to love her" by stevie wonder, in the little break down part. i cant remember but i think its an F, i might be wrong.
#43
Quote by Blind In 1 Ear
that would actually be 4 octaves. 3 would be low E, second fret D string, and high e string. 12th fret high e would be a 4th octave and probably would be sung falsetto. the highest note ive tried was the high falstto part in "i was made to love her" by stevie wonder, in the little break down part. i cant remember but i think its an F, i might be wrong.


That's two octaves. The first is from E2 to E3. The second is from E3 to E4. The third would be from E4 to E5. That is how octaves are measured when referring to range. You have to be able to sing the full octave, not just the lowest note.
#44
Quote by kevinmask
@axeman chris here is the proof about BJ armstrong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRiIXJioilI this is a damn hard song for a baritone, the last chorus especially, anyway at 3:16 he screams a full B4, I think it's just a scream, he does a lot of that anyway, but his voice always remains intact, at the end of this video he sings a full voice A4 at 4.33 when he says EEEEOOOOO


Okay, where he yells "hallelujia" - yes, it is a B, but his voice breaks up into a rattly holler so it doesn't count. But, indeed, that last note at the end is an A.

Thus I don't doubt that he would sing an A elsewhere either.

Quote by kevinmask

in all these clips above he sounds nothing like a baritone, maybe you cover his discography till warning, cause in the new album you really need a damn good agility from the range which goes from a F4 to a A4, tell me what you think.


We have stuff from Dookie to 21st Century Breakdown (Know Your Enemy, East Jesus Nowhere). Yes, he is good from the F4 to the A4, but needs to scream and break up his voice to get anything beyond, which makes him a baritone.

I'm not suggesting for a moment he's not a decent singer, but I have yet to hear proof he can even come close to the tenor C, so he's not a tenor. Add to that the fact that *most* of his singing is in a comfortable baritone range, and it's pretty indisputable that he is not a tenor.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#45
Quote by axemanchris
Okay, where he yells "hallelujia" - yes, it is a B, but his voice breaks up into a rattly holler so it doesn't count. But, indeed, that last note at the end is an A.

Thus I don't doubt that he would sing an A elsewhere either.



We have stuff from Dookie to 21st Century Breakdown (Know Your Enemy, East Jesus Nowhere). Yes, he is good from the F4 to the A4, but needs to scream and break up his voice to get anything beyond, which makes him a baritone.

I'm not suggesting for a moment he's not a decent singer, but I have yet to hear proof he can even come close to the tenor C, so he's not a tenor. Add to that the fact that *most* of his singing is in a comfortable baritone range, and it's pretty indisputable that he is not a tenor.

CT


yeah but the broken up voice is not easy to do either, if I screamed I wouldn't go beyond a G4 just the same, yeah you might say that he's a better singer than me, and you'd be right, but I don't think I'll ever be able to scream those notes, no matter what I do(classes, practising etc) all what'd happen is me scorching my throat with a crappy G4 anda damaging my cords permanently, so I think it's in his anatomy, nobody would teach you to scream like that, and yet the A4 is a note that I don't have, neither sung nor screamed, so what am I? a bass? don't think so, I just happened to be a 2 octaves baritone, I never heard billie joe going lower than a B2, so if he's a real baritone he has at least 2 octaves and a half singable without counting the screamed notes, but I'm more in the opinion that he's a low tenor (which is not the same as the high baritone)

interesting the thing you said that most of his repertoire is in a comfortable baritone range, but I'd like to list a couple of exceptions

if you hear the first album smoothed out slappy hours it's all very highish, and he sounds like a tenor cause his timbre is very bright, well he was 17 back then and live he always played those songs half step down so his tessitura might have backed up a little.

jesus of suburbia, holiday, 21st century breakdown, american eulogy, before the lobotomy, static age (the one above), and even east jesus nowhere are not in a confortable baritonal range cause the top end of the baritone is persistently milked in those songs, and I personally can't sing them fully in a live.

yeah from kerkplunk to warning songs are pretty much baritonal and can be sung by anyone I guess, but from american idiot to 21st century breakdown his songs got highish compared to the past
Last edited by kevinmask at Jan 11, 2010,
#46
Quote by isaac_bandits
That's two octaves. The first is from E2 to E3. The second is from E3 to E4. The third would be from E4 to E5. That is how octaves are measured when referring to range. You have to be able to sing the full octave, not just the lowest note.

right, sorry. i was just thinking in terms of the notes. so i guess i wouldnt have a 3 octave range but more like 2 and some. going into the 3rd octave is more falsetto. i can fill it out though but i think im almost belting when i do so i dont hink that counts in my range. there are songs i can sing in 3 different octaves though so i guess i got a little confused
#47
Quote by kevinmask
yeah but the broken up voice is not easy to do either,


... except it is what typically happens when you try to sing a note that you can't actually reach to sing.

Quote by kevinmask

and yet the A4 is a note that I don't have, neither sung nor screamed, so what am I? a bass? don't think so,


From your description here, you would certainly not be a bass. A bass tops out around middle C or so. A tenor tops out on the C an octave above that. A baritone typically tops out around the G in between. So, from your description of your upper range, you would be a baritone, like 80% of the rest of us.

Quote by kevinmask

I just happened to be a 2 octaves baritone,


No prob there. That's pretty much me too. Two octaves and a bit. Great.

Quote by kevinmask

I never heard billie joe going lower than a B2, so if he's a real baritone he has at least 2 octaves and a half singable without counting the screamed notes,


B2.... that's fifth string second fret. Assuming he can sing a little lower than that, but like most of us, knows that your lowest usable note still isn't very good, then he can probably sing the open A string. He can sing the A above middle C without breaking up. That means that he has a two octave range and lies almost exactly in the textbook baritone range. (which is G to G)

Quote by kevinmask

but I'm more in the opinion that he's a low tenor (which is not the same as the high baritone),


That would really be taking a lot of liberty with the use of the word 'tenor.' Sometimes a baritone with a range up to an A or Bb or so is called a "choral tenor" (as choral music doesn't tend to place the same demands on singers as an operatic aria, for instance, you don't nearly as often have to nail that high C). They are also sometimes called "pop tenors." But in the truest sense of the word, unless you can at least hit the B natural, calling yourself a tenor is really pushing it. The A is closer to the typical baritone range - much closer - than it is to a tenor.

Quote by kevinmask

interesting the thing you said that most of his repertoire is in a comfortable baritone range, but I'd like to list a couple of exceptions

if you hear the first album smoothed out slappy hours it's all very highish, and he sounds like a tenor cause his timbre is very bright, well he was 17 back then and live he always played those songs half step down so his tessitura might have backed up a little.


Okay, I'll fess up here and suggest you're probably a bigger GD fan than I am. I don't think I've heard anything prior to Dookie.

Quote by kevinmask

jesus of suburbia, holiday, 21st century breakdown, american eulogy, before the lobotomy, static age (the one above), and even east jesus nowhere are not in a confortable baritonal range .


I've sang Jesus of Suburbia and East Jesus Nowhere. Neither of them cause me any strain or difficulty. The others I'm not familiar enough to say, but based on the premise that, so far, we have no evidence of him *singing* anything higher than an A, it is fairer to say that he is a high baritone much more so than any breed of "proper" tenor.

Quote by kevinmask

cause the top end of the baritone is persistently milked in those songs, and I personally can't sing them fully in a live.


So it sounds like you top out around the G or the G#. If the *very odd* time, the song involves an A, then it is only the very odd time that any GD should cause you any difficulty.

The possible exception to that is if you are not producing your voice correctly and you have to strain to get the G/G#, in which case, those notes might not be reliable either. It sounds like you're a baritone, but you find the *odd* note just out of your range. I wouldn't sweat that.

But when I think tenor, I think the likes of Bruce Dickenson, Brad Delp, Freddie Mercury, etc. Those guys whose voices very few singers can reach. As I say, in the chorus of Run to the Hills, where Dickenson sings "run for your li-i-ife," he goes up and hits a solid tenor C, and even just for a smidge kisses the D above that. Holy crap. Those are high notes for a man. Mind you, most tenors can't get that D. It almost seems that it is a physical limitation of the male voice that, as soon as you get to that tenor C, there are very, very, very few who can actually exceed it in full voice.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#48
lol Chris you mention that Iron Maiden chorus in almost every post

I'm still gonna say the high C isn't quite as rare for a trained singer in full voice as you make it out to be, but our definitions of falsetto and "full" voice are probably so different we're not gonna be on the same page.
I've always wondered though, if classical terminology says that you can blend your chest/head register with falsetto how can you tell when a note is falsetto and when it's not? especially on something like a smooth vocal slide going through that A/Bb/B passagio for a tenor
course I might be mis-interpreting what you've said before about this issue or confusing it with something else I read, sorry if that's the case

BTW correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Freddie more of a high baritone/low tenor? He had some crazy low notes as well as those high C and above belted notes he was known for. I think he went down to a low F on a couple of songs, course it sounded very weak below the low G/A
#49
@axemanchris: I have a green day tribute too as a singer, so that makes myself pretty much a fan, anyway, I'll give you more details about my range and voice:

My full range is E2-G4 (I can't really say I hit the G#4 cause it happens rarely and when it does it's not kept for longer than 1 second) when my voice gets warmed up well enough I lose a little bit of my lower range so the E2 becomes more of an F flat, and the lower note which begins to have a good body is the G2, as for my upper range once I get warmed up I can hit a good E4, beyond the E4 everything starts to feel heavy, I can hit a good G4 yes, but if a song always goes around notes like F4, F#4 and G4 (like jesus of suburbia does) I get tired and feel fatigue so I have no choice but stop cause my throat shrinks and gets strangled, and you can imagine the result, I sound like a slaughtered chicken, so I don't know what I should do, teachers always suggested me avoid milking my top end in full songs cause I'm not a tenor, and a baritone lacks of a agility in the E4-G4 range, so what can I say? if you have any tips.... (I quit taking classes cause they weren't so much of a help)


... except it is what typically happens when you try to sing a note that you can't actually reach to sing.


never happens to me as I said, he sounds raspy but never forced, he still has a great voice and hits those notes just fine, if I tried to scream so high I would just ruin my voice and the result would be breaking into a girly falsetto, but yet the last decent note is a G4 even screaming. I was always told that I'm a high baritone but at this point, if your assuming is right, I'm a plain baritone and billie is the real high baritone, his A4 is very good and to me he can go further keeping the same cleanliness, I'm in the opinion that he screams those notes for stylistic issues, not because he can't, that's my humble opinion but I guess if the A4 was his last note he'd really sound forced and raspy already, but it doesn't, it's very full and clean.

So it sounds like you top out around the G or the G#. If the *very odd* time, the song involves an A, then it is only the very odd time that any GD should cause you any difficulty.
90% of GD songs don't cause me any difficult, but the songs I listed in my previous post cause me a lot of trouble so I've decided to keep the dookie tuning (half step down) even in songs normally played in standard tuning, hence I can sing the 99% of their songs with no effort, yet the song "static age" is freaking hard even half step down cause in the last chorus he keeps hitting a G4 over and over, at that point my throat shrinks and closes up.
I'd be happy if I could develop a good agility from E4 to G4, in that case I could cover many of the songs I like, that'd be enough for now, but it still feels hard and I don't know what to do in order to get over this obstacle, the A4 is a very far good candy unfortunately, but I always thought that the A4 as the toppest high end is what you need for a good agility within the G4, and that's what probably BJ has, he hits the A4 rarely but owning that note would cause him to sing up to the G4 G#4 at will and effortless
#50
Quote by Cheeseman07
lol Chris you mention that Iron Maiden chorus in almost every post

I'm still gonna say the high C isn't quite as rare for a trained singer in full voice as you make it out to be, but our definitions of falsetto and "full" voice are probably so different we're not gonna be on the same page.
I've always wondered though, if classical terminology says that you can blend your chest/head register with falsetto how can you tell when a note is falsetto and when it's not? especially on something like a smooth vocal slide going through that A/Bb/B passagio for a tenor
course I might be mis-interpreting what you've said before about this issue or confusing it with something else I read, sorry if that's the case

BTW correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Freddie more of a high baritone/low tenor? He had some crazy low notes as well as those high C and above belted notes he was known for. I think he went down to a low F on a couple of songs, course it sounded very weak below the low G/A

freddie mercury covered the tenor register and the countertenor (close to the Alto female register) he could hit a few baritonal notes but didn't have so much sustain, so he was no baritone, nor low tenor
#51
Quote by Cheeseman07
lol Chris you mention that Iron Maiden chorus in almost every post...I'm still gonna say the high C isn't quite as rare for a trained singer in full voice as you make it out to be,


Yeah, I do. But it's an example that everybody pretty much knows, and a high tenor C in full voice is rare enough that people need an example of how to distinguish that from someone hitting it in falsetto.

Quote by Cheeseman07
but our definitions of falsetto and "full" voice are probably so different we're not gonna be on the same page.


That may well be the case.

Quote by Cheeseman07

I've always wondered though, if classical terminology says that you can blend your chest/head register with falsetto how can you tell when a note is falsetto and when it's not? especially on something like a smooth vocal slide going through that A/Bb/B passagio for a tenor


To me, if it sounds falsetto, it IS falsetto. Listen to Iron Maiden. That's full, rich, and powerful. The richness of tone is there, whereas in falsetto, it lacks those overtones. YouTube Pavarotti and high C or something. Again, the power, fullness, and richness are there. You can hear it.

Now, if you're listening to Run to the Hills anyways.... keep listening. The very last note of the song where he sings "life" on the G above the tenor C is falsetto. You can hear the difference in richness of tone. Suddenly, it just lacks that robustness and has become very thin. It's still powerful, but just lacks that robustness of tone.

Quote by Cheeseman07

BTW correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Freddie more of a high baritone/low tenor? He had some crazy low notes as well as those high C and above belted notes he was known for. I think he went down to a low F on a couple of songs, course it sounded very weak below the low G/A


Quite honestly, I'd have to go back and listen to his stuff a little more analytically. I know I've attempted some of his stuff with mixed success at best. Tie Your Mother Down spends 80% of the song living up around the A above middle C. I can't remember if it goes much beyond that. I really had to be warmed up to get that song. I know some of his stuff goes higher than that. I figure if I'm a high baritone and he leaves me thinking, "holy crap, that's too high for me" then he must be a tenor. His low notes don't really stand out readily in my mind.

@kevin - I'll finish responding later. I have to get off to work.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#52
Quote by axemanchris
:
@kevin - I'll finish responding later. I have to get off to work.

CT

alright

as for freddie mercury I can confirm tie your mother down has the A4 as central note, the rest is higher or slightly lower, princes of the universe is even higher and many others, his songs all lie in the 4th and 5th octave so he cannot bea baritone at all, besides, his voice is very high even when he speaks, anyway, he proved to have 3 octaves in chest voice, and could go up and reach soprano notes in falsetto and head voice.

So far the only baritones I know are:

Eddie Vedder
James Hetfield
Phil D'anselmo
David Coverdale
Ian Gillan
Axl Rose
Elvis Presley (tho I'm not quite sure cause his C#5 sounds very clean and powerful)
Iggy pop
Ville Valo
Eric Clapton
David Bowie
Jim Morrison
Billie Joe Armstrong?
Jimi hendrix
Steve Ray Vaughan
Last edited by kevinmask at Jan 12, 2010,
#54
Quote by axemanchris
:To me, if it sounds falsetto, it IS falsetto. Listen to Iron Maiden. That's full, rich, and powerful. The richness of tone is there, whereas in falsetto, it lacks those overtones. YouTube Pavarotti and high C or something. Again, the power, fullness, and richness are there. You can hear it.

Now, if you're listening to Run to the Hills anyways.... keep listening. The very last note of the song where he sings "life" on the G above the tenor C is falsetto. You can hear the difference in richness of tone. Suddenly, it just lacks that robustness and has become very thin. It's still powerful, but just lacks that robustness of tone.


What I really meant was, if a singer who's blended his registers well does a slide from a note that's obviously a note in full voice to a high note past their last passagio that you would call falsetto if you heard the high note alone, how can you tell when he makes the transition? especially if it's a very smooth slide like at 2:28 in this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuqT8D4Y4z8

or of you wanna hear it rawer without the studio magic it's also around 2:30 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQdbna5LEu4

IIRC he goes up to a high D and briefly touching on the Eb above it, but the smooth slide and just how powerful it sounds makes it sound like full voice to me, what would you say?
edit: oops he doesn't hit the high Eb here, but he does with the same tone and power in another song
Last edited by Cheeseman07 at Jan 12, 2010,
#55
anyway in the world population baritones may outnumber tenors by a ratio of about 8:1 as someone said, but among singers it's the opposite, tenors outnumber baritones, people with high voices get to sing more easily according to many experts who stated that thin vocal cords vibrate more easily than thick ones that require more air and efforts, that might explain why tenors are the majority, therefore baritones who get to sing have a harder path to hit.

Here are the tenors that I know, definitely a longer list compared to the one I posted before:

freddie mercury
sting
bono vox
steve wonder
robert plant
glen hughes
brian johnson
bonn scott
paul di anno
bruce dickinson
johnny winter
steven tyler
brian adams
joe cocker
chad kroeger
jared leto
michael jackson
robbie williams
george michael
paul stanley
ronny james dio
ozzy osbourne
kevin dubrow
twisted sisters
vince neil
the beatles
mick jagger
all "the who" members
James Labrie
Bon Jovi
johnny rotten
dexter holland
kurt kobain
elton john
paul rodger
robben ford
mark ford


I can go on forever, but I guess I'll stop for now
Last edited by kevinmask at Jan 13, 2010,
#56
Quote by kevinmask
anyway in the world population baritones may outnumber tenors by a ratio of about 8:1 as someone said, but among singers it's the opposite, tenors outnumber baritones, people with high voices get to sing more easily according to many experts who stated that thin vocal cords vibrate more easily than thick ones that require more air and efforts, that might explain why tenors are the majority, therefore baritones who get to sing have a harder path to hit.

Here are the tenors that I know, definitely a longer list compared to the one I posted before:

freddie mercury
sting
bono vox
steve wonder
robert plant
glen hughes
brian johnson
bonn scott
paul di anno
bruce dickinson
johnny winter
steven tyler
brian adams
joe cocker
chad kroeger
jared leto
michael jackson
robbie williams
george michael
paul stanley
ronny james dio
ozzy osbourne
kevin dubrow
twisted sisters
vince neil
the beatles
mick jagger
all "the who" members
James Labrie
Bon Jovi
johnny rotten
dexter holland
kurt kobain
elton john
paul rodger
robben ford
mark ford


I can go on forever, but I guess I'll stop for now


Many of those examples are/were not tenors. It's commonly known that Freddie Mercury was actually a baritone, but sang in the tenor range. If you mean Bono from U2, he is naturally quite a deep baritone. Chad Kroeger, baritone. George Harrison was a baritone. I'm pretty sure Roger Daltrey is a baritone. Same for Kurt Cobain. Those are only ones I'm fairly certain about, there may be others. You can generally tell someone's classical register by the tonality of their speaking voice (basses are often an exception.) I'm suspecting we have a different understanding of how many of these vocalists are producing their tenor range notes, so I'm feeling like it would be pointless to continue this.
#58
Quote by Blind In 1 Ear
im pretty sure at least half of those are actually baritones or high baritones. im pretty sure none of the beatles were tenors. i havent heard them sing anything that seems really tenor only,


Someone bought me a book with the sheet music (arranged for piano/voice) for every Beatle's song on record in it - there is not a single melody in it that I've seen that suggests the singer is a tenor. The highest notes in almost every single song I've played out of that book group around the G above high C.

That list is, as people have been saying, at least half-full of baritones. What's the point of this repetative argument you [kevinmask] have about the number of tenors in music? Either accept the standard definition of tenor/baritone/bass (in which case you're wrong) or go ahead and use your own (which just leads to stupid, repetative arguments like this).

I'm fully prepared to accept - not having a great deal of knowledge about most singer's ranges - that there are proportionally more tenors in the music business than the general population, but to the extent that you're trying to argue? It's ridiculous. People are consistently pointing out that singers you're classifying as tenors are actually baritones. Give it up.
Quote by Ed O'Brien
“It’s not genius. It’s just that if you want something good to come out of something, you have to put in a lot of effort. That involves a lot of hard work, and a lot of blood, sweat and tears sometimes.”

http://urbanscarecrow.bandcamp.com/
#59
Quote by Damascus
Someone bought me a book with the sheet music (arranged for piano/voice) for every Beatle's song on record in it - there is not a single melody in it that I've seen that suggests the singer is a tenor. The highest notes in almost every single song I've played out of that book group around the G above high C.


I think you mean the G above middle C. When I've sung beatles covers the highest it ever goes is the G4, and I'm sure of that because its always a semitone too high.
#60
I believe Paul McCartney was a tenor, but none of the other beatles were
the guy can go pretty ****ing high, and even though a lot of his top notes are screamed they still have that bright tenor sound to them
#61
well guys I give up! I don't see the point why you keep saying those people are actually baritones while they always had a very bright voice and sang very high songs, there's no way a baritone can sing queen's songs or the other band/singers I've mentioned, I really dare you sing those songs if you're baritones, but even if you're tenors you won't be able to sing so high unless you're well trained, if they sing in a tenor range it means they are tenors, freddie mercury can't be a baritone, it's listed as a countertenor anywhere, his bass notes lack of body, while his highs are powerfull and often higher than an A4 and most of his repertoire is very high EVEN FOR WOMEN, so please dont blart out bullshit if you don't know the half of it, cause I'm pretty sure those who say "most rock singers are actually baritones" never even tried to sing one rock song in their life nor taken a single singing class.

well I suggest you guys read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baritone

it's pretty clear about the notes that a baritone can cover and what kind of timbre they have ,so it's a non sense to say singers that have the 90% of their repertoire around the G4 A4 B4 and C5 in full voice are baritones, especially when their voice timbre is very high and girly, baritones have a dark and thick sound, unlike freddie mercury, sting etc.

Beatles are tenors, Paul Mccartney is a very high tenor and sing higher than a G4, the only alleged baritone is ringo star, but I'm not even too sure about that.

Another thing, if a singer never sings the high C doesn't mean he's a baritone, a tenor is not compelled to sing his higher notes just because he's a tenor, some tenors for stylistic purposes don't sing higher than a G4 but that doesn' make him a baritone.

Chad Kroeger and Kurt Kobain are not baritones, don't make them fool you cause they have a raspy voice, their voice are really raspy but bright.

Bono Vox often sings a very good tenor high C (see pride in the name of love,) so why should he be a baritone? a baritone doesn't have the high C, and even tenors very rarely touch that note cause it's the point where well trained tenors top, the others top much earlier, the high C is the highest tenor note, and it's hard even for them, so I don't see why a guy who sings the high C has to be a baritone for you.

I think most of you guys are very confused about voice categories, the best way to understand that is singing, I really doubt you guys can cover the artists I've listed as tenors, cause they are actually even higher than an ordinary tenor, singers like sting, mercury, jackson, bonn scott, stewe wonder are even closer to the Alto voice than the Tenor.
Last edited by kevinmask at Jan 13, 2010,
#62
Quote by kevinmask
I think most of you guys are very confused about voice categories, the best way to understand that is singing, I really doubt you guys can cover the artists I've listed as tenors, cause they are actually even higher than an ordinary tenor, singers like sting, mercury, jackson, bonn scott, stewe wonder are even closer to the Alto voice than the Tenor.


Really, look up your stuff first. Alto is a part in choral music. It is not a voice type. The female tessituras are contralto, mezzo-soprano, and soprano. Even if a man is singing in one of those ranges he wouldn't even be called by the female terms, because they are only for females. A man singing above the tenor range is just a countertenor.
#63
Quote by isaac_bandits
Really, look up your stuff first. Alto is a part in choral music. It is not a voice type. The female tessituras are contralto, mezzo-soprano, and soprano. Even if a man is singing in one of those ranges he wouldn't even be called by the female terms, because they are only for females. A man singing above the tenor range is just a countertenor.


Alto and Contralto is the same thing, countertenor is the male voice that covers the alto/contralto range but still with a male timbre, which is the case of mercury, sting, jackson, wonder and most of hard rock singers, some of them are actually tenors leggeros (see robert plant) which is the highest tenor tessitura, but they are always pushed to the countertenor range by using techniques such as falsettone and head voice.

edit: here are the details http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countertenor
Last edited by kevinmask at Jan 13, 2010,
#64
I'm starting to lose interest here too.

Couple of things... Bono in "Pride" hits a convincing B. Not a C, but for me, far enough beyond the baritone range that I can accept his labeling as a tenor.

A person's range is defined by what they *can* sing, as opposed to what they *do* sing, yes. But, particularly for high notes, it is human nature for people to want to show what they can do. If they never do it, how are we to know? In light of the absence of evidence, we kinda have to assume that, if someone like Chad Kroeger or whatever, never sings beyond an A, that they probably can't.

A female contralto is often called an alto. Kinda like how someone who plays the violincello is said to play the cello, or someone who plays double-bass is said to play the bass. But men are never altos or sopranos. Boys, yes. Men... no.

Even in pop music, tenors are rare. McCartney might be one, but the rest of the Beatles... no. We are fooled into thinking people are tenors because of mislabeling by the ignorant, brightness on the high end of the voice (which gives the illusion that the person is singing higher than they actually are.... kinda like the opposite of Pavarotti, where his voice is so rich, people hear him sing the high C and think "yeah, I could probably sing that high".... and then they try and fail....haha), and a propensity for those baritones with brighter voices to sing higher in their ranges.

IMHO, to be a tenor, singing the A is not "close enough." That's a text-book baritone plus one note. A tenor should at least come pretty damned close to getting that C. Sure, if you include all those people who can sing A's to be tenors, then yes, there are tons of 'em. The reason they are so rare is that, given the conventional definition, not many people are physically able to reach those notes. Hence, the 8:1 ratio.

And, in the end, I do agree with chaingarden in that, regardless of what you call it, if it sounds good, it IS good. Brian Johnson is a technically horrible horrible horrible singer. I love AC/DC and Johnson's voice. Meh.... what can you say to that?

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#65
I'm starting to lose interest here too.


A person's range is defined by what they *can* sing, as opposed to what they *do* sing, yes. But, particularly for high notes, it is human nature for people to want to show what they can do. If they never do it, how are we to know? In light of the absence of evidence, we kinda have to assume that, if someone like Chad Kroeger or whatever, never sings beyond an A, that they probably can't.


who told you chad kroeger never sung higher than an A4? in "this is how you remind me" he hits a B4 during the chorus, and in many other songs he does, and he's listed as a low tenor in his book, same as kobain, I don't agree with what you just said that singers tend to give the max, we talked a lot about billie joe amrstrong and he's the proof that a singers who never goes higher than a G4 for years doesn't mean they cant go beyond, now billie sings a lot of G#4 A4 and B4, screaming but he does a good job with those notes just like brian johnson, there's a big industry behind music, and often singers do what they are told to for stylistic purposes, punk rock never really required high notes, so I don't see why a tenor has to be pushed to the limit only because he can, joey ramone is an example, he was a tenor but lacked of technique and never went higher than a G4, not all the tenors out there are well trained or naturally gifted, and an untrained tenor remains a "choral tenor" speaking about vocal ranges, so an A4 is often where an untrained tenor tops, the high C is not something that comes off the tree, even a tenor has to work hard to obtain the high C, let alone a very good high C, Pavarotti didn't have the High C the day he started to take singing classes, he got a lot of training in order to build it.

Brian May from queen can be a very fast lead guitarist, but never exploited his speed skiils at max cause he kinda ended up plaing pop songs in the latest queen's career where speed is not required, same things for singers, they sing what they have to, and many of them don't exploit their full range for "stylistic requirements" (like billie joe did, but he now showed to be able to sing a B4) , plus singing high has nothing to do with skills as we said at the beginning of this thread, in my opinion you can recognize whether someone is a tenor or a baritone by the way they sing even an E4 or a G4 and timbre.


Edit: you guys read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenor for a clearer view of what a tenor does and how it's categorized, at the bottom of the page are listed some pop music tenors

mercury and paul mccartney are listed, so much for the ones who keep saying they are baritones
Last edited by kevinmask at Jan 13, 2010,
#66
Quote by kevinmask
Edit: you guys read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenor for a clearer view of what a tenor does and how it's categorized, at the bottom of the page are listed some pop music tenors

mercury and paul mccartney are listed, so much for the ones who keep saying they are baritones


Do you realize that any of us can go on wikipedia and change the lists for who are baritones and who are tenors?
#67
kevinmask is a douche imho
end of topic?

oh you know I <3 you, but if you want to debate someone about this stuff you can't just scream "NOOOOO! =(" every time they disagree with you
open your mind maaaaaan
Last edited by Cheeseman07 at Jan 13, 2010,
#68
Quote by kevinmask

who told you chad kroeger never sung higher than an A4? in "this is how you remind me" he hits a B4 during the chorus, and in many other songs he does, and he's listed as a low tenor in his book,


Sorry, you may be right. I was just going by memory. I really liked Nickelback up to and including the Silver Side Up album, and not since. (my confession of the day... haha) My memory may be a bit dodgy seeing as I haven't heard that album in about a year.

A low tenor? What the hell is that, anyway? A baritone? *shrug* Baritone describes the range between a bass and a tenor. Bell curves, being what they are, have most of us appearing in the middle. Basic stats. It's like the definition of genius is an IQ of 140 or whatever. Could you be a low genius? No. You can be *almost* a genius, but by definition, you are still not a genius.


Quote by kevinmask

same as kobain,


Going by memory again, but that's just silly. I love his voice. However, he is an awful singer. And as far as range goes, I don't think he has ever croaked out anything higher than a G. If he has, he has only grinded it out on shards of glass, so.... whatever.

Quote by kevinmask

I don't agree with what you just said that singers tend to give the max, we talked a lot about billie joe amrstrong and he's the proof that a singers who never goes higher than a G4 for years doesn't mean they cant go beyond, now billie sings a lot of G#4 A4


Or his range has expanded because he has become a better singer.....

Quote by kevinmask

and B4, screaming


At least you qualified/discredited your own statement for me. Hell, I could probably scream or squawk out a B or a C too, but I'm no tenor. Close-ish, but refer to above genius analogy.

Quote by kevinmask

but he does a good job with those notes just like brian johnson, there's a big industry behind music, and often singers do what they are told to for stylistic purposes, punk rock never really required high notes, so I don't see why a tenor has to be pushed to the limit only because he can,


fair enough

Quote by kevinmask

joey ramone is an example, he was a tenor but lacked of technique and never went higher than a G4,


So by what mysterious criteria was he declared a tenor, I wonder? I'm even somewhat surprised that he even gets that high. Middle C might be starting to get to the top of his comfortable range.

Quote by kevinmask

not all the tenors out there are well trained or naturally gifted, and an untrained tenor remains a "choral tenor"


Maybe, but a choral tenor may also be a highly trained singer who has made the most of his range who just happens to top out around there.

Quote by kevinmask

speaking about vocal ranges, so an A4 is often where an untrained tenor tops,


By definition, if they top out there, they are a baritone. (assuming they can sing downwards towards the low G... if they can only sing down to the C and up to the G, they only have an octave and a half range, and therefore are considered to have incomplete ranges.

You are not a tenor until you can sing tenor material. Some people start off thinking they are baritones, but with training, discover they can sing higher, and therefore "discover" that they are tenors.

Quote by kevinmask

the high C is not something that comes off the tree, even a tenor has to work hard to obtain the high C, let alone a very good high C, Pavarotti didn't have the High C the day he started to take singing classes, he got a lot of training in order to build it.


Which is *precisely* why only 10% of singers are tenors. Based on the same rationale, and the whole bell curve of standard distribution, it also explains why only 10% of male singers are basses.

Quote by kevinmask

Brian May from queen can be a very fast lead guitarist, but never exploited his speed skiils at max cause he kinda ended up plaing pop songs in the latest queen's career where speed is not required, same things for singers, they sing what they have to, and many of them don't exploit their full range for "stylistic requirements" (like billie joe did, but he now showed to be able to sing a B4) ,


true enough, minus the last part.....

Quote by kevinmask

plus singing high has nothing to do with skills as we said at the beginning of this thread, in my opinion you can recognize whether someone is a tenor or a baritone by the way they sing even an E4 or a G4 and timbre.


Though there is some truth to that, caution needs to be taken in order to avoid taking too many liberties with this. Let's say I'm putting on a Broadway show or an opera or something, and the part calls for a male lead who is a tenor. The part isn't, as tenor parts go, especially demanding, topping out only at the Bb. Well, you can have the brightest timbre in the world, and all the other indicators that might suggest this is a tenor could be there, but if you top out at the G#, you can't sing the part. Why not? Cause you're not a tenor!

Quote by kevinmask

Edit: you guys read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenor for a clearer view of what a tenor does and how it's categorized, at the bottom of the page are listed some pop music tenors

mercury and paul mccartney are listed, so much for the ones who keep saying they are baritones


I studied voice for ten years with a guy who was the youngest tenor ever to join the Metropolitan Opera in New York. I'll base my knowledge on that source before I base it on a wikipedia article.

Besides, that high C is pretty standard when defining the tenor range. You can either do it, or you can at least come very close, or you can't. The gray area isn't near as vast as you seem to want to think it is.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#69
Quote by Cheeseman07
I believe Paul McCartney was a tenor, but none of the other beatles were
the guy can go pretty ****ing high, and even though a lot of his top notes are screamed they still have that bright tenor sound to them

after thinking about it, paul might be a tenor. but i really dont think the others were. im watching a video right now showing all their high notes. most of them seem to be A4. paul its a C5 and even some above that but they seem to be pretty shouty.
Last edited by Blind In 1 Ear at Jan 14, 2010,
#70
Quote by kevinmask
well guys I give up! I don't see the point why you keep saying those people are actually baritones while they always had a very bright voice and sang very high songs, there's no way a baritone can sing queen's songs or the other band/singers I've mentioned, I really dare you sing those songs if you're baritones, but even if you're tenors you won't be able to sing so high unless you're well trained, if they sing in a tenor range it means they are tenors, freddie mercury can't be a baritone, it's listed as a countertenor anywhere, his bass notes lack of body, while his highs are powerfull and often higher than an A4 and most of his repertoire is very high EVEN FOR WOMEN, so please dont blart out bullshit if you don't know the half of it, cause I'm pretty sure those who say "most rock singers are actually baritones" never even tried to sing one rock song in their life nor taken a single singing class.

well I suggest you guys read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baritone

it's pretty clear about the notes that a baritone can cover and what kind of timbre they have ,so it's a non sense to say singers that have the 90% of their repertoire around the G4 A4 B4 and C5 in full voice are baritones, especially when their voice timbre is very high and girly, baritones have a dark and thick sound, unlike freddie mercury, sting etc.

Beatles are tenors, Paul Mccartney is a very high tenor and sing higher than a G4, the only alleged baritone is ringo star, but I'm not even too sure about that.

Another thing, if a singer never sings the high C doesn't mean he's a baritone, a tenor is not compelled to sing his higher notes just because he's a tenor, some tenors for stylistic purposes don't sing higher than a G4 but that doesn' make him a baritone.

Chad Kroeger and Kurt Kobain are not baritones, don't make them fool you cause they have a raspy voice, their voice are really raspy but bright.

Bono Vox often sings a very good tenor high C (see pride in the name of love,) so why should he be a baritone? a baritone doesn't have the high C, and even tenors very rarely touch that note cause it's the point where well trained tenors top, the others top much earlier, the high C is the highest tenor note, and it's hard even for them, so I don't see why a guy who sings the high C has to be a baritone for you.

I think most of you guys are very confused about voice categories, the best way to understand that is singing, I really doubt you guys can cover the artists I've listed as tenors, cause they are actually even higher than an ordinary tenor, singers like sting, mercury, jackson, bonn scott, stewe wonder are even closer to the Alto voice than the Tenor.


I'm a baritone, and I'm pretty sure I can sing most Queen songs. It is very widely accepted that Freddie was a baritone with regards to his classical register, and especially his speaking voice. This isn't a point of contention. I'm not sure how else to put this.

Bono is a baritone, straight up. He hits a low A on his duet with Sinatra ("Under My Skin.")

Look, I'm not sure why you think people that can make their voices bright are immediately tenors. You are mistaken. I hate to keep using myself as an example, but I'm very much a baritone (my lowest note is the D below the low E string on a guitar, not counting vocal fry) and I don't feel like I have an extraordinary amount of difficulty singing very many songs. Actually, now that you mention Michael Jackson, I've got a half-joking cover of Billie Jean in my profile. It's not my best, but I think it'll convince you that baritones aren't unable to hit convincing tenor notes, especially in the second half.
#71
^funny thing about Michael Jackson actually, I don't think he had that high of a voice as far as his "natural" range goes
check out some of his seth riggs training vids on youtube, he goes down to a pretty decent low F and I think seth riggs said he could sing a low E as well, but the low F I've heard is pretty resonant
I think it's more that he hated sounding like an adult, and of course he blended his registers like a champ
#72
About Bono.... so he hits a low A, and can sing up and hit a decidedly convincing B just shy of tenor C.

Not really a textbook model of either baritone or tenor, so you could argue either way. His voice is situated in that spot right in the middle. Given the strength of the high B, I would be happy guessing he could get the C as well. Could he hit the low G? I dunno.

He's one of those people who could do both. It's not that unusual for a tenor to top out at a B if it is at least pretty solid and consistent.

I'd have a hard time supporting pigeon-holing him in either one exclusively, but he could most certainly - at least by all appearances - call himself a tenor.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#73
im starting to think that these vocal ranges are kinda stupid. i mean, i doubt anyone really falls strictly into one range. overtime with practice and good technique, you can stretch your range. it probably only matters if you are singing something more classically based or in a choral type situation. in popular music though, it doesnt really mean much.
#74
Quote by Chaingarden
I'm a baritone, and I'm pretty sure I can sing most Queen songs. It is very widely accepted that Freddie was a baritone with regards to his classical register, and especially his speaking voice. This isn't a point of contention. I'm not sure how else to put this.

Bono is a baritone, straight up. He hits a low A on his duet with Sinatra ("Under My Skin.")

Look, I'm not sure why you think people that can make their voices bright are immediately tenors. You are mistaken. I hate to keep using myself as an example, but I'm very much a baritone (my lowest note is the D below the low E string on a guitar, not counting vocal fry) and I don't feel like I have an extraordinary amount of difficulty singing very many songs. Actually, now that you mention Michael Jackson, I've got a half-joking cover of Billie Jean in my profile. It's not my best, but I think it'll convince you that baritones aren't unable to hit convincing tenor notes, especially in the second half.


I'd really like to hear you sing queen's songs, really, do you have any recording? you just said you have the low D! for queen's songs you often require even a high E5, (freddie's chest voice tops at the F#5) so you'd have 3 octaves and a half which is humanly impossible, freddie is one oh the highest voices ever, you just sound stupid when you say he's a baritone, if he's a baritone, I'm a counterbass, so would be most of the rest of the singers, and tenors wouldn't exist, funny that you think jackson is a baritone too, another one of the highest voices ever, I guess mariah carey is a baritone too from your point of view, at this point either you're jocking or again you're extremely confused about vocal registers and high notes.

I'm a real baritone, gone through a good ten years of experience, I can sing anything within the low E2 and the high G4 (point where the canonic baritone tops), 2 octaves and one tone, which is the average, only very gifted humans can have more than this, whatever is higher than the G4 is impossible for me, and have to transpose, I think you read the wikipedia article, the baritone goes from G2 to G4, there might be an error gap of one tone or one and a half at either top end but not of a whole octave, the high C5 is where a good trained tenor tops (not all the pop tenors have it), from D5 on is Alto range, a baritone can sing in the alto range in falsetto (see ian gillan), but this is not the case of mercury, jackson and the others mentioned in my list, as for the low A2 that's a note that tenors do have, not very thick and sustainy like baritones' but they have it, especially if they are dramatic tenors, a baritone goes much lower than that.
#75
here is the difference on how a baritone sounds like compared to tenors:

baritones examples,

hear how deep their voices are

axl rose http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V593MMT-DLY
eddie vedder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2QEqQoygws&translated=1
david coverdale http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zlfy9bhAUqw

now let's hear some well known tenors

robert plant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgCyGHr35To&feature=PlayList&p=178A63ACB7DC32D5&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=7
michael jackson (countertenor) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQwY4ll1Kfc
paul mccartney http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aqGtxoXPLE&feature=fvw
freddie mercury http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4XgdWDhvQw&feature=related
sting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDoDrhsdFjQ

pretty big difference huh?
Last edited by kevinmask at Jan 14, 2010,
#76
Quote by kevinmask
if he's a baritone, I'm a counterbass, so would be most of the rest of the singers, and tenors wouldn't exist


A counterbass would be a pointless vocal category equivalent to a tenor or baritone....
#77
Quote by isaac_bandits
A counterbass would be a pointless vocal category equivalent to a tenor or baritone....

counterbass is just a stupid thing that I've said as a response to what cheeseman said about mercury, c'mon isaac wake up!!!!
#78
I just realized an answer to the original question:

For some reason high notes impress people. I don't get it myself, but it's true. Say you're playing in the lower two octaves on guitar, maybe doing something technically impressive, or maybe not. You whip out a quick scale run or arpeggio and eventually land on a D6, bending it up to an E6. People will clap,as long as you sustain the note instead of deadening it.

I realize that was irrelevant to the conversation, but I felt like I'd share my two cents.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#79
Quote by kevinmask
counterbass is just a stupid thing that I've said as a response to what cheeseman said about mercury, c'mon isaac wake up!!!!


Wake up? Seems like someone just is frustrated when people point out that he doesn't really know what he's talking about. If you wanted a stupid term for a really low singer (which is what context said you wanted), you would have sound contrabass, since that's the range below bass, although its only used to describe instruments, as people can't sing that low.
#80
lol kevin I've never seen anyone get so pissed off over voice types
though if Michael Jackson really is a natural counter-tenor, would he be able to hit the same low notes as you without using vocal fry?

ps stop with the stubbornness, when everyone's disagreeing with you and you're using wikipedia as a reference that should maybe tell you something sugarcakes