Page 3 of 4
#81
Quote by isaac_bandits
A counterbass would be a pointless vocal category equivalent to a tenor or baritone....


I think he meant basso profundo. That is a bass with an especially strong bottom end (haha.... that sounded funny....) and often even extended lower range.

A lyric baritone is one who sings up to the A or Bb, but still not strong enough on the high end to be considered a tenor.

IIRC, a spinto tenor is one with an especially high and bright voice throughout the tenor range.

But yeah.... they're labels that attempt to describe voices and vocal ranges. There are more voices and ranges than there are names, so there is *some* room for dispute. However, not *that* much. In the end, though, they are just labels.

Essentially we're arguing about semantics. Meh.... If it sounds good, it is good.

A lot of the hair metal singers - and chaingarden can do this as well - have developed their falsetto such that their transition between their full voice and their falsetto is nearly seamless. Sure, maybe you can't quite tell that the A above middle C is falsetto or not, because it is blended well, but once you get up to the tenor C and beyond, it becomes pretty obvious. Tenors who can do this can often get upwards to that E5 and beyond. (like my example of the last note of Run to the Hills, which is the G at the high end of a mezzo-soprano range.)

I've really not studied either of them, but maybe that's what MJ and FM are doing too. I'm sure that is what was meant above by a "baritone singing in the tenor range."

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#82
Quote by food1010
I just realized an answer to the original question:

For some reason high notes impress people. I don't get it myself, but it's true. Say you're playing in the lower two octaves on guitar, maybe doing something technically impressive, or maybe not. You whip out a quick scale run or arpeggio and eventually land on a D6, bending it up to an E6. People will clap,as long as you sustain the note instead of deadening it.

I realize that was irrelevant to the conversation, but I felt like I'd share my two cents.


No, not irrelevant.... from page 1:

Quote by axemanchris

1. Regardless of instrument, people tend to associate high notes with skill. High notes on trumpets will get the applause. People love to see people doing guitar solos up the neck and squealing out those high notes. And people love to hear a singer crank it up and wail out an impressive high note. Why? I dunno, but my point is that it isn't just singers.


Has this discussion come full-circle yet?



CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#83
Quote by kevinmask
here is the difference on how a baritone sounds like compared to tenors:

baritones examples,

hear how deep their voices are

axl rose http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V593MMT-DLY
eddie vedder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2QEqQoygws&translated=1
david coverdale http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zlfy9bhAUqw

now let's hear some well known tenors

robert plant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgCyGHr35To&feature=PlayList&p=178A63ACB7DC32D5&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=7
michael jackson (countertenor) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQwY4ll1Kfc
paul mccartney http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aqGtxoXPLE&feature=fvw
freddie mercury http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4XgdWDhvQw&feature=related
sting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDoDrhsdFjQ

pretty big difference huh?


There IS some truth that your speaking voice and your singing voice are often indicative of each other.

However, hearing a bunch of their speaking voices doesn't prove anything about their singing ranges.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#84
Quote by axemanchris
There IS some truth that your speaking voice and your singing voice are often indicative of each other.

However, hearing a bunch of their speaking voices doesn't prove anything about their singing ranges.

CT

but in this case we also have proof about their singing, unles you never heard them
#85
Quote by isaac_bandits
Wake up? Seems like someone just is frustrated when people point out that he doesn't really know what he's talking about. If you wanted a stupid term for a really low singer (which is what context said you wanted), you would have sound contrabass, since that's the range below bass, although its only used to describe instruments, as people can't sing that low.


contrabass doesn't exist either speaking about vocal Mr smarty pants, it's just as stupid as counterbass, counterbass logically would make more sense due to the countertenor opposite part.

counter/contra has exactly the same meaning, comes from latin and means "against"
counter is english, contra is latin, you wanna be smarter than me but it seems like you lack of semantic and linguistic notions as well.

stop with the stubbornness, when everyone's disagreeing with you and you're using wikipedia as a reference that should maybe tell you something sugarcakes


if people disagree with me doesn't mean you're right, the stubborn here is you, have you ever read a music book? I studied plenty, even a middle school music book categorizes voices the same way as wikipedia does, I posted you a wikipedia page cause it's the fastest way to show something in a forum, but you're free to check vocal types and ranges info anywhere else on the web and see that I'm right, anyway that page is written by an expert and it's checked daily in case someone modifies something with bullshits, but I know I'm wasting my time with you, cause you're just too proud of yourself and you won't change your mind, I posted written notes and audio proofs, but you just keep ignoring them and grasping at straws, so I told you enough times you're wrong about those singers, and I won't tell you again, remain in your ignorance and stubbornness if that makes you happy, adios.
#86
Quote by kevinmask
I'd really like to hear you sing queen's songs, really, do you have any recording? you just said you have the low D! for queen's songs you often require even a high E5, (freddie's chest voice tops at the F#5) so you'd have 3 octaves and a half which is humanly impossible, freddie is one oh the highest voices ever, you just sound stupid when you say he's a baritone, if he's a baritone, I'm a counterbass, so would be most of the rest of the singers, and tenors wouldn't exist, funny that you think jackson is a baritone too, another one of the highest voices ever, I guess mariah carey is a baritone too from your point of view, at this point either you're jocking or again you're extremely confused about vocal registers and high notes.

I'm a real baritone, gone through a good ten years of experience, I can sing anything within the low E2 and the high G4 (point where the canonic baritone tops), 2 octaves and one tone, which is the average, only very gifted humans can have more than this, whatever is higher than the G4 is impossible for me, and have to transpose, I think you read the wikipedia article, the baritone goes from G2 to G4, there might be an error gap of one tone or one and a half at either top end but not of a whole octave, the high C5 is where a good trained tenor tops (not all the pop tenors have it), from D5 on is Alto range, a baritone can sing in the alto range in falsetto (see ian gillan), but this is not the case of mercury, jackson and the others mentioned in my list, as for the low A2 that's a note that tenors do have, not very thick and sustainy like baritones' but they have it, especially if they are dramatic tenors, a baritone goes much lower than that.


I literally just provided a recording for you that spans a wider range than you suggested.

You have to approach rock differently in this sense. Purity and consistency of tone isn't as stressed as it is in classical music, not to mention unamplified projection. These baritones could not reach these notes with classical standards imposed, I'll give you that much. Music books in school don't cover popular or rock music, and how the voice works in that context.

Freddie Mercury pushed a lot to reach his high notes. You can hear it more in live footage than on recordings. I don't know what to tell you about that. It's well documented that Freddie Mercury was considered a baritone by classical standards, and by other professional classical singers that were his contemporaries and peers. He had a wide range for a baritone, and he pushed his full voice really far, but he was a baritone.

Do not patronize me. You have, in almost every occasion that you've posted in this thread, proven yourself ignorant at best. It's one thing to purport falsehoods. It's entirely another to be antagonistic towards others, while holding false and improperly educated beliefs. If you're going to insist things that are not true, or not well researched, while being defensive and toxic, kindly shut your mouth or leave. You might be able to get away with people only thinking you're uneducated about the subject, rather than an acerbic moron.
#87
Quote by axemanchris
No, not irrelevant.... from page 1:


Has this discussion come full-circle yet?



CT
Oh, haha, sorry for repeating what's already been said.

Edit: I even posted like two posts later

I actually quoted something from that exact post.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Jan 15, 2010,
#88
Quote by kevinmask
but in this case we also have proof about their singing, unles you never heard them

axl rose...eddie vedder.... david coverdale

now let's hear some well known tenors

robert plant ... michael jackson..... paul mccartney.....freddie mercury.... sting


Disclaimer - I'm going totally by memory here, so forgive me if I'm talking out of my hat, but here are my impressions:

David Coverdale you listed as a baritone, and Robert Plant you listed as tenor. And yet they sound very much the same in a lot of ways, including their ranges. In fact, IIRC, Jimmy Page has called David Coverdale a Robert Plant wannabe. They both use their falsetto a lot to achieve those high ranges. Come to think of it, so do Jackson.

Speaking of falsetto.... Axl Rose uses his a lot too. It's hard to gage Rose and Coverdale (from memory) because all of their really high notes are falsetto. I really can't place them singing high notes in full voice. Maybe this is the basis on which they are listed as baritones? And yet Plant is a tenor.... interesting.

Vedder = baritone = very good example.

I'd have to go back and give a good listen to Sting to say whether I agree or not. Maybe.

McCartney and Mercury.... from memory I would agree, in the absence of better evidence to the contrary.

I think if you want to pick good examples, they should be ones who, when they demonstrate their ranges, do so in full voice.

Bono from U2 going up to the B in Pride... that was a good example. The guy from Trooper ("Raise a Little Hell", "Boys in the Bright White Sports Car") is a good example. Bruce Dickenson. There are a bunch, but you really have to start thinking.

Dexter Holland from Offspring would be, I think, though it can be a little hard to tell where his falsetto kicks in. That other list that mentioned Johnny Rotten as a tenor.... LOL.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#89
Quote by Chaingarden
I literally just provided a recording for you that spans a wider range than you suggested.


I can't find it. Maybe it's Friday afternoon blindness. I was genuinely interested in hearing it as an information piece, not to discredit you.

Quote by Chaingarden

You have to approach rock differently in this sense. Purity and consistency of tone isn't as stressed as it is in classical music, not to mention unamplified projection. These baritones could not reach these notes with classical standards imposed, I'll give you that much. Music books in school don't cover popular or rock music, and how the voice works in that context.


I agree, basically. And to take that one step further, in rock music, nobody really *cares* whether you're a baritone or a tenor or an inverted stupified catatonic widget. Those classifications are good descriptors for voice types, which is HUGELY important when casting an opera or a musical, but are essentially unnecessary unless you have a real burning desire to categorize things for the sake of doing so.

Quote by Chaingarden

Freddie Mercury pushed a lot to reach his high notes. You can hear it more in live footage than on recordings. I don't know what to tell you about that. It's well documented that Freddie Mercury was considered a baritone by classical standards, and by other professional classical singers that were his contemporaries and peers. He had a wide range for a baritone, and he pushed his full voice really far, but he was a baritone.


You make an interesting - and important - qualifier. I don't know if I've ever heard any live Queen. I'm really not a fan, though I can appreciate them for what they are. My 'tenor' assessment is based on how he sounds in the studio. Maybe on a good day, doing a take here and there, each line in isolation, he can hit those tenor notes in full voice... assisted a bit by some judicious reverb and such. If he can't do them live, then.... he can't *really* do them consistently enough to have them be part of his range. I have some YouTubing to do.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#90
Open 'unofficial' warning - there are a few words/phrases in these last couple pages that I think are really crossing the line into flaming territory.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#92
i said before that i thought mark farner was a baritone because of how low he talks. but then i listened to him talk back in the day and im not so sure. then i listened to the song i want freedom and his range, and the power behind it makes me think he probably is a tenor. either way, hes one of my singing heros and ill keep trying to sing his songs.

second opinion? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhZ3PwmdDoQ&feature=PlayList&p=78E34F5AE201E461&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=6

is he belting his falsetto or is this full voice? the other thing i notice is its pretty clean singing, not like axl or robert plant even.
#95
myles kennedy has insane range being a tenor.. and he doesnt sound girly at all.. and its amazing when backed behind marks hard hitting riffs
Quote by extrememetal94
I really hope I have a small penis.
#96
In that Billie Jean cover, on a quick listen, I heard notes going up to at least the B. That's beyond baritone range. MJ hits them quite cleanly, though I don't recall if he uses falsetto there or not.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#97
I came across this thread searching for academia's opinion on what Kurt Cobain's actual register was because I feel mine is pretty similar. I couldn't resist putting in my two cents into the matter.

Now why people want to be tenors, truth is; it just sounds better. A true tenor voice is really the most versatile vocal fach, especially one (male) that lands almost dead center amongst all the possible fachs such as Jeff Buckely. Jeff Buckley was a Tenor II which is pretty much broaching the female alto range, which he could sing effortlessly by the way. I think the rationale behind why an individual is so prized for possessing this type of voice probably has a lot to do with it being so balanced between the sexes really; high enough to be beautiful, but still maintains a twinge of masculinity in it. Paul McCartney, same deal; naturally very high voice. You can see him in an interview on youtube mimicking Michael Jackson's voice to a tee.

As far as possibly ranges, anything over 3 octaves, without falsetto, is pretty impressive. It is possible mind you, but only with intense training. A baritone's high C will have a slightly darker timbre to it than a natural tenor's high C, even with this training, though to most the two notes can sound very similar in quality.

It is accepted that certain cultures have different tones at which they speak. Look at the Japanese, it seems many of them in television either lower their voices when they're men to sound more masculine or higher them (and this is proven, look it up) if they are women to sound more effeminate. The issue with this is that most older Japanese men are not very tall and couldn't possibly have developed enough tissue on their vocal cords to make their voices sound so deep. They talk downward! I'm just illustrating here that speaking voice is not indicative of a certain vocal classification because it is very easy to manipulate one's voice to sound higher or lower; it's how voice actors an impressionists work.

It is generally accepted that most baritones can sing at least somewhat into tenor range as that voice type can go slightly upward or downward into whichever corresponding classification. Thing is though, when you get to the nitty gritty, there are a whole host of even subclassifications within each voice type.

For instance, Freddie Mercury was a natural baritone, but he was one of few people to possess an almost 4 octave range (something like over 5 with falsetto) which is astounding really. Speaking voices are not indicative of some one's singing range all the time. I share a lot in common with Freddie Mercury. I love tenors, really do, been training for almost ten years trying to expand my range, but I am a natural baritone, however, much like Freddie Mercury and Kurt Cobain I'm one of those inbetweeners. Which is frustrating really because not many known singers possess or have possessed that voice type. By the way, many people think I'm gay because my voice is so light and because it doesn't match with my height, that's how light I sound (almost like Jeff Buckley's speaking voice I've been told).

My own speaking voice is very high for my height (nearly 6'2"), and I've attained a 3.5 octave range, literally 4.5 with falsetto, and I can tell you that even my voice isn't at all as light as Jeff Buckley's or Thom Yorke's. However, I can say, that my voice is much, much lighter than Eddie Veddars or many of the other baritones you guys listed. I can sing bass through Tenor I; it's the mid to upper reaches of Tenor II in full voice where my voice conks out on me. I've even been singing some Queen lately to learn that style and yes, I seem to be able to match everything and seem to be just short of some of the very high stuff Freddie can sing (Seaside Rendesvouz is proving to not be that difficult range wise).

You all have to realize something though, people, baritones like Freddie really pushed their voices. It is known Freddie had really bad vocal cord nodules to the point they would periodically burst and he'd cough up blood. There was one point in his life where he didn't speak aside from necessary things at all for months at a time so he could preserve his voice for singing. I myself, from trying to sing like Jeremy Enigk, blew out my voice once and developed vocal cord nodules at one point. This was not fun. And as far as singing at a young age, yes, it does play a crucial role in maintaining a lighter voice and expanding one's range. I have anecdotal evidence I'd like to share.

I'm now 25 and I started singing when I was 15. I was always trying to expand my range because of the singers I loved like Jeff Buckley, Jeremy Enigk, and Thom Yorke. In the end, as I said, I developed a 4.5 octave range (about 1 to 1.25 of that falsetto), I just tested this a few weeks ago. I can sing from a higher bass to a tenor I and even some tenor II with no problem. I can sing soprano (not just alto!) in my falsetto (working on Dido's lament, yeah, really). I am positive because of my height I would have ended up with a much lower voice as my family where the men on my dad's side are all no taller than 5'9" (my father) are all baritones, and deep ones at that. Also I am pretty thin, I'm about 170 lbs. at nearly 6'2" (I have a lot of lean muscle), but I feel being thin also makes your voice much lighter, think about it for a second, less skin and other cells to block the flow of air through your vocal cords and larynx. I think this also plays into my voice being lighter, but I digress.

Training at a young age to retain certain vocal qualities has even been studied over hundreds of years and has been proven by more scientific methods in the past century. Singing at an early age will enable you to retain a higher voice or at least a larger range (with training) unless hormones really do you in. It's just like gymnastics, gymnasts are nearly flexible for life because most start at a very young age.

Now one of my best friends (same age pretty much) is a musician too and he just started singing maybe 3 or 4 years ago. He's more or a less a real tenor. A deep one, but a real tenor nonetheless. He probably only at most has a range of one and a half to two octaves and his falsetto is not really developed at all. He's good mind you because the type of music he plays doesn't necessitate vocal acrobatics. Nevertheless, there is a good case to be made; I am of the strong opinion that had he started singing before puberty was over for him that his voice would be lighter and he would have more range. Yes, genetics do influence to a degree what your range will be, but I am a firm believer in that proper training or practice is the only way to fully utilize it.
#98
your size doesnt really have anything to do with your voice. ive seen tall/big peope with high voices and small/short people with deep voices. unless you have some sort of data on this, i think its BS.

anyways, i think the only reason why people like tenors is that most people arent one. its different from the norm. they can go higer than most people so it seems impressive. lots of people like baritones as well though. i like baritone singers because their voice usually sounds darker and fuller. but one of my favorite singers is a tenor, stevie wonder.
#99
Quote by Simptom

Now why people want to be tenors, truth is; it just sounds better.


So, by way of an almost exactly parallel comparison, you would also agree that a violin sounds better than a viola? That a trumpet sounds better than an trombone?

Quote by Simptom

As far as possibly ranges, anything over 3 octaves, without falsetto, is pretty impressive.


That's like saying that a person who wins an Olympic medal, or the person who graduates from university with a 99% average is pretty impressive. Sure, possible, but only for those very rare super humans.

Quote by Simptom

It is possible mind you, but only with intense training. A baritone's high C


If a baritone could hit a high C, he wouldn't be a baritone... Unless of course his strength was in the lower part of his range and his high C was barely usable, in which case, can he *really* sing the high C?

Quote by Simptom

It is generally accepted that most baritones can sing at least somewhat into tenor range as that voice type can go slightly upward or downward into whichever corresponding classification. Thing is though, when you get to the nitty gritty, there are a whole host of even subclassifications within each voice type.


Yes, this is all true. However, within the two octaves of any two adjacent major classification groups (say, between baritone and tenor), there will be a full octave of overlap. Whereas the baritone will be able to sing below the C below middle C and down to a G, the tenor will be able to sing from the G above middle C up to the C.

Quote by Simptom

For instance, Freddie Mercury was a natural baritone, but he was one of few people to possess an almost 4 octave range (something like over 5 with falsetto) which is astounding really.


Yeah, I'll say, seeing as my 24-fret guitar only has four octaves, and my full-sized piano only has seven.

Do you seriously believe that *anyone* has that kind of range? Come on. Man, I hate it when people inflate people's ranges with unsubstantiated hyperbole rather than being realistic about it.

Quote by Simptom

much like Freddie Mercury and Kurt Cobain I'm one of those inbetweeners.


Cobain was an in-betweener? Sorry, I'm going entirely on memory here, but my recollection of his singing is such that he squawks out anything higher than an F# just below the top of the upper baritone range. (F# above middle C). He's *miles* from being an in-between, unless of course, my memory has a huge hole in it. It has happened before.

Quote by Simptom

baritones like Freddie really pushed their voices. It is known Freddie had really bad vocal cord nodules to the point they would periodically burst and he'd cough up blood. There was one point in his life where he didn't speak aside from necessary things at all for months at a time so he could preserve his voice for singing.


Yes, I have heard this too. Unfortunately, this provides evidence that people who are baritones should probably not try to be tenors.

Quote by Simptom

I myself, from trying to sing like Jeremy Enigk, blew out my voice once and developed vocal cord nodules at one point. This was not fun.


Above advice further supported. Have you learned from your mistakes? Are you doing anything differently so this doesn't happen again?

Quote by Simptom

I developed a 4.5 octave range (about 1 to 1.25 of that falsetto), I just tested this a few weeks ago.


I'd like to hear that. See above.

Quote by Simptom

I am positive because of my height I would have ended up with a much lower voice as my family where the men on my dad's side are all no taller than 5'9" (my father) are all baritones, and deep ones at that. Also I am pretty thin, I'm about 170 lbs. at nearly 6'2" (I have a lot of lean muscle), but I feel being thin also makes your voice much lighter, think about it for a second, less skin and other cells to block the flow of air through your vocal cords and larynx.


And then look at Pavarotti.... one of the very few modern tenors who can NAIL that tenor high C.

Quote by Simptom

Now one of my best friends (same age pretty much) is a musician too and he just started singing maybe 3 or 4 years ago. He's more or a less a real tenor. A deep one, but a real tenor nonetheless. He probably only at most has a range of one and a half to two octaves


Now, I didn't start singing until I was almost 30, (hardly having sung a note for about 18 years prior to that), and I can get a little better than two octaves in full voice with enough power to fill a small theater without a mic.


Quote by Simptom

Yes, genetics do influence to a degree what your range will be, but I am a firm believer in that proper training or practice is the only way to fully utilize it.


Now THIS I entirely agree with. Your range is defined by two things:

1. The length and thickness of your vocal cords.
2. The training required to ensure that you are not limiting your potential unnecessarily.

Genetics defines the first of those, and training addresses the second.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#100
Several things I'd like to address Axemanchris:

As far as stringed instruments go... Think to yourself why violin takes precedence over things like cello and bass when it comes to orchestral leads or solos. The human brain is programmed to find certain sounds more pleasing than others. There is scientific evidence out there that supports this with studies done on "the most pleasing sounds" to human beings' ears. I strongly believe that the tenor voice or any "preferred" voice type for that matter certainly play into this. If I'm wrong, then why is the proportion to tenors and baritones so skewed when it comes to popular music?

Possessing a range of over three octaves isn't quite entirely all that rare. Most classical and professional singers (not "vocalists" in bands mind you) seem to have a range at least close to three octaves. Many critics will agree that to be a professional singer a minimum range of about 3 octaves is necessary to separate oneself from the rest of the herd. However, there are many exceptions to this rule!

A baritone hitting a high C is still a baritone. A baritone that can do this would only be adjusting accordingly to the vocal fach of a tenor. See heldontenors or dramatic tenors for this. Many baritones are able to push their voices upwards in order to achieve this. You play guitar right Axeman? So you're telling me that the A fretted on the low E string of the guitar has the same EXACT tonal quality as the open A on the next string down? I don't know about you, but my ears certainly detect that the fretted A does not quite ring out the same as that open A because of the difference in string tension. It is just slightly, slightly short of being as bright as that open A. I myself when learning from ear on guitar seem to instinctively make this distinction when I do learn by ear. When I check a tab or sheet music to check my progress, I am usually on the mark with exactly what note on what fret I should be playing. Similarly, there's such a thing as vocal tension too you know and this plays into the flexibility and thickness of vocal cords and voice classification. I can certainly tell the difference, but maybe it's just me.

Freddie did have a 5 octave range, and so did Tim Buckley, both of which, as in describing my 4+ octave range, get sketchy for me when they approach their highest octave. They seem to have been able to hit all the same low notes as I can too. Because of this, knowing my own range, I am convinced that they had nearly 5+ few note octave ranges including falsetto. Tim Buckley was certainly a tenor though, but his voice darkened considerably when he got older. Even though he was intentionally singing low from Greetings From L.A. onward, one can tell that his voice still darkened as he got older. This is what I can match best from him and hit nearly everything he could at this point; again, nearly.

As far as height; it's usually implied with that the larger the human being is the larger his vocal folds would possibly be as he is just, well, large. Hence the misbelief that this is true for all tall people. I think there is a breaking point for height where a lighter voice would be more prevalent though and that weight will play a larger role the taller you are. Pavarotti was only about 5'9" to, at the very most, and this is being generous, 5'10" or 5'11" which is doubtful. 5'10" seems to be the point at which height begins to play a role. Honestly, how many 6'2" dudes have you met in your life who had a light voice? I can only think of only one other than myself that I've met in my adult life... Vocal cord thickness by extension of height plays more of a role past a breaking point. Though I agree that this isn't always the case.

I wish I had some digital recording gear because I'd love to demo my range for you Axe. I have about an octave to an octave and half off the low E string on the guitar downwards and can sing up to falsetto on about the 16th to 18th fret (remember, about an octave of that is falsetto) on the high E string. I do vocal exercises with my guitar often enough. Believe me, it is obtainable. You have only been singing since you were 30. I started during puberty. I began singing early enough to achieve this. To say that singing at an early age doesn't affect one's voice is bollocks. I am a firm believer that had Michael Jackson not sung as early as he did his voice would be nowhere nearly as bright as it was.

A recent example of the range I do possess occurred recently. I was visiting my parents at their home and watching television with my step mother. I was watching a clip of Show Boat and jokingly sang a deep bass mimicking the singer of the song "Old Man River" much to her laughter. Then, we listened to Ella Fitzgerald's "Summer Time" and I was able to sing her parts in a mixed and falsetto voice, MATCHING all the notes both singers had sung. Needless to say she was thoroughly impressed. Call me a light baritone/countertenor if you will, doesn't matter to me. This is possible!

I have nothing to prove and no reason to lie on a fricking internet forum just to feel special. I can understand the skepticism, but this is not the case for me. I remember my first formal vocal lesson so vividly. I had slightly over a three octave range, without falsetto, walking into the door to my first lesson at age 18 having sung for about 3 years on my own and my vocal instructor was quite impressed with my range on that first lesson. This correlates to the time I just discovered Jeff Buckley and about a year or two after discovering Jeremy Enigk which changed my whole view on the voice as an instrument. From that point on I really began pushing my voice. I am a natural light baritone as I said and my comfortable range is almost exactly like Kurt Cobain's softer/higher side to give you an idea. And yes, he had to have been in between voice types as his voice was way too light compared to your classic baritone like Eddie Veddar or Chris Cornell.

As far as the vocal damage, yes, I have identified the problem and hopefully fixed it. I was singing for way too long at nearly 6 hours a day in way too high a register singing at nearly a very very light tenor register. I developed vocal cord nodules and couldn't sing for 9 months. It was hell. But I really only ran into problems originally when I was recording a few years back and was having a rough time with my band mate. I was trying to prove to him I wanted to play with him (he thought at the time my temperamental voice was an excuse to hold us both back musically) by singing through the worst bout of laryngitis I've ever had in my life. Not to mention I had severe tonsillitis during this time and had to get a tonsillectomy that summer and that I was just diagnosed with GERD! Fun right? I even had to go through extreme dietary changes for singing, but it's worth it.

Either way, I sing in a warmer tone now and have learned to mix up my voice since (been singing kind of like a mix between Tim Buckley, bit of Jeff Buckley, Morrissey, Rufus Wainwright, and Ryan Adams anymore). Furthermore, it sucks, but this just solidifies my belief that baritones have to work harder to achieve a more pleasant singing voice. I am really envious of natural tenors because their voices oftentimes sound so naturally pleasant without as much training as I've had to go through, like my roommate and former band mate, confound him!

I want to add Axeman, no hard feelings here. I'm really enjoying this debate with you and I think you pose some very good points. I'm only speaking from my own personal experiences and from all the information I've learned about the voice from over the years. I've had some formal training and have done a lot of research on the topic of vocal health and training. This is where I'm coming from.

With that said, fire away!

P.S. There's one last thing I'd like to add. For those of you who think that falsetto is not a true representation of range and that when people include this they are padding their own purported range I say to you, you are wrong! It's called mixed head voice baby! Many people out there are able to meld the top end of their register with falsetto. This takes training to learn, but it is possible. I personally do not agree with anyone saying some one singing in mixed head voice is singing in falsetto. There is an obvious purity and tonal quality difference in these registers. Jeff Buckley did this a ton, but he reserved his true falsetto for things like Corpus Christi Carol and Dido's Lament.

It's for this reason that instead of saying I possess a 3.5 octave range that I possess a 4.5 octave range. A good singer can ride the line between head voice and falsetto and by extension, expand upon his head register. It's for this very reason that I get somewhat pissy when people say that falsetto is not a true representation of range. So then, since Klaus Nomi sang well over 3 octaves, close to 4, in falsetto, plus had his baritone of at most two, which is about as far as he went with his baritone register, you're telling me that he only had a 2 octave voice? Get real!

It's funny how people seem to make exceptions and accept that falsetto is a real part of one person's range and others not. Fans of Mariah Carey love to say she has a 5 octave voice. Well, I know for a fact women do possess a falsetto and that those notes she hits in whistle register are falsetto, not her chest or head register or is the result of at least a very well blended head voice. So I think it should be accepted that falsetto is a natural extension of a person's accepted range.
Last edited by Simptom at Feb 8, 2010,
#101
I just want to straight out say that nobody has a "useful" 5 octave range.
You may have 5 if you count your vocal fry and whistle voice but there is almost no musical use to the extreme ends.

Besides, counting whistle voice as part of your range is a cheap way to go about it and no indication of the singer's ability.

How many kids who have never sang in their life can squeeze out a really high scream? Does that mean that they have a 5 octave vocal range too? That's silly, you're silly.
#102
I just think tenor voices sound better.

Like, I'd rather listen to Secondhand Serenade over Frank Sinatra anyday. >_>
#103
Quote by King Turi
I just think tenor voices sound better.

Like, I'd rather listen to Secondhand Serenade over Frank Sinatra anyday. >_>

It's your music taste i guess...

I just want to straight out say that nobody has a "useful" 5 octave range.
You may have 5 if you count your vocal fry and whistle voice but there is almost no musical use to the extreme ends.

agree.
as for me, I even do not see a point to count falceto as a "range".... real range is a chest voice + head voice (not the "falceto-like" one)
#104
Caught me in an edit Cheeseman. Read my last post with the post script. It addresses what you said.

I agree with you. I am counting my vocal fry, however, top end is what I can squeak out while actually singing and sustain somewhat. It's hard as hell to do, but I liken it to Jeff Buckley's highest note ever recorded on his song "Gunshot Glitter". It's not very powerful, but it's not just a squeak that is not very audible and cannot be sustained.

It should be said though that there are only a few notes after vocal fry that I can't use, meaning I can use almost all of my low end. I think this goes the same for most people as the unusable end of the low end of a voice is very minimal as lower notes are generally easier for most men to hit versus attaining higher notes (I hope I'm making sense here, heh).

I agree though, most music does not call for 3 or 4 octaves being used. I use anywhere between 1.5 to 3.5 and rarely 4 in most of the songs I sing. Why? Because when it comes to covers most people don't possess or care to perform vocal acrobatics. It's not necessary most of the time, but when it does happen it's magical. I can say that the only time I ever use my own range to the fullest is when I'm singing Tim Buckley, originals, or when I want to sing very high in falsetto to mimic a female singer, that's it

And as far as falsetto goes, well, I know I have a very sweet sounding falsetto that I can sing in. I can sing "Corpus Christi Carol" and many My Brightest Diamond songs using a mixture of head voice and falsetto. I'm of the opinion that if you can exploit something while singing then it should be an accepted part of the voice. Most men DO NOT ever really concentrate on developing their falsetto because it sounds "girly". This is probably why falsetto is such a fiercely debated topic in the singing world. See my last post in this thread about Klaus Nomi addressing this issue.
Last edited by Simptom at Feb 8, 2010,
#105
That gunshot glitter sound you're talking about is whistle voice, which anyone can really use with a bit of training to get a good 2 more octaves on top. I wouldn't really count that with anyone as more than an extension of their voice, even with someone like Mariah Carrey

ps <3 My Brightest Diamond, I only have bring me the workhorse but I listen to that on a loop. Any more of her albums I should check out?
#106
Insult me then expect me to suggest an album do you?!

LOL Sure. She only has one other album called A Thousand Shark's Teeth which is admittedly a more mature effort.

I have a download only promotional (which was a free download with a code and was not meant to be sold; no piracy!) batch of songs, b-sides, too. I wouldn't mind sending them to you if you want to give me your email through a private message. I'm new here, so you can do that right? And come to think of it, I don't think I've even listened to them yet and I love her music...

By the way, I think Shara Worden may be in the midst of recording a new album as well.
Last edited by Simptom at Feb 8, 2010,
#107
I'd never try to insult you babe <3

And cheers, I'll check that out.
I always figured she was more of an underground artist but she seems to be doing pretty well, even saw a couple of MBD vids on TV (late night, but still). almost 3 million plays on last.fm too, surprised I haven't met more people that have heard her.
#108
Another thing to consider is tonality, though. While I agree that range should be defined by what notes are usable, this only goes so far. By this argument, using a weak falsetto, pretty much everyone could have a three octave range with no training, albeit likely with a massive break somewhere. Corpus Christi Carol isn't that difficult to sing, but it's difficult to get the same ringing tonality that Buckley did. The argument is almost never about whether pitches can be produced, but rather are they being produced in a voice that's well connected and rich?
#109
im still not convinced with the whole size vs vocal pitch. i mean, sure bigger people tend to be baritones, but bartiones out number tenors like 8 to 1. so paying the odds, a taller person will most likely be a baritone. i dont think that proves anything though. considering average height is around 5'9'', i dont think size has much to do with vocals. there are more baritones regardless of height. unless we are talking like over 7 feet or something. im sure at some point size will play a role, but there are plenty of average size baritones out there. im sure there are tall/large tenors as well. they may be harder to find because....well tenors are harder to find period.
#110
Quote by Blind In 1 Ear
im still not convinced with the whole size vs vocal pitch. i mean, sure bigger people tend to be baritones, but bartiones out number tenors like 8 to 1. so paying the odds, a taller person will most likely be a baritone. i dont think that proves anything though. considering average height is around 5'9'', i dont think size has much to do with vocals. there are more baritones regardless of height. unless we are talking like over 7 feet or something. im sure at some point size will play a role, but there are plenty of average size baritones out there. im sure there are tall/large tenors as well. they may be harder to find because....well tenors are harder to find period.


I don't think there's much of a correlation. I know this is anecdotal, but I have a friend who is 6'6", and he's a full fledged tenor. I'm just under 5'9", and I have pretty much the deepest speaking voice on the planet. It just differs from person to person.
#111
Yeah I don't think there's much of a correlation at all.
I mean I'm barely 5'8 and a tenor but I know plenty of people my size or shorter with really deep voices, and there are fairly tall people out there who are at the ridiculously high end of the tenor range.

I reckon there might be more correlation with something like the width of your bones, every tall guy I've met with a really high voice has been skinny, not just gut-wise but actually having a skinny frame from genetics.
#112
Quote by Cheeseman07
Yeah I don't think there's much of a correlation at all.
I mean I'm barely 5'8 and a tenor but I know plenty of people my size or shorter with really deep voices, and there are fairly tall people out there who are at the ridiculously high end of the tenor range.

I reckon there might be more correlation with something like the width of your bones, every tall guy I've met with a really high voice has been skinny, not just gut-wise but actually having a skinny frame from genetics.


Hmm, I don't even know about that. I've got a really slim frame. I wear small shirts and size 29w pants. Some people just have big, thick cords, other people have delicate ones. I guess this might also be why I can thrash my voice around quite a bit without having a lasting effect for more than an hour or so.
#113
Yeah I didn't mean that there's a noticeable connection there, just that there's probably more of one there than the whole height vs voice type thing.
#114
Quote by Simptom
Several things I'd like to address Axemanchris:

As far as stringed instruments go... Think to yourself why violin takes precedence over things like cello and bass when it comes to orchestral leads or solos. ...


I think it is just compositional choice. Consider this. You're playing chords on the piano around middle C. Where will you put the melody? On TOP of the chords, right? Now consider that guitar is the primary instrument in rock music. Where will you put the melody? On TOP of the chords, right?

Quote by Simptom


...Many critics will agree that to be a professional singer a minimum range of about 3 octaves is necessary to separate oneself from the rest of the herd. However, there are many exceptions to this rule!


Historically, a composer would write a piece that required a vocal. Then he needs to find someone to perform it. He would then look at the range of notes required and say, "I need a tenor!" By way of sorting into useful ranges, the composer knew that a baritone would not be an appropriate choice for a piece that required a high Bb or a high C. Why? Because that's tenor territory.

Sure, maybe a baritone could hit those notes in falsetto, but the composers typically didn't want that. If they wanted falsetto, they would ask for it. If they want a robust high C, they'll demand a tenor.

Now, about those classifications... you'll notice that virtually every source out there defines those classifications according to two octave ranges. Why? Because SO few people have three octaves that there is no point in defining those classifications beyond two octaves.

For similar reasons, composers, knowing the limitations of the human voice, would very very rarely compose a vocal part that extended beyond two octaves. Sure, there are exceptions, like that one opera of Mozart's that called for a high F above tenor C (which ironically cannot be sung properly by any tenors... give them a listen, and they're all in falsetto).

Quote by Simptom

A baritone hitting a high C is still a baritone. A baritone that can do this would only be adjusting accordingly to the vocal fach of a tenor. See heldontenors or dramatic tenors for this.


Making the obvious point that helden tenors and dramatic tenors and spinto tenors are not baritones, and should therefore be able to hit the high C.

Quote by Simptom

So you're telling me that the A fretted on the low E string of the guitar has the same EXACT tonal quality as the open A on the next string down?


However, this makes necessary the supposition that a baritone can sing beyond a baritone range. A more accurate analogy would be taking a bass guitar and playing the 12th fret harmonic on the G string and comparing it to the open G on a guitar. Of course they'll tonally sound very different, but it doesn't change the fact that the bass guitar can't *really* play that G without resorting to artificial means.

Quote by Simptom

Freddie did have a 5 octave range, and so did Tim Buckley,


Proof time. Can you find recordings that demonstrate this?

Quote by Simptom

both of which, as in describing my 4+ octave range,


... which only leads me to doubt you further. People do not have that kind of range except when producing their voices by artificial means.

Quote by Simptom

I wish I had some digital recording gear because I'd love to demo my range for you Axe.


I would love to hear it too.

Quote by Simptom

I have about an octave to an octave and half off the low E string on the guitar


So you sing a full octave below a standard bass - or in other words, you can sing well below the bottom string of a bass guitar.... already pretty superhuman....

Quote by Simptom

downwards and can sing up to falsetto on about the 16th to 18th fret (remember, about an octave of that is falsetto) on the high E string.


Ah! So *without* falsetto, you sing to the A below the tenor C. Falsetto does not count in defining range. See above for explanation.

Quote by Simptom

I was watching a clip of Show Boat and jokingly sang a deep bass mimicking the singer of the song "Old Man River" much to her laughter.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh9WayN7R-s - This recording shows a pretty typical bass range. It seems to go from the Bb below bass C (a tritone below the lowest string of the guitar) to the D above middle C. That is two octaves plus a major third. Pretty securely within the range of many bass singers, I would say. And you can sing an octave below *that*?

Quote by Simptom

Then, we listened to Ella Fitzgerald's "Summer Time" and I was able to sing her parts in a mixed and falsetto voice, MATCHING all the notes both singers had sung.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j6avX7ebkM - Pretty standard range for an alto. A quick listen showed the highest note was around a D and the lowest note about an octave below middle C. That's two octaves and a major second, or pretty much a textbook alto.

Now it makes sense, given that your voice *really* tops out around the A that you would need to go into falsetto in order to get up to that D. But remember, for the purposes of defining range, people are referring to your natural range, and thus does not include artificial vocal effects such as falsetto.

Quote by Simptom

Needless to say she was thoroughly impressed. Call me a light baritone/countertenor if you will, doesn't matter to me. This is possible!


A lyric baritone is a baritone that can sing slightly beyond the baritone G and whose strength is most vibrant in the upper part of their register. That sounds like it might be you.

Mind you, there's that issue that you beat out pretty much any bass on the planet for low register....

Quote by Simptom

I have nothing to prove and no reason to lie on a fricking internet forum just to feel special. I can understand the skepticism, but this is not the case for me.


Accusing you of lying would suggest that you are deliberately distorting the truth. My guess is that it is more an erronious/misapplied means of measuring range on your part.

Quote by Simptom

Kurt Cobain's softer/higher side to give you an idea. And yes, he had to have been in between voice types as his voice was way too light compared to your classic baritone like Eddie Veddar


Yes, his timbre was different. That doesn't make him a tenor. You can't call yourself a tenor when you start croaking and squawking even before you've exhausted the traditional *baritone* range.

Quote by Simptom

As far as the vocal damage, yes, I have identified the problem and hopefully fixed it. I was singing for way too long at nearly 6 hours a day in way too high a register singing at nearly a very very light tenor register. I developed vocal cord nodules and couldn't sing for 9 months. It was hell. But I really only ran into problems originally when I was recording a few years back and was having a rough time with my band mate. I was trying to prove to him I wanted to play with him (he thought at the time my temperamental voice was an excuse to hold us both back musically) by singing through the worst bout of laryngitis I've ever had in my life. Not to mention I had severe tonsillitis during this time and had to get a tonsillectomy that summer and that I was just diagnosed with GERD! Fun right? I even had to go through extreme dietary changes for singing, but it's worth it.


I think your problem was also related to this...
From that point on I really began pushing my voice


Quote by Simptom

I want to add Axeman, no hard feelings here.


None taken. Thanks!

Quote by Simptom

I've had some formal training and have done a lot of research on the topic of vocal health and training. This is where I'm coming from.


I studied for ten years with a tenor who was with the Metropolitan Opera. That is where I'm coming from.

Quote by Simptom

P.S. There's one last thing I'd like to add. For those of you who think that falsetto is not a true representation of range and that when people include this they are padding their own purported range I say to you, you are wrong! It's called mixed head voice baby!


Call it what you want, but traditionally, when the composer asked for a tenor, he wanted a tenor - not a baritone with a mixed head voice.

Quote by Simptom

Many people out there are able to meld the top end of their register with falsetto. This takes training to learn, but it is possible.


Yes, it is difficult, but very possible. Some people get very very good at it.

Quote by Simptom

I personally do not agree with anyone saying some one singing in mixed head voice is singing in falsetto.


True again. Mixed head voice or whatever you want to call it can disguise itself pretty convincingly for a while as one's natural voice. However, the farther across the bridge you go, the more obvious it is that it is more falsetto than anything else. The ears are the final judge, IMHO.

Quote by Simptom

It's funny how people seem to make exceptions and accept that falsetto is a real part of one person's range and others not. Fans of Mariah Carey love to say she has a 5 octave voice. Well, I know for a fact women do possess a falsetto and that those notes she hits in whistle register are falsetto, not her chest or head register or is the result of at least a very well blended head voice. So I think it should be accepted that falsetto is a natural extension of a person's accepted range.


Or more correctly, it should be said that she does NOT have a five octave range. Nobody does.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#115
Methinks I just got schooled by the Axeman.

I concede to you my friend.

Once you guessed that high A I thought, "Oh ****, he knows his shit." LOL Full voice, and this sucks, I can hit something like A# or B, no joke, but I can't hit that god damned C without going into a mixed voice. Sucks eh? As far as singing downward, I can get pretty low (some vocal fry accounts for the off the low E string, as I did admit earlier). Misinformed I may supposedly be, I have trailed through the keys on a piano before, numerous times, and my natural range is well over 3 in full voice as I said, something like 3.5, 4.5 with falsetto. I'm being truthful here.

Oh, I found this! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baritone#Lyric_Low_Baritone.2FLyric_Bass-baritone . According to that picture on the right and from what I can remember where the keys I sang were, I can sing bass through tenor. Tack on a couple more bass notes and bass through tenor on that scale is where I lay to give you an idea of my range from where I remember. I can go somewhere past that low C that is NOT highlighted for bass to a tenor B without going into falsetto! I know that for sure. See, 3+ octaves!

On a side note, one of my best friends is a deep bass actually, and I can't hit some really low notes that he can hit. He has a very rich deep bass voice. I don't know if anyone here has been around a natural deep bass or not, but man, they can blow you away with their power.

Quick question, I've always felt that I was always in between fachs and it seems a lyric baritone may fall somewhere into this. Can you not agree that voices vary and that outside classical singing there are people who are very much in between baritone and tenor fachs? I'm speaking solely of being in between your run of the mill classic baritones (Eddie Vedar, Jim Morrison) and tenors (Thom Yorke, Jeff Buckley).

One point I'd like to add that Axeman has addressed from my posts many times. He says that a baritone should not try to sing tenor and that my admission of my past voice difficulties speak for this. I agree that unless you know what the hell you're doing, to try to avoid doing what I did. I have been obsessed with increasing my range since I can remember and I started singing at a younger age, which, despite what people may think, did account for my retaining a light baritone voice. I can say though, that had I not pushed my voice I probably would not have the range I have today.

Just like the screamers and hair metal guys will always tell you (though I think pushing range is much less injurious than screaming), you have to be willing to push your voice sometimes at the risk of potential injury. I am not outright condoning this as I would also never tell someone, especially a baritone to sing the way I do as I know it would take a very specific voice type to mimic the way I sing to avoid injury. It's now only years after trial, error, tons of reading, formal instruction and coaching that have I been able to finally sing properly while increasing my range and pushing my voice. It was a lot of hard work, training, and a serious depression from not being able to sing when I was injured that one time. I would not want anyone else to experience what I went through. I did a lot of research on vocal health as I said as a result of my experiences.

To get back on topic though... I am covetous of natural tenors' voices. They just sound more beautiful to me and I wish I wasn't stuck with this in between, just-short-of-a-tenor range. The only advantage I have is that I have a significant more amount of weight and power behind my voice than your run of the mill tenor, but it still doesn't make up for it in my mind.

Tenors are just so versatile, a nice one would be able to cross into alto range easily and be able to sing higher baritone parts. It's the best of both worlds and it's just not fair! I mean look at all popular music such as rock, awful corporate produced pop, and virtually any type of modern day music from the 1960's onward; tenors rule the field! I mean sure, there are your exceptions, but I am convinced that baritones have to work much harder to develop a certain distinct style and vocal progression and have more range than your average singer in order to just compete against tenors. :P

For the record, you seem like a pretty cool guy Axeman, I've enjoyed this conversation. And remember, I never once said that I was a tenor!
Last edited by Simptom at Feb 11, 2010,
#116
Quote by Simptom

Full voice, and this sucks, I can hit something like A# or B, no joke, but I can't hit that god damned C without going into a mixed voice. Sucks eh?


One of the things you need to do as a singer is to recognize the strengths and limitations of your voice and learn to accentuate your strengths. Also, you need to accept and be happy with what you have as you make the best of it.

So you can't hit tenor C. So what? neither can most of us. A lot of people still call themselves tenors who top out at the B or thereabouts, but any lower than that is really pushing it.

Quote by Simptom

Oh, I found this! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baritone#Lyric_Low_Baritone.2FLyric_Bass-baritone . According to that picture on the right


Notice this, too.... the keyboard diagram shows the range for baritone as being from G to E. The staff notation diagram shows it going from G to F#. Traditionally, ranges are defined within two octaves. Another spot on wikipedia actually agrees with my instructor as being from G to G. With many contributors with different experiences and opinions, there are bound to be some conflicts.

The discrepancy between the bass and tenor range definitions are similar. Go figure.

Quote by Simptom

and from what I can remember where the keys I sang were, I can sing bass through tenor. Tack on a couple more bass notes and bass through tenor on that scale is where I lay to give you an idea of my range from where I remember. I can go somewhere past that low C that is NOT highlighted for bass to a tenor B without going into falsetto! I know that for sure. See, 3+ octaves!


Actually, that C for the bass should be highlighted. See above.

Assuming you can sing Old Man River as you say you can (without any artificial effects such as fry), and sing up to the A (as you said above), that is roughly three octaves.

Still extraordinary, but subject to evaluation as to how *well* you can actually sing those bass notes or those higher notes.

Quote by Simptom

On a side note, one of my best friends is a deep bass actually, and I can't hit some really low notes that he can hit. He has a very rich deep bass voice. I don't know if anyone here has been around a natural deep bass or not, but man, they can blow you away with their power.


Yes, one of the things that separate a true bass from a baritone who can swallow a low E and croak it out with a tone that is wobbly at best.

By extension, the same comparison can be made between a tenor and a baritone. Whereas a baritone might pretty much scream out a high B or C, squeezing and squawking it out, a tenor will be able to *sing* that note.


Quick question, I've always felt that I was always in between fachs and it seems a lyric baritone may fall somewhere into this. Can you not agree that voices vary and that outside classical singing there are people who are very much in between baritone and tenor fachs? I'm speaking solely of being in between your run of the mill classic baritones (Eddie Vedar, Jim Morrison) and tenors (Thom Yorke, Jeff Buckley).

The answer is yes, both traditionally and within popular music. (because in pop music, classification is a matter of academics more than it is of practicality.) I have one of those "in between" voices.

Basically I'm a baritone, but I can sing a good strong high A on most days, and depending on the day and the context can kinda hit the B just below tenor C. A "lyric baritone" is a baritone whose strength and resonance shine most in the upper part of their range, and who can usually sing somewhat above the traditional upper boundary for baritone singers. That's me, and by the sounds of things, that is what you're asking about. I can't, however, in good conscience call myself a tenor.

There are tenor labels that do also apply to this kind of range. In choral music, the demands placed on tenors are less than the demands that an operatic role places on a tenor, and as a result, a tenor is a chorus is rarely asked to sing that high. If you can get the A or Bb, you can sing most tenor choral parts. Thus, the label "choral tenor" can be applied.

There is also a label sometimes used called a "pop tenor." In most pop music, you are rarely asked to sing up to a high C, and can often get away with topping out around an A or so also - much like the choral tenor. Given the elitist tendencies of the operatic community, though, I feel that this label has a tinge of derisiveness to it.

Quote by Simptom

One point I'd like to add that Axeman has addressed from my posts many times. He says that a baritone should not try to sing tenor


Here's another analogy.... sure, maybe a baritone *can* kinda sorta sqawk out or mixed head-voice/falsetto squeak out a high C. The difference in tone between that and a true tenor is really night and day. So, this would be analogous to the notion of "sure, you *could* drive a screw in with a hammer, but why the hell would you do that when you could just go get a screwdriver and do it properly?"

Quote by Simptom

and that my admission of my past voice difficulties speak for this. I agree that unless you know what the hell you're doing, to try to avoid doing what I did. I have been obsessed with increasing my range since I can remember


This is important. The number one culprit for shooting out your voice (aside from doing it deliberately, I suppose) is trying to get more out of it than what is there.

Quote by Simptom

To get back on topic though... I am covetous of natural tenors' voices. They just sound more beautiful to me and I wish I wasn't stuck with this in between, just-short-of-a-tenor range. The only advantage I have is that I have a significant more amount of weight and power behind my voice than your run of the mill tenor, but it still doesn't make up for it in my mind.


Don't sweat it. Seriously. Your range is independent of your agility, expressiveness, tone, etc. Learn what your strengths are and play to them. Who cares if you can apply a particular "badge" to it? Your listeners sure won't. They just care whether you sound good.

Quote by Simptom

I mean look at all popular music such as rock, awful corporate produced pop, and virtually any type of modern day music from the 1960's onward; tenors rule the field!


In hair metal and other corporate rock genres, yes. But those genres come and go in and out of fashion. Throughout almost the whole 1990's, being a tenor was more of a curse than an advantage, because you ran the risk of making your band sound like a bunch of Bon Jovi wannabes.

Also, as one of those "in-between" voices, there is really very little that you can't sing. Just don't try to do Boston or Iron Maiden and you should be alright. Think of most of the biggest bands in the world right now, and with that kind of range, you can probably sing at least a good deal of their catalogue.

Because really.... there are *very* few men who can really belt out that high tenor C. You can sing 90% of the notes that any singer would ever sing.

Quote by Simptom

For the record, you seem like a pretty cool guy Axeman, I've enjoyed this conversation. And remember, I never once said that I was a tenor!


You too. I quite agree on what you have to say in the bits that I have read in some of the other threads (that I just haven't had a chance to get to). I never took exception to you calling yourself a tenor. I took exception to assertions of people having ranges of 4 and 5 octaves.

I guess what is instructional here, too, is that there is a way to expand your range, but it is not pushing and squeezing and squawking your voice in hopes that one day you'll be able to get there more easily. You'll just damage your voice.

The answer is to build strength, confidence and facility right through to the top of your *comfortable* range. As you strengthen that highest note (say the highest note you have today), then you will find that there will often be another one at the top that wasn't there before, but will not be quite as robust or secure. Then you build and strengthen that and so on.

As long as you are using good technique, this is a safe way to proceed.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#117
Weird.... a big long post and it was empty after I hit submit. Here it is again....

Quote by Simptom

Full voice, and this sucks, I can hit something like A# or B, no joke, but I can't hit that god damned C without going into a mixed voice. Sucks eh?


One of the things you need to do as a singer is to recognize the strengths and limitations of your voice and learn to accentuate your strengths. Also, you need to accept and be happy with what you have as you make the best of it.

So you can't hit tenor C. So what? neither can most of us. A lot of people still call themselves tenors who top out at the B or thereabouts, but any lower than that is really pushing it.

Quote by Simptom

Oh, I found this! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baritone#Lyric_Low_Baritone.2FLyric_Bass-baritone . According to that picture on the right


Notice this, too.... the keyboard diagram shows the range for baritone as being from G to E. The staff notation diagram shows it going from G to F#. Traditionally, ranges are defined within two octaves. Another spot on wikipedia actually agrees with my instructor as being from G to G. With many contributors with different experiences and opinions, there are bound to be some conflicts.

The discrepancy between the bass and tenor range definitions are similar. Go figure.

Quote by Simptom

and from what I can remember where the keys I sang were, I can sing bass through tenor. Tack on a couple more bass notes and bass through tenor on that scale is where I lay to give you an idea of my range from where I remember. I can go somewhere past that low C that is NOT highlighted for bass to a tenor B without going into falsetto! I know that for sure. See, 3+ octaves!


Actually, that C for the bass should be highlighted. See above.

Assuming you can sing Old Man River as you say you can (without any artificial effects such as fry), and sing up to the A (as you said above), that is roughly three octaves.

Still extraordinary, but subject to evaluation as to how *well* you can actually sing those bass notes or those higher notes.

Quote by Simptom

On a side note, one of my best friends is a deep bass actually, and I can't hit some really low notes that he can hit. He has a very rich deep bass voice. I don't know if anyone here has been around a natural deep bass or not, but man, they can blow you away with their power.


Yes, one of the things that separate a true bass from a baritone who can swallow a low E and croak it out with a tone that is wobbly at best.

By extension, the same comparison can be made between a tenor and a baritone. Whereas a baritone might pretty much scream out a high B or C, squeezing and squawking it out, a tenor will be able to *sing* that note.


Quick question, I've always felt that I was always in between fachs and it seems a lyric baritone may fall somewhere into this. Can you not agree that voices vary and that outside classical singing there are people who are very much in between baritone and tenor fachs? I'm speaking solely of being in between your run of the mill classic baritones (Eddie Vedar, Jim Morrison) and tenors (Thom Yorke, Jeff Buckley).

The answer is yes, both traditionally and within popular music. (because in pop music, classification is a matter of academics more than it is of practicality.) I have one of those "in between" voices.

Basically I'm a baritone, but I can sing a good strong high A on most days, and depending on the day and the context can kinda hit the B just below tenor C. A "lyric baritone" is a baritone whose strength and resonance shine most in the upper part of their range, and who can usually sing somewhat above the traditional upper boundary for baritone singers. That's me, and by the sounds of things, that is what you're asking about. I can't, however, in good conscience call myself a tenor.

There are tenor labels that do also apply to this kind of range. In choral music, the demands placed on tenors are less than the demands that an operatic role places on a tenor, and as a result, a tenor is a chorus is rarely asked to sing that high. If you can get the A or Bb, you can sing most tenor choral parts. Thus, the label "choral tenor" can be applied.

There is also a label sometimes used called a "pop tenor." In most pop music, you are rarely asked to sing up to a high C, and can often get away with topping out around an A or so also - much like the choral tenor. Given the elitist tendencies of the operatic community, though, I feel that this label has a tinge of derisiveness to it.

Quote by Simptom

One point I'd like to add that Axeman has addressed from my posts many times. He says that a baritone should not try to sing tenor


Here's another analogy.... sure, maybe a baritone *can* kinda sorta sqawk out or mixed head-voice/falsetto squeak out a high C. The difference in tone between that and a true tenor is really night and day. So, this would be analogous to the notion of "sure, you *could* drive a screw in with a hammer, but why the hell would you do that when you could just go get a screwdriver and do it properly?"

Quote by Simptom

and that my admission of my past voice difficulties speak for this. I agree that unless you know what the hell you're doing, to try to avoid doing what I did. I have been obsessed with increasing my range since I can remember


This is important. The number one culprit for shooting out your voice (aside from doing it deliberately, I suppose) is trying to get more out of it than what is there.

Quote by Simptom

To get back on topic though... I am covetous of natural tenors' voices. They just sound more beautiful to me and I wish I wasn't stuck with this in between, just-short-of-a-tenor range. The only advantage I have is that I have a significant more amount of weight and power behind my voice than your run of the mill tenor, but it still doesn't make up for it in my mind.


Don't sweat it. Seriously. Your range is independent of your agility, expressiveness, tone, etc. Learn what your strengths are and play to them. Who cares if you can apply a particular "badge" to it? Your listeners sure won't. They just care whether you sound good.

Quote by Simptom

I mean look at all popular music such as rock, awful corporate produced pop, and virtually any type of modern day music from the 1960's onward; tenors rule the field!


In hair metal and other corporate rock genres, yes. But those genres come and go in and out of fashion. Throughout almost the whole 1990's, being a tenor was more of a curse than an advantage, because you ran the risk of making your band sound like a bunch of Bon Jovi wannabes.

Also, as one of those "in-between" voices, there is really very little that you can't sing. Just don't try to do Boston or Iron Maiden and you should be alright. Think of most of the biggest bands in the world right now, and with that kind of range, you can probably sing at least a good deal of their catalogue.

Because really.... there are *very* few men who can really belt out that high tenor C. You can sing 90% of the notes that any singer would ever sing.

Quote by Simptom

For the record, you seem like a pretty cool guy Axeman, I've enjoyed this conversation. And remember, I never once said that I was a tenor!


You too. I quite agree on what you have to say in the bits that I have read in some of the other threads (that I just haven't had a chance to get to). I never took exception to you calling yourself a tenor. I took exception to assertions of people having ranges of 4 and 5 octaves.

I guess what is instructional here, too, is that there is a way to expand your range, but it is not pushing and squeezing and squawking your voice in hopes that one day you'll be able to get there more easily. You'll just damage your voice.

The answer is to build strength, confidence and facility right through to the top of your *comfortable* range. As you strengthen that highest note (say the highest note you have today), then you will find that there will often be another one at the top that wasn't there before, but will not be quite as robust or secure. Then you build and strengthen that and so on.

As long as you are using good technique, this is a safe way to proceed.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#118
whoah what just happened

I think you broke axemanchris
Last edited by Cheeseman07 at Feb 12, 2010,
#119
Weird.... a big long post and it was empty after I hit submit. Here it is again....

One of the things you need to do as a singer is to recognize the strengths and limitations of your voice and learn to accentuate your strengths. Also, you need to accept and be happy with what you have as you make the best of it.

So you can't hit tenor C. So what? neither can most of us. A lot of people still call themselves tenors who top out at the B or thereabouts, but any lower than that is really pushing it.

Notice this, too.... the keyboard diagram shows the range for baritone as being from G to E. The staff notation diagram shows it going from G to F#. Traditionally, ranges are defined within two octaves. Another spot on wikipedia actually agrees with my instructor as being from G to G. With many contributors with different experiences and opinions, there are bound to be some conflicts.

The discrepancy between the bass and tenor range definitions are similar. Go figure.

Actually, that C for the bass should be highlighted. See above.

Assuming you can sing Old Man River as you say you can (without any artificial effects such as fry), and sing up to the A (as you said above), that is roughly three octaves.

Still extraordinary, but subject to evaluation as to how *well* you can actually sing those bass notes or those higher notes.

Yes, one of the things that separate a true bass from a baritone who can swallow a low E and croak it out with a tone that is wobbly at best.

By extension, the same comparison can be made between a tenor and a baritone. Whereas a baritone might pretty much scream out a high B or C, squeezing and squawking it out, a tenor will be able to *sing* that note.


Quick question, I've always felt that I was always in between fachs and it seems a lyric baritone may fall somewhere into this. Can you not agree that voices vary and that outside classical singing there are people who are very much in between baritone and tenor fachs? I'm speaking solely of being in between your run of the mill classic baritones (Eddie Vedar, Jim Morrison) and tenors (Thom Yorke, Jeff Buckley).

The answer is yes, both traditionally and within popular music. (because in pop music, classification is a matter of academics more than it is of practicality.) I have one of those "in between" voices.

Basically I'm a baritone, but I can sing a good strong high A on most days, and depending on the day and the context can kinda hit the B just below tenor C. A "lyric baritone" is a baritone whose strength and resonance shine most in the upper part of their range, and who can usually sing somewhat above the traditional upper boundary for baritone singers. That's me, and by the sounds of things, that is what you're asking about. I can't, however, in good conscience call myself a tenor.

There are tenor labels that do also apply to this kind of range. In choral music, the demands placed on tenors are less than the demands that an operatic role places on a tenor, and as a result, a tenor is a chorus is rarely asked to sing that high. If you can get the A or Bb, you can sing most tenor choral parts. Thus, the label "choral tenor" can be applied.

There is also a label sometimes used called a "pop tenor." In most pop music, you are rarely asked to sing up to a high C, and can often get away with topping out around an A or so also - much like the choral tenor. Given the elitist tendencies of the operatic community, though, I feel that this label has a tinge of derisiveness to it.

Here's another analogy.... sure, maybe a baritone *can* kinda sorta sqawk out or mixed head-voice/falsetto squeak out a high C. The difference in tone between that and a true tenor is really night and day. So, this would be analogous to the notion of "sure, you *could* drive a screw in with a hammer, but why the hell would you do that when you could just go get a screwdriver and do it properly?"

This is important. The number one culprit for shooting out your voice (aside from doing it deliberately, I suppose) is trying to get more out of it than what is there.

Don't sweat it. Seriously. Your range is independent of your agility, expressiveness, tone, etc. Learn what your strengths are and play to them. Who cares if you can apply a particular "badge" to it? Your listeners sure won't. They just care whether you sound good.

In hair metal and other corporate rock genres, yes. But those genres come and go in and out of fashion. Throughout almost the whole 1990's, being a tenor was more of a curse than an advantage, because you ran the risk of making your band sound like a bunch of Bon Jovi wannabes.

Also, as one of those "in-between" voices, there is really very little that you can't sing. Just don't try to do Boston or Iron Maiden and you should be alright. Think of most of the biggest bands in the world right now, and with that kind of range, you can probably sing at least a good deal of their catalogue.

Because really.... there are *very* few men who can really belt out that high tenor C. You can sing 90% of the notes that any singer would ever sing.

You too. I quite agree on what you have to say in the bits that I have read in some of the other threads (that I just haven't had a chance to get to). I never took exception to you calling yourself a tenor. I took exception to assertions of people having ranges of 4 and 5 octaves.

I guess what is instructional here, too, is that there is a way to expand your range, but it is not pushing and squeezing and squawking your voice in hopes that one day you'll be able to get there more easily. You'll just damage your voice.

The answer is to build strength, confidence and facility right through to the top of your *comfortable* range. As you strengthen that highest note (say the highest note you have today), then you will find that there will often be another one at the top that wasn't there before, but will not be quite as robust or secure. Then you build and strengthen that and so on.

As long as you are using good technique, this is a safe way to proceed.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#120
This is weird....

I view my profile, and the beginning of my post is there.

I click edit and my post is there.

I click quote and my post is there.

By all surface appearances, my post is not there - even when I try to copy and paste it into another reply.

??

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.