#2
a scale is in the key of its root note. a mode is not
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#3
is that the only difference? so the locrian mode in g is just the locrian pattern using the g major scale
#4
a scale is a series of notes (in western music generally 7) that can be used to create melodies in a key. eg, an A minor scale contains notes from the Am key.

modes are, how i like to put it, a key within a key to create dissonance while soloing. if you play in the same key, you are playing in an ionian mode (or if its a minor key, aeolian mode). by playing a D major scale over a progression in the key of C, you would effectively be playing in C locrian mode.

tldr: scales are a series of notes used to solo, modes are HOW you use those notes over a progression or key.
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#5
well modes are still scales i believe, but they are a weaker type of scale. a major or minor scale is strong and doesnt depend on the backing progression or chord/pedal tone to determine the type of scale it is. you could play the major or minor scale by itself and its heard as the major or minor scale. however, if you played the D dorian scale for example, without a backing, its hard to say if its actually the dorian or not. it could be C major, or G mixolydian too for example. whats going on behind the mode determines what the mode is. the modes depend more on the root note or progression than a regular scale does. so i could be play in C major for example and then switch the progression to go from say E to F back and forth. this would imply an E phrygian progression and not C major, but they are the same notes.

so i guess in short, the modes depend on the root note a lot more than a major or minor scale does. the background music is what determines a mode. at least thats what ive come to understand.
#7
A scale is a specific step pattern in a certain order. The modes are different ways that same step pattern can be used to create a unique set of notes by placing the same root note on a different starting point.

Or something kind of like that.

Major scale = W W H W W W H (Also known as the first mode of the major scale)

the second mode of the major scale is W H W W W H W
The third mode of the major scale is H W W W H W W etc etc

In each of these cases the "parent scale" of each mode is the major scale.


Melodic Minor scale = W H W W W W H (this is the first mode of the melodic minor scale)

the second mode of the melodic minor scale is H W W W W H W
the third mode of the melodic minor scale is W W W W H W H etc etc

The parent scale for each of these modes is the melodic minor scale.

The Whole-Half scale is W H W H W H W H this is one of two modes of this scale.
The other is H W H W H W H W. There are only two modes of this scale.

Confused yet?
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#9
It's all about the background notes (backing track).
Last edited by sergiu at Nov 4, 2009,
#10
modes are like a "family" of scales linked together by the major scale they relate to, however they're still scales in their own right.
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#11
The modes are related to the major scales. All they do is change what the tonic note is.

So like D Dorian is the exact same notes that are in the C major scale, you are just starting on D instead of C, making D the new tonic or Final(mode speak for tonic)
#14
Take a major scale, for example C: C D E F G A B C

The intervals in that scale are W W H W W W H

Now start on D, but use the same key signature as the key of C, you now have: D E F G A B C D

The intervals in that are W H W W W H W

That is a D Dorian, or if you start on a G, you will get a G Mixolydian mode: G A B C D E F G

Intervals: W W H W W H W

Its really just going up a scale, but from a different starting point, giving you different intervals, which makes it sound different.
Thats the way I think about it. I hope it helps.
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#15
Quote by TK1

modes are, how i like to put it, a key within a key to create dissonance while soloing. if you play in the same key, you are playing in an ionian mode (or if its a minor key, aeolian mode). by playing a D major scale over a progression in the key of C, you would effectively be playing in C locrian mode.
.


No This is incorrect - it is Db Major that is relative to C Locrian, not D. The quote is nonsensical - if you want to create dissonance - voila - that's achieved by simply playing Db Major, or D major over a progression in C - nothing to do with modes.

I just point this out because there is a teaching link on this post - and you may want to delete it (the post of the quote, that is) as it can cause needless confusion. then this too can be deleted.
#16
is it just me or have there been an unusual amount of necros lately?
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#17
Modes are scales. Modes are created altering different scale degrees. Each key has a certain kind of mode starting on each scale degree. Some modes have multiple names.

Key of C:

C Ionian (major scale): C D E F G A B C
D dorian: D E F G A B C D
E Phrygian: E F G A B C D E
F Lydian: F G A B C D E
G mixolydian: G A B C D E F G
A Aeolian (natural minor scale): A B C D E F G A
B Locrian: B C D E F G A B

etc.

Each mode has a particular formula of whole and half steps that create it.

Each Mode has an underlying 'mood' (minor or major) but each has its own distinctive flavour and work well over different kinds of extended harmonies.

ex: Dorian and Aeolian are both minor modes, but Dorian is a little bit brighter because of the F#

Aeolian: A B C D E F G

Dorian: A B C D E F# G

if we take say a chord like Am A C E, we can see both of these scales can create that chord however, the dorian mode can create a Ami6 chord A C E F# as well as a Ami7 chord A C E G so if you were to run into an Ami6 chord in a song, you would likely use an A dorian scale rather than an A aeolian scale because the F in aeolian will clash with the F# in the chord.

if we compared the different modes to the major and minor scales keeping the same root and comparing them all to the major scale (alterations to scale degrees are in brackets)

'Major' Modes
Lydian (#4) C D E F# G A B C --> Key of G
Ionian (none) C D E F G A B C --> key of C
Mixolydian (b7)

'Minor' Modes
Dorian (b3 b 7)
Aeolian (b3 b6 b7)
Phrygian (b2, b3 b6 b7)
Locrian (b2,b3 b5 b6 b7) (creates a diminished chord) Cb Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb --> Key of Db

each mode belongs to a key, and all modes are scales, in addition all scales are modes. However, there are only 12 'keys' (C F Bb etc.) and every mode ive listed fits into one.There are some that do not because they were based of scales that do not fit into key signatures ex modes of a melodic minor scale

C D Eb F G Ab Bb C --- natural minor (3 flats)

C D Eb F G A B C --> melodic minor, this would be used over a different harmony than the above because it doesnt fit into one standard key center.

I could then reorder these notes and create a new set of modes ex starting on the 4th degree

F G A B C D Eb F --> Lydian b7 (melodic minor)---> used for: Dominant chords with a #11 extension
F G A B C D E F --> Lydian ---> used for: Major chords with a #11 extension
F G A Bb C D E F --> Mixolydian ---> used for: Dominant chords without a #11 extension
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#18
Quote by British_Steal
Each Mode has an underlying 'mood' (minor or major) but each has its own distinctive flavour and work well over different kinds of extended harmonies.


what in the hell

iirc i usually agree with you but i'm just flabbergasted with the levels of what here

what

that's like saying the major scale is inherently happy and the minor is inherently sad

or that we're restricted to 7 tones at any given time in order to support a functional level of resolution to make music tonal or something
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#19
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#20
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what in the hell

iirc i usually agree with you but i'm just flabbergasted with the levels of what here

what

that's like saying the major scale is inherently happy and the minor is inherently sad

or that we're restricted to 7 tones at any given time in order to support a functional level of resolution to make music tonal or something


Well what I mean is the mode either has a b3 (minor 3rd) or a regular 3 (major 3rd) so each one is essentially going to work over either major triad or minor triads (diminished in the case of Locrian) at the bare bones level.

Its not that were 'restricted' by any means, its just that certain modes tend to work better over certain chords, because they contain the notes of that chord. thats the theory of it as I understand it.

Let me explain

the bare bones of a C dominant chord, root, 3rd and 7th: C E Bb will be my example chord, each mode is going create a different chord as I keep adding extensions.

C mixolydian: C D E F G A Bb C
- C9- D
- C13 (natural 11s arent really used as extensions)- A

C Lydian b7: C D E F# G Bb C
- C7(b5) -F# enharmonic to Gb
- C9 -D
- C9(#11) -D and F#
- C13 (with or without #11) -D F# and A

C phrygian dominant: C Db E F G Ab Bb C
- C7 (b9) -Db
- C7 (b13 or a b9 or both) -Db and Ab

C Symmetrical dominant: C Db D# E F Gb G# A Bb C
- C7 (b5 or #5 or both no natural 5, #9 or b9 or both, #11 (same as b5) natural 13) -Gb G#, Db D#, A

C altered: C Db Eb Fb (E natural) Gb Ab Bb C
- C7 ( b5 [no #5], b9 #9, #11(same as 5b), b13) - Gb, Db D#, F#(enharmonic Gb), Ab

so say for a C7(b9 b13) chord, I could use any scale that had those extensions in it but with all these scales I can still spell out that basic dominant chord structure (C E Bb)

Im sorry I made this so complicated guys
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#21
Quote by British_Steal
Well what I mean is the mode either has a b3 (minor 3rd) or a regular 3 (major 3rd) so each one is essentially going to work over either major or minor chords at the bare bones level.

Its not that were 'restricted' by any means, its just that certain modes tend to work better over certain chords, because they contain the notes of that chord. thats the theory of it as I understand it.


there are only 12 notes to choose from - once you have a chord, or a series of chords, you have a series of notes that will function over them in such a way as to be consonant

an example would be playing the 5th over, say, a D7 chord

but when you say that certain scales work "better" over a chord, you're setting up a boundary because those 7 notes are either consonant or dissonant and writes off the other 5 notes

modes are good to introduce accidentals - you wouldn't play a D major scale over a D7 because the M7 will be dissonant, so you have D "mixolydian" - but if you embrace modes as a method of abdicating diatonicism for a certain "flavor", you're looking at the series of notes rather than just the 12 tones functionally over a given note/chord/progression

at what point does that series of scales cease to satisfy your harmonic palate, and at what point do you consider them when you're creating the harmony you're playing over?

when i focused on scales/modes, it became a method of auto-filing note choice rather than thinking in sounds/themes, which in term affected my phrasing, rhythm, understanding of dynamics, et al within the confines of any given piece.

once you understand that there's only 12 notes, and understand their function in conjunction with other elements of the piece, you shouldn't need to be thinking of note choice much in the first place unless you're translating a thought from your head or instrument to sheet music/tablature/another person. composition, while undeniably an academic affair, needs to be accepted as a method of artistic expression beyond numerical values, and is certainly not static. i really love how xiaoxi put it at one point or another, "music is not vertical, but horizontal"

for the sake of simplicity, say we're just approaching that D7 chord

the obvious notes are 1, M3, P5, m7

in the scale that comes to mind, that would be 1, 2, M3, P4, P5, M6, m7

however, it's important to remember that you have access to the b2, m3, 5-, m6, or M7. the simplest and most easy to integrate example would be chromaticism - step-wise motion is easy to squeeze between holes in a box. you get a "flavor" from that type of movement

it's obvious why you don't use them, the b2 and M7 destabilize the tonic, the m3 turns off the M3, the tritone can destabilize the tonic, etc. and it makes tons of sense to know "i like these 7 notes, these will be what i use outside of little bits and pieces cause other than these it'll sound nasty/dissonant"

but music doesn't stay in one place. it's constantly moving, and evolving, and i'm not commenting on your merit, but diatonicism is incredibly crippling to a lot of musicians, just like scale shapes, modes - anything that puts up barriers.

you want to touch on this stuff as you're teaching someone, or as you're learning, even, but all students need to learn that music is an experimental process, and by extension, the fact that they need to learn to be self-sufficient, and that everything is gray area in music.

there's no "right" way to paint, or cook, or think. there are conventions that need to be understood, but beyond that, people need to learn to teach themselves rather than rely on another person to be expressive and self-sufficient, and every time a 15-year-old bedroom guitarist that knows nothing beyond "i want to be great" hears "this is what you need to do", it's another rut in their knowledge that will ultimately hinder them. this is why i get really douchy about modes/scales.

if you've got someone on a stable curriculum and you're teaching them "this is how we're learning now, but this isn't permanent - you'll learn to not rely on anyone or anything but yourself and your ear one day, i'm just here to assist you, not to pigeon-hole you", teach them everything under the rainbow that i complain about, but most people here are either poorly versed in music, or self-taught.

like the flavors thing, it's in the motion, the timbre, the tempo, not how the song resolves. knowing the resolution doesn't even necessarily help your "average" musician when compared to other analytic practices (like how i gush over ear training)

i was probably really abrasive in the first post but i forget there are only like 3 people here who might know my opinions on music/theory/teaching, as much as i ramble about it. i'd probably cut this post way down or at least make it more concise, but OP hasn't been on almost a year anyway
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#22
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is it just me or have there been an unusual amount of necros lately?


Agreed. There can only be one logical conclusion. Apparently the evil capitalist overlords that make their fortune from the spread of misinformation on modes have caught wind of MT's attempts to sort out said misinformation and so have secretly hired mercenaries to track each of us down and eliminate our voice of dissension.

What we are witnessing is an attempt to flush out each of us by necro bumping every thread on modes there is so as to coax us out of anonymity by replying. Don't fall for it my brethren. IT'S A TRAP!!!
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#23
y'all necro'd the shit out of this thread
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#26
i love you guys so much

and i brought up chromaticism TYVM GRIFFINBOI
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