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#1
i noticed that the scales G major and A minor pentatonic have the same notes in them but the relative minor of G major is E minor

im confused as to how A minor pentatonic and G major relate to each other, can anyone point me in the right direction?
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#2
Congratulations, you've taken your first leap in understanding modes!
(YAY!!)

Basically, the A natural minor scale is just the G major scale played starting from the 6th (VI) degree in the scale, and ending an octave higher.

They're are plenty of 'introduction to modes' lessons (some probably on UG) take a look at them for more info!
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#4
thanks alot! i had a feeling it had something to do with modes
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#5
Quote by bellamy_morello
i noticed that the scales G major and A minor pentatonic have the same notes in them but the relative minor of G major is E minor

im confused as to how A minor pentatonic and G major relate to each other, can anyone point me in the right direction?



because Gmajor is diatonic meaning it is a 7 note scale and Aminor pent is pentatonic meaning it only has 5 notes

if you where to compare the Aminor full diatonic scale to the G major you would notice that there is no F# in Aminor. where as Gmajor has an F#

the pent takes 5 of the notes from the Aminor scale. but not all seven.

however Eminor has the exact same notes as Gmajor including the F#.

Aminor has the same notes as Cmaj. NO sharps and no flats.
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#6
Quote by Doodleface
Congratulations, you've taken your first leap in understanding modes!
(YAY!!)

Basically, the A natural minor scale is just the G major scale played starting from the 6th (VI) degree in the scale, and ending an octave higher.

They're are plenty of 'introduction to modes' lessons (some probably on UG) take a look at them for more info!



first of all this has nothing to do with modes and second Aminor has no F#

modes suck and don't even worry about them. they play no role here.
song stuck in my head today


#7
Quote by lbc_sublime
first of all this has nothing to do with modes and second Aminor has no F#

modes suck and don't even worry about them. they play no role here.


so whats the technical term for what you described?
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#8
ok. The comparison your doing isn't between full scales, pentatonic scales just use 5 out of the 7 notes in a scale.
so, a full g major scale is
g a b c d e f#
a g maj pentatonic just uses the 1 3 4 5 6 notes of scale
g b c d e

a minor
a b c d e f g
a minor pent
a c d e g

So they are the same but really matters is the context, If you play a Fmajor chord and one of those pentatonic scales, you're gonna have a Amin feel, because there is no F in gmaj. So What really is going to determine your key in this case is your chord progression. As far as the mode talk above, I belive they are a little confused, the only way this could be related to modes is you could say that that the A minor pentatonic scale is a form of A dorian, a mode of G major, but don't worry about any of the mode talk.
Last edited by skaguitarist182 at Nov 6, 2009,
#9
Quote by bellamy_morello
so whats the technical term for what you described?

There is no technical term, it's just two unrelated scales that happen to share some notes...absolutely nothing to do with modes.
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#10
Anything said above about it being modes at all is wrong. This has nothing to do with modes.

It just so happens these scales overlap. Em pentatonic and Am pentatonic also overlap. It's because their keys are closely related (Em and Am) and the notes omitted for a pentatonic scale happen to be those that are different between them.
#11
Case and point there are differences based on context.
Refer here if you need help with the correct notes on the fret board.
http://jguitar.com/scale/G/Major%20Pentatonic
http://jguitar.com/scale?root=A&scale=Minor+Pentatonic&fret=0&labels=none&notes=sharps

made some edits in my first post i had a mistake too, been up since 4am and brain isn't working at full capacity, but went over it a few times and I think it should clear up any questions.
Last edited by skaguitarist182 at Nov 6, 2009,
#12
Quote by timeconsumer09
Anything said above about it being modes at all is wrong. This has nothing to do with modes.

It just so happens these scales overlap. Em pentatonic and Am pentatonic also overlap. It's because their keys are closely related (Em and Am) and the notes omitted for a pentatonic scale happen to be those that are different between them.


Wrong, it has everything to do with modes.

Am pentatonic relates to GMaj because Am pentatonic comes from A Dorian (A,B,C,D,E,F#,G). Exclude to 2nd and the 6th and you have Am pentatonic (A,C,D,E,G)

Em pentatonic and Am pentatonic relate to each other because they are also modes of GMaj. A Dorian, and E Aeolian (the relative minor). Or Em pentatonic and Am pentatonic could be modes of CMaj, E Phrygian, and A Aeolian.

Scales that relate to each other can be easily explained with modes, that's the point.
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Last edited by Hobble at Nov 6, 2009,
#13
Quote by skaguitarist182
ok. The comparison your doing isn't between full scales, pentatonic scales just use 5 out of the 7 notes in a scale.
so, a full g major scale is
g a b c d e f#
a g maj pentatonic just uses the 1 3 4 5 6 notes of scale
g b c d e

a minor
a b c d e f g
a minor pent
a c d e g



think you made a typo.
G Maj pentatonic is 1 2 5 6 drop the 4 and 7 . the notes are G A B D E

A minor
minor is 13457 the notes are right though A C D E G

the A natural minor scale is just the G major scale played starting from the 6th (VI) degree in the scale, and ending an octave higher.


A natrual minor isn't the 6th degree its the second in G Maj its the 6th degree in C Maj
Last edited by fretboard12 at Nov 6, 2009,
#14
Quote by Hobble
Wrong, it has everything to do with modes.

Am pentatonic relates to GMaj because Am pentatonic comes from A Dorian (A,B,C,D,E,F#,G). Exclude to 2nd and the 6th and you have Am pentatonic (A,C,D,E,G)

Em pentatonic and Am pentatonic relate to each other because they are also modes of GMaj. A Dorian, and E Aeolian (the relative minor). Or Em pentatonic and Am pentatonic could be modes of CMaj, E Phrygian, and A Aeolian.

Scales that relate to each other can be easily explained with modes, that's the point.



no they can't because TBH the intervals for those scales are so different the only similarities are the notes.

modes do not explain scale relationships it is more intervals relationship make modes

an Aminor pent comes from Aminor not Adorian. modes have 7 intervals formed from 1 major scale and use 7 intervals. as most of them only have 1 interval change
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#15
Quote by lbc_sublime
first of all this has nothing to do with modes and second Aminor has no F#

modes suck and don't even worry about them. they play no role here.


#16
Quote by Hobble
Wrong, it has everything to do with modes.

Am pentatonic relates to GMaj because Am pentatonic comes from A Dorian (A,B,C,D,E,F#,G). Exclude to 2nd and the 6th and you have Am pentatonic (A,C,D,E,G)

Em pentatonic and Am pentatonic relate to each other because they are also modes of GMaj. A Dorian, and E Aeolian (the relative minor). Or Em pentatonic and Am pentatonic could be modes of CMaj, E Phrygian, and A Aeolian.

Scales that relate to each other can be easily explained with modes, that's the point.


You're one of those people...

First, Am pentatonic comes from Am. Hence the name. A minor pentatonic scale uses the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 7th scale degrees of the minor scale (where the major pentatonic uses the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 6th scale degrees of the major scale). You'll notice the notes omitted in the minor pentatonic scale (2 and 6) are the notes that would need to be altered to make it modal (natural 6 for dorian; flat 2 for phrygian). Also notice the omitted notes in the major pentatonic (4 and 7) are the scale degrees that would need to be altered to make THOSE modal (sharp 4 for lydian; flat 7 for mixolydian)

Scales that relate to each other shouldn't be thought of how you're suggesting. It's much easier to recognize the differences by looking at parallel scales (C major and C phrygian, for example) rather than relative scales (C major and E phrygian, for example).

I'll bet you're one of those people who thinks soloing over a C major progression with E phrygian will give it a different 'flavor'. If you're not, my mistake. But you certainly have modes confused. I suggest reading around some theory books to learn some more.
#17
Quote by Hobble
Em pentatonic and Am pentatonic relate to each other because they are also modes of GMaj. A Dorian, and E Aeolian (the relative minor). Or Em pentatonic and Am pentatonic could be modes of CMaj, E Phrygian, and A Aeolian.


A Dorian, E Aeolian, etc.. are not modes of G major. The three major G modes are G Ionian, G Lydian, and G Mixolydian. Relative modes serve no purpose other than inducing confusion. A mode is not a box pattern, or what note you start or end on. A mode is just a scale, which is played over vamp, which allows a specific note to function as the tonic when it normally wouldn't. The diatonic modes all happen to be relative to each other, but this is not where they come from. They come from creating all possible heptatonic scales containing only whole tones and semitones, where the semitones are maximally spaced.


To answer TS, A minor pentatonic and G major do not have the same notes. A minor pentatonic lacks the B and F♯ of G major.
#18
a dorian and e aeolian are modes built from the g major...so why are you telling him they aren't modes of G major?
#19
Quote by motoko
a dorian and e aeolian are modes built from the g major...so why are you telling him they aren't modes of G major?


It's confusing and nearly pointless to look at modes in terms of relativity. It's much easier to see the intervallic differences that are inherent in modes if you look at them in comparison to one tonic (i.e. C major to C phrygian to C dorian) as opposed to comparing them to one key signature (i.e. C major to A aeolian to D dorian).
#20
regardless it is 100% correct to call them modes of the g major scale
#21
Quote by motoko
regardless it is 100% correct to call them modes of the g major scale


I think maybe he was trying to say they're not major modes of G, but they are indeed modes of G major.
#22
Quote by motoko
a dorian and e aeolian are modes built from the g major...so why are you telling him they aren't modes of G major?


They share the same notes. That is it. They do not come from G major. They cannot be used when playing in G major. They are not built from G major. They are absolutely useless in the context of G major.
#23
Quote by isaac_bandits
They share the same notes. That is it. They do not come from G major. They cannot be used when playing in G major. They are not built from G major. They are absolutely useless in the context of G major.


just lol

before you say anymore, answer this: were they modes of the G major scale?
Last edited by motoko at Nov 6, 2009,
#24
Quote by motoko
just lol

before you say anymore, answer this: were they modes of the G major scale?


No. They do not belong to the G major scale. They are completely separate things, which just happen to share the same notes.
#26
Quote by isaac_bandits
No. They do not belong to the G major scale. They are completely separate things, which just happen to share the same notes.


I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Modes ARE derived from the major scale, although they should be thought of also as separate entities with different interval patterns, structures, etc.
#27
Quote by timeconsumer09
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Modes ARE derived from the major scale, although they should be thought of also as separate entities with different interval patterns, structures, etc.


No, modes are not derived from the major scale. That is just one way in which they can be taught, and it is something which happens because of the way they are constructed. The seven diatonic modes are the seven heptatonic scales having only whole tones and semitones, where the semitones are maximally spaced. This results in the modes being the same as if you start the major scale on different notes, and since most students who want to learn modes (almost all of which learn about them incorrectly) already know the major scale, this is generally an easier way to teach them.
#28
Quote by timeconsumer09
You're one of those people...

First, Am pentatonic comes from Am. Hence the name. A minor pentatonic scale uses the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 7th scale degrees of the minor scale (where the major pentatonic uses the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 6th scale degrees of the major scale). You'll notice the notes omitted in the minor pentatonic scale (2 and 6) are the notes that would need to be altered to make it modal (natural 6 for dorian; flat 2 for phrygian). Also notice the omitted notes in the major pentatonic (4 and 7) are the scale degrees that would need to be altered to make THOSE modal (sharp 4 for lydian; flat 7 for mixolydian)

Scales that relate to each other shouldn't be thought of how you're suggesting. It's much easier to recognize the differences by looking at parallel scales (C major and C phrygian, for example) rather than relative scales (C major and E phrygian, for example).

I'll bet you're one of those people who thinks soloing over a C major progression with E phrygian will give it a different 'flavor'. If you're not, my mistake. But you certainly have modes confused. I suggest reading around some theory books to learn some more.


Am is determined by the chord tones, not by the 2nd and 6th. Am pentatonic is not limited to A Aeolian, the chord tones apply to A Dorian, and A Phrygian aswell. The OP wanted to know why Am pentatonic works in GMaj, simply put in the key of GMaj A would be Dorian.

I get what you're saying. But we have keys for a reason, the modes do relate to the key they are being played in, and the key itself is based on the Ionian/Aeolian modes.

It's pretty simple to understand that if Em pentatonic and Am pentatonic fit together in a key, than you're either playing in GM/Em or CM/Am. In either case one of the pentatonic scales you are playing is based on Aeolian, but the other must be based on Dorian or Phrygian. For both to be based on Aeolian would ignore the key entirely.

Obviously it is important to understand the diatonic differences of the modes. But it's equally as important to understand how the modes relate to each other within a given key.
"It often happens that I wake up at night and begin to think about a serious problem and decide I must tell the pope about it. Then I wake up completely and remember that I am the pope."


---Pope John XXIII
Last edited by Hobble at Nov 7, 2009,
#29
Quote by Hobble
Am is determined by the chord tones, not by the 2nd and 6th. Am pentatonic is not limited to A Aeolian, the chord tones apply to A Dorian, and A Phrygian aswell. The OP wanted to know why Am pentatonic works in GMaj, simply put in the key of GMaj A would be Dorian.

I get what you're saying. But we have keys for a reason, the modes do relate to the key they are being played in, and the key itself is based on the Ionian/Aeolian modes.

It's pretty simple to understand that if Em pentatonic and Am pentatonic fit together in a key, than you're either playing in GM/Em or CM/Am. In either case one of the pentatonic scales you are playing is based on Aeolian, but the other must be based on Dorian or Phrygian. For both to be based on Aeolian would ignore the key entirely.

Obviously it is important to understand the diatonic differences of the modes. But it's equally as important to understand how the modes relate to each other within a given key.

Regardless of that the original post was about similarities between G major and A minor, and it has nothing to do with modes. A minor is the relative minor of C major, and therefore related to all the other relative modes of C major. Modes have nothing to do with keys in practice, they're two discrete musical systems. If you're in a key then you're in a key, modes don't factor into it at all and trying to crowbar them in where they don't need to be does nothing other than confuse matters.

E minor is not a relative mode of C major therefore modes have nothing to do with it, the fact that they share notes is simply a coincidence.
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#30
Quote by steven seagull
Regardless of that the original post was about similarities between G major and A minor, and it has nothing to do with modes. A minor is the relative minor of C major, and therefore related to all the other relative modes of C major. Modes have nothing to do with keys in practice, they're two discrete musical systems. If you're in a key then you're in a key, modes don't factor into it at all and trying to crowbar them in where they don't need to be does nothing other than confuse matters.

E minor is not a relative mode of C major therefore modes have nothing to do with it, the fact that they share notes is simply a coincidence.


No, the OP asked about why G major relates Am pentatonic. A natural minor does not fit with Gmaj, A Dorian does. Obviously if you have an F# there, you're not in Cmaj and A Aeolian doesn't apply. In the OPs question the Gmaj was already established, so we know we're in the key of Gmaj, so the Am pentatonic is coming from Dorian, not Aeolian.

Later timeconsumer09 said that it didn't have to do with modes, and that Am pentatoninc and Em pentatonic fit together too. That's why I brought up Em pentatonic, to show that they fit together when you are in the key of Gmaj or Cmaj. But in either key, only one of those pentatonic scales can come from Aeolian, the other has to come from Phrygian or Dorian.

Modes originally were a different system from keys. But these days modes have been integrated with tonal theory, the key does apply. If you hear a D minor scale with a major 6th played in a song, than that tells you that it's Dorian and that you are in the key of Cmaj.

The whole "they fit together, but they are not related" that's been thrown around in this thread is missing a huge part of the picture. They fit together because they are conforming to a key. Em pentatonic and Am pentatonic played together tell us that we're in Gmaj, or Cmaj, if we hear a an F or an F# thrown in that tells us exactly which key we're in, and what modes each pentatonic scale is coming from.
"It often happens that I wake up at night and begin to think about a serious problem and decide I must tell the pope about it. Then I wake up completely and remember that I am the pope."


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Last edited by Hobble at Nov 7, 2009,
#31
It's irrelevant - Am pentatonic is a subset of A minor, it's the same scale with a couple of notes omitted.

Am pentatonic does not "come from A Dorian" at all, in any circumstances, especially seeing as it doesn't even contain the signature Dorian intervals. You're overcomplicating by matching up bits of theory with whatever they happen to fit with.
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Last edited by steven seagull at Nov 7, 2009,
#32
Quote by steven seagull
It's irrelevan - Am pentatonic is a subset of A minor, it's the same scale with a couple of notes omitted.

Am pentatonic does not "come from A Dorian" at all, in any circumstances.


The minor pentatonic scale is a scale of it's own, it doesn't belong to the minor scale. It simply means that the scale is made of a root, minor 3rd, perfect 4th, perfect 5th, and a minor 7th. The notes that would establish it as Aeolian, Dorian, Phrygian are left out. But through the relationship of one pentatonic scale, to the other two, we can establish the key.

Obviously it's relevant because Amin and Gmaj are two different keys, yet Am pentatonic fits with Gmaj. Gmaj is already established as the key, so we know that the Am pentatonic can't be coming from A Aeolian because A is not the relative minor, A in Gmaj is Dorian.

Every key has 3 minor pentatonic scales in it. In Gmaj we have Am pentatonic, Em pentatonic, and Bm pentatonic. If you're playing a minor blues, you can use the 3 pentatonic scales. All 3 of them can't be based on the Aeolian mode, than there would be no established key. The I will be based on Aeolian, the II will be based on Dorian. and the IV based on Phrygian.
"It often happens that I wake up at night and begin to think about a serious problem and decide I must tell the pope about it. Then I wake up completely and remember that I am the pope."


---Pope John XXIII
Last edited by Hobble at Nov 7, 2009,
#33
You should think about taking a some guitar lessons. You can learn without them but its nice to sit down with someone and have them play with you and show you how everything fits together. They helped me a ton.
#34
Wait, playing Am pent and Em pent in the same song, which is actually G major? What the hell? If the song is in G major, you're playing G major. No exceptions.
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#35
Quote by Eastwinn
Wait, playing Am pent and Em pent in the same song, which is actually G major? What the hell? If the song is in G major, you're playing G major. No exceptions.

this
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#36
Quote by Eastwinn
Wait, playing Am pent and Em pent in the same song, which is actually G major? What the hell? If the song is in G major, you're playing G major. No exceptions.
You did a lovely job.


... of completely clouding the issue. READ THE OP.
Nothing in there about a song being in G major.
TS is looking for the relationship between:

the G major scale
and
the A minor pentatonic scale

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#37
Quote by Eastwinn
Wait, playing Am pent and Em pent in the same song, which is actually G major? What the hell? If the song is in G major, you're playing G major. No exceptions.


Yes, Gmaj/Em are the same key. The modes in the key of Gmaj are all the same notes of Gmaj, from different degrees. They're mainly used to put focus on a different degree of the key, to add different types of tension.
"It often happens that I wake up at night and begin to think about a serious problem and decide I must tell the pope about it. Then I wake up completely and remember that I am the pope."


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#38
Quote by SomeoneYouKnew
You did a lovely job.


... of completely clouding the issue. READ THE OP.
Nothing in there about a song being in G major.
TS is looking for the relationship between:

the G major scale
and
the A minor pentatonic scale



OP doesn't say anything about a song being in Gmaj. But we know that if we're dealing with the Gmaj scale, than we're working with the key of Gmaj.
"It often happens that I wake up at night and begin to think about a serious problem and decide I must tell the pope about it. Then I wake up completely and remember that I am the pope."


---Pope John XXIII
#39
Quote by Hobble
Yes, Gmaj/Em are the same key. The modes in the key of Gmaj are all the same notes of Gmaj, from different degrees. They're mainly used to put focus on a different degree of the key, to add different types of tension.


You don't understand modes. And G major and Em are most certainly not the same key.

The only thing the G major scale and A minor pentatonic have in common is they happen to have the same notes. If you're playing in G major you shouldn't be thinking about Am pentatonic at all. Thinking of scales like that is just confusing and another way to skive off learning your scales properly. Don't be lazy.
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Nov 7, 2009,
#40
Quote by Hobble
OP doesn't say anything about a song being in Gmaj. But we know that if we're dealing with the Gmaj scale, than we're working with the key of Gmaj.
Really? How can you automatically go from examining the relationship of the notes include in the G major scale and those found in the A minor pentatonic and assume we're "working with the key of Gmaj"?

Can you not think of another key that uses the same notes as the G major scale?
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