#1
I'm having difficulty understanding tritone substitutions.
Apparently in a progression like C F G7 C the G7 can be swapped with Db7 or vice versa (Gb B Db7 Gb to Gb B G7 Gb7).
So in the second progression G7 goes to Gb7.
So why can't C F G7 Gb work as a progression?
Would it be possible to insert a few chords between the C and the G7 to prepare the G7 to resolve to the Gb?
Last edited by Zombiechao at Nov 13, 2009,
#2
tritone subs are replacing a chord, not the whole progression

in other words, i dont get how you replace the C with a Gb.
Last edited by deHufter at Nov 13, 2009,
#3
My point was that the tritone BF in G7 could resolve to either a Gb or a C. In the context of the C chord progression it resolves to C. In the Gb one it resolves to a Gb. I was wondering if it was possible to make it resolve to Gb in a C chord progression.
C somestuff G7 Gb
#4
Quote by Zombiechao
My point was that the tritone BF in G7 could resolve to either a Gb or a C. In the context of the C chord progression it resolves to C. In the Gb one it resolves to a Gb. I was wondering if it was possible to make it resolve to Gb in a C chord progression.
C somestuff G7 Gb


that could probably work as a good key change from C to Gb
#5
Tritone Substitution works like this:

In a V7 - progression one of the important factors at play in this move (there are a few) is the dissonant tritone between the Maj 3rd and min 7th of the V7 chord resolving a certain way to a more consonant Major third interval between the root and the Major third of the tonic chord.

In the key of C for example you get G7-C.
The tritone in the G7 is found between the third and minor seventh - the B and the F. Now as this moves to the C chord we hear the B move up a half step to the root of the new chord - C and the F moves down a half step to the Major third of the tonic chord the E.

Now because the Tritone can be inverted to form a tritone there is another dominant seventh chord that uses those same two notes - only inverted. The D♭7 uses the F as the third and the C♭ (which is the enharmonic equivalent of the B from the G7 chord) as the tritone interval.

So in our G7-C chord change we can substitute a D♭7 for the G7 and keep the same dissonant tritone interval and it's same resolution to the major third of the tonic C chord - The F down a half step to E and the C♭ up a half step to C.

Basically it's about common tones - both chords have a common tone. But it's also a little more than that because it's about a common dissonant interval between the cord that lets you effectively subsitute one for the other.

This substitution doesn't always have to be for a functioning dominant7 chord. But it does sound particularly good there as it creates a chromatic root movement also.

A particularly nice use of this substitution is in a chain of fifths type of progression such as
II7 - V7 - I (In C this would be D7 - G7 - C)

We can use a tritone sub on the V7 to get D7 D♭7 C for a nice chromatic move that keeps the function of the original progression.

Or you can use it on the II7 and have a ♭VI7 V7 I progression.
Si
#6
Oops I didn't read that second post, I thought you just didn't get how it worked.

Yeah the BF can resolve to the major third in a G♭ or a C.

It depends how you use it. You could be in the key of C and use a D♭7 or G7 to resolve to and briefly tonicize a G♭, or even modulate to the key of G♭ if you want. It's just a matter of what you're trying to do.

Play around try it out, that's the sort of questions you should use as a basis to experiment and see what you can do with your music. Music is studies through practice - musical ideas should be tested out through the practice and experimentation of music.

EDIT: One thing I wondered about when I learned about tritone subs and played around with them for a while was other chords that use the tritone such as an Fsus#4 in place of a G7 or D♭7 resolving to a G♭ or C. Or the possibility of a tritone resolving to the major third interval in a minor chord between the m3 and p5. So a G7 resolving to an Am for example.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Nov 13, 2009,
#8
You can also have more complex progressions with tritone subs. For example the rather lengthy progression of Cmaj7 - Bm7 - E7 - Am7 - D7 - Gm7 - C7 - Fmaj7. All the dominant sevenths chords can have their root shifted down a tritone, so you'd end up with Cmaj7 - Bm7 - Bb7 - Am7 - Ab7 - Gm7 - Gb7 - Fmaj7. Notice the nice smoother chromatic bassline? Thats one of the reasons tritones subs are used, the bassline is very natural sounding.
#9
If the G7 moves to F#(or Gb) it is acting like a Tri tone sub for C#7. So what you are doing is tonicising F#. G7 would not be functioning as a V7 chord but a tritone sub for the V7 of C#.
#10
Everything in this thread that has been posted so far is actually wrong.

If you were to go, say, C Dbdim D, that is not a tritone sub. Thats just a chromatic passing tone. You actually need 4 chords to make a tritone sub.

Say your in the key of Db, and your doing a ii-V turn around. Normally you would go Eb-Ab-Db, right? If you did a tritone sub, you would go Eb-Ab-E-A-Db
#11
Yeah, you could move to Gb (actually I think it should be called F#) from the G7, but you'd have a hard time making it back to the tonic. It would be a good way to modulate to the key of Gb though. You could even make it an F#7 instead and use it to modulate to B or F.
#12
Quote by tubatom868686
Everything in this thread that has been posted so far is actually wrong.

If you were to go, say, C Dbdim D, that is not a tritone sub. Thats just a chromatic passing tone. You actually need 4 chords to make a tritone sub.

Say your in the key of Db, and your doing a ii-V turn around. Normally you would go Eb-Ab-Db, right? If you did a tritone sub, you would go Eb-Ab-E-A-Db


actually no, it has not been all wrong, but your post is.
read 20 tigers post...... and learn something.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Nov 14, 2009,
#13
Quote by tubatom868686
Everything in this thread that has been posted so far is actually wrong.

If you were to go, say, C Dbdim D, that is not a tritone sub. Thats just a chromatic passing tone. You actually need 4 chords to make a tritone sub.

Say your in the key of Db, and your doing a ii-V turn around. Normally you would go Eb-Ab-Db, right? If you did a tritone sub, you would go Eb-Ab-E-A-Db


No you're wrong.


If you don't believe us, try googling "tritone sub" and you'll get exactly what we've posted. I have no idea where you're progression came from. A II♮ - V - ♯II - ♯V - I, is definitely not a tritone sub.
#14
Quote by GuitarMunky
actually no, it has not been all wrong, but your post is.
read 20 tigers post...... and learn something.


Actually, you should try reading my post...... and learning something.

In the world of jazz (the genre most notorious for the use of tritone subs), a tritone sub is exactly what I wrote out. A lot of the time diminished passing chords (what you described) are used in extremely similair ways to tritone subs, and theyve become almost synonymous. But a strict tritone sub is different that what anyone else has said

I can consult theory text if you like. Or teachers too. Or professional musicians. Or you can save both our time and just understand that difference between a tritone sub and a diminished passing chord
Last edited by tubatom868686 at Nov 15, 2009,
#15
Quote by tubatom868686
Everything in this thread that has been posted so far is actually wrong.
So everyone else is wrong except for you. - Arrogant much??

Quote by tubatom868686
If you were to go, say, C Dbdim D, that is not a tritone sub. Thats just a chromatic passing tone. You actually need 4 chords to make a tritone sub.
Who ever mentioned that progression?? - Apart from you - no one.

No one said anything about C - D♭dim - D. (which goes to show you didn't really read anything posted - and if you did perhaps you have trouble with comprehension because you came away with something that isn't even there :shrug.

The example used was actually D7-D♭7-C (II7-♭II7-I).
In which the ♭II7 (D♭7) is a tritone substitution for a V7 (G7) since both the G7 and the D♭7 contain the same tritone (between the B(C♭ and the F which are present in both chords) and that tritone is resolved in the same way (by half steps) to form the major third between the root and the third of the tonic C chord.

Look it up, print this thread and show it to your teachers, or professional musicians, or whoever else and they will tell you that this is indeed a tritone substitution.


Quote by tubatom868686
Say your in the key of Db, and your doing a ii-V turn around. Normally you would go Eb-Ab-Db, right? If you did a tritone sub, you would go Eb-Ab-E-A-Db
No - just no.

As far as tritone subs go you're so far off on this one you're embarrassing yourself.

Let's put that progression that in the key of E just for fun and call the chords by their enharmonic equivalent...

You start with F♯-B-E. Then with your approach you end up with...F♯-B-G-C-E
WTF???

I'm not sure where you got this from man but it is most definitely not a tritone sub.
II V I becomes II - V -♭III - ♭VI - I - Where's the tritone??

A tritone subsitution is when you substitute a dominant seventh for another dom7 with a root a tritone away. - that's it. It works because they both share the same tritone between their M3 and m7 which resolves to the R and M3 of the tonic chord.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Nov 15, 2009,
#16
^ It sounds like you certainly know your stuff!

However, i can't help but think this is a case of mistaken terminology.
From the Berklee notes i read a tritone sub was simply swapping the dominant chord from the conventional 5th degree, to the 'substituted' bII degree.

I think that's right, i stll have the Berklee .pdf if you want it?
#17
Quote by tubatom868686
Actually, you should try reading my post...... and learning something.

In the world of jazz (the genre most notorious for the use of tritone subs), a tritone sub is exactly what I wrote out.


I did read it..... what I learned is that you don't know what a tritone sub is. btw I studied jazz for 4 years at a university. What you wrote out is in no way consistent with how tritone subs are used in jazz (or any style actually). 20 tigers post was pretty much spot on.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Nov 15, 2009,
#18
Quote by branny1982
^ It sounds like you certainly know your stuff!

However, i can't help but think this is a case of mistaken terminology.
From the Berklee notes i read a tritone sub was simply swapping the dominant chord from the conventional 5th degree, to the 'substituted' bII degree.

I think that's right, i stll have the Berklee .pdf if you want it?

In its simplest form, yes. What he described is just an extension of that. He applied the same principle to a chain of secondary dominants.
#19
can you just think of a tritone substitution as changing the V chord in a sequence to a IIb, for example a II V I progresssion in C is Dm7 G7 and Cmaj7
with the tritone substitution it would be Dm7 Db7 Cmaj7
#20
Essentially a tritone sub tells you that you can resolve a dominant chord to the chord one semitone or a fifth below it. You can figure out what you want to do with that.
#21
Quote by isaac_bandits
Essentially a tritone sub tells you that you can resolve a dominant chord to the chord one semitone or a fifth below it. You can figure out what you want to do with that.


so yeah basically flatten the II chord and replace the V chord with it
#22
My bad guys, yall are right.

I was REALLY high all yesterday and...yea. Thats all I have to say for myself.