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#1
I need info on this. I usually consider myself pro-choice, but me and my uncle have been talking about it and now I don't know. I'm hoping you guys will debunk all this quickly, hint hint.

So for why killing a fetus is moral compared to a born human, I said that it's because fetuses don't have sentience/don't care if they die or not. But, neither do infants. So how does that work? Unless killing babies should be legal too? I doubt it.

Then there's animals and stuff. We kill them all the time yet usually they have the same level of sentience as infants, so shouldn't it be ok to kill them too based on that logic?

I'm not saying it's wrong to terminate a fetus, that would be silly, but it seems like using the same logic we could also kill infants and very young humans, so what seperates the two. Is it something I'm not thinking of? When does murdering something become immoral.
#2
Quote by guitarhero_764
Unless killing babies should be legal too?


really?
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#3
The very word 'murder' is loaded with normative connotations. What one person calls a murder, another might call euthanasia or a mercy killing. Therefore, speaking epistemologically, 'murder' is always wrong because of its connotations. The real question should be 'Is case x murder or not?'.
#4
Yeah well if you really wanna bitch about it, anytime you fap you've effectively killed millions of sperm cells which could've been your children.
Military use of children?

Infantry.
#9
Quote by sglover34479
I'm pro-life, and probably not welcome here.

I suggest you turn back the way you came *cocks shotgun*

*spits into bucket*

*plays some banjo*
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#10
Yes it's immoral, because you don't have the right to end someone's life.


Murder is always immoral imo. I don't think it can be justified by any means. Despite how angry someone is.
#11
Quote by Kensai
I suggest you turn back the way you came *cocks shotgun*

*spits into bucket*

*plays some banjo*

That's pretty impressive, playing banjo while holding a shotgun.


Also, nobody is forcing anybody to get an abortion. If you detest the idea, then don't get one, if somebody else is comfortable with it, why should you care? If a leader tries to revoke the right to abortion, then that's crossing the line between church (loosely using this as "belief") and state.
Last edited by bendystraw at Nov 21, 2009,
#12
You argue badly then. Pro-Choice people argue that it's not killing a human being, just halting the development of cells that were destined to become a human being.


I put an effort to not make my side obvious so if you're going to quote me and then say something ****ing stupid, take it to the clever bot.
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#13
it all depends really. Is it immoral to let a fetus live and contribute to the overpopulation of our planet?
#14
When its done for pleasure instead of necessity. And im not talking about purely medical necessity, that applies to economic, spiritual, all forms.

tl;dr when you do it for fun not for any valid reason.
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#15
Quote by Kensai
I suggest you turn back the way you came *cocks shotgun*

*spits into bucket*

*plays some banjo*


No, I'm pro-life, I'm supposed to play the banjo and **** the shotgun, stupid luberl, yer tipe is ruinenig amuerica.
#16
Quote by severed-metal
Yes it's immoral, because you don't have the right to end someone's life.


Murder is always immoral imo. I don't think it can be justified by any means. Despite how angry someone is.
A fetus isn't someone. This is a fact.

What I'm asking is that even by the same logic couldn't we justify the killing of infants.
#17
Quote by severed-metal
Yes it's immoral, because you don't have the right to end someone's life.


Murder is always immoral imo. I don't think it can be justified by any means. Despite how angry someone is.


Man breaks into house, runs at you with knife, luckily you have gun.


I'd say that's justified :\
#18
Quote by battlespud
When its done for pleasure instead of necessity. And im not talking about purely medical necessity, that applies to economic, spiritual, all forms.

tl;dr when you do it for fun not for any valid reason.

People do that?

"Oh honey, i'm pregnant!"

"You can't believe how long I've been waiting for this, dear. Come on, lets go down to the clinic and kill this fucker."

"I love you"
Last edited by bendystraw at Nov 21, 2009,
#19
Quote by bendystraw
That's pretty impressive, playing banjo while holding a shotgun.

Takes years of practice. Also my banjo is a banjoshotgun. The neck is a shotgun and the strings are bullets.

Quote by sglover34479
No, I'm pro-life, I'm supposed to play the banjo and **** the shotgun, stupid luberl, yer tipe is ruinenig amuerica.

Took our steeeireotyyyype

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#21
Quote by bendystraw
That's pretty impressive, playing banjo while holding a shotgun.


Also, nobody is forcing anybody to get an abortion. If you detest the idea, then don't get one, if somebody else is comfortable with it, why should you care? If a leader tries to revoke the right to abortion, then that's crossing the line between church (loosely using this as "belief") and state.


Because if they believe abortion is as bad as murder (or is just plain wrong) then they will care.


edit: and the same reasoning used for abortion would work on a newborn too i'm pretty sure.
Last edited by Zoot Allures at Nov 21, 2009,
#22
Murder is always immoral, I think the question should be "When is ending life murder?"
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#23
TL;DR the whole thread but i think the reason you can't kill babies, is because you can just put them up for adoption.... Fetus's need to stay in the womb, therefor possibly producing health problems, and also producing inconveniences for the mother, you may not agree with the logic but that is the difference from killing a baby and a fetus
#24
Quote by Zoot Allures
Man breaks into house, runs at you with knife, luckily you have gun.


I'd say that's justified :\


You'd think that. But, it's really not. Just because he tries to take your life away, doesn't mean you get to take his away. If you can kill a man, you can sure as hell injure him enough to keep him immobile.


guitarhero, I can see where you're coming from...But, if that's the case, think of it this way...A guy I know has a nice guitar I want, do I get the same guitar just because he has it?

Same deal with the fetuses get destroyed, why shouldn't babies. It doesn't justify it one way or another, i'll agree with Bendystraw, no one's forcing you to get an abortion. However, no ones stopping you from killing your child either.
#25
Quote by Randal37
TL;DR the whole thread but i think the reason you can't kill babies, is because you can just put them up for adoption.... Fetus's need to stay in the womb, therefor possibly producing health problems, and also producing inconveniences for the mother, you may not agree with the logic but that is the difference from killing a baby and a fetus
The fact that there's an alternative solution doesn't make it less moral.


guitarhero, I can see where you're coming from...But, if that's the case, think of it this way...A guy I know has a nice guitar I want, do I get the same guitar just because he has it?

Same deal with the fetuses get destroyed, why shouldn't babies. It doesn't justify it one way or another, i'll agree with Bendystraw, no one's forcing you to get an abortion. However, no ones stopping you from killing your child either.
For the third time, I'm not advocating killing babies, I'm asking why killing babies is any less moral than killing fetuses, because it seems like there should be something between them that makes the killing 'immoral' but I can't figure out what it is.
Last edited by guitarhero_764 at Nov 21, 2009,
#26
Quote by Craigo
C'mon guys, this could be an interesting thread.

Just a quick note: watch the language being used. The word 'murder' implies immortality whilst 'killing' doesn't.


Oh come on, I was serious in the first 15 abortion threads

Quote by Randal37
TL;DR the whole thread but i think the reason you can't kill babies, is because you can just put them up for adoption.... Fetus's need to stay in the womb, therefor possibly producing health problems, and also producing inconveniences for the mother, you may not agree with the logic but that is the difference from killing a baby and a fetus


You can yes, but they probably won't get adopted.
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#27
I'm pro choice.


The woman had the "choice" of keeping her legs closed or not keeping her legs closed.
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#28
Quote by Zoot Allures
Because if they believe abortion is as bad as murder (or is just plain wrong) then they will care.


edit: and the same reasoning used for abortion would work on a newborn too i'm pretty sure.

But why do people think that because it is against their own set of beliefs that they can attempt to dictate somebody else's? Surly they need to make an attempt to realize that there are people who don't think the way they do?
#29
Quote by bendystraw
But why do people think that because it is against their own set of beliefs that they can attempt to dictate somebody else's? Surly they need to make an attempt to realize that there are people who don't think the way they do?


Well since morality is subjective it would be similar to someone saying 'child molestation is okay, why do you care? it wont affect you.'

Now im sure we both agree that it isn't okay and would want to put a stop to it. regardless of that it's just our opinions whereas there probably are people who think it is okay and everyone else not involved should shutup.
#30
Quote by severed-metal
You'd think that. But, it's really not. Just because he tries to take your life away, doesn't mean you get to take his away. If you can kill a man, you can sure as hell injure him enough to keep him immobile.


guitarhero, I can see where you're coming from...But, if that's the case, think of it this way...A guy I know has a nice guitar I want, do I get the same guitar just because he has it?

Same deal with the fetuses get destroyed, why shouldn't babies. It doesn't justify it one way or another, i'll agree with Bendystraw, no one's forcing you to get an abortion. However, no ones stopping you from killing your child either.

So...a ruthless cold-blooded killer is doing whatever it takes to try and kill me, they should just getaway with an attempt to try and kill me and my family, while I stand aside trying to injure them? If someone is threatening my life as well as my family's, I'm sure as hell going to take their's to save ourselves.
#31
I did read an Ethics paper the other day which basically said that something is a person (person being something of moral worth so shouldn't be killed, this is not simply humans) if they have a concept of self, as a being through time basically with experiences.

He said that basically infanticide is defensible in some cases, because he was being consistent. If it's okay to abort a fetus on those grounds it's okay with a child.

I admire his consistency even if there were problems.
#32
Quote by bendystraw
But why do people think that because it is against their own set of beliefs that they can attempt to dictate somebody else's?



because some morons feel the need to perpetuate their beliefs as "facts"


on topic, i'm pro-choice, but to an extent.
I disagree that fetuses have any self-concept (well not in the first few months). If you just found out you're pregnant and want to abort then do w/e the **** you want, but one has to realize that as that fetus developes it is on the road to consciousness (even within the womb).

Touchy subject and my opinion doesnt even make full sense if you look at the logic linearly. It would be ignorant to say whether a fetus can be "murdered" because there are so many variables in the situation.

Also, you obviously can't compare a newly forming fetus to an infant. That is just an ignorant train of thought IMHO. Just a silly way to try to defend banning abortion.

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Last edited by deafening at Nov 21, 2009,
#34
Quote by Zoot Allures
morality is subjective


That depends what you mean by 'morality'. I'm pretty sure we could come up with a decent set of standards for everyone to abide by just from the facts of human existence without relying on religous or other obscurantist mumbo jumbo.
.
#35
Quote by guitarhero_764
For the third time, I'm not advocating killing babies, I'm asking why killing babies is any less moral than killing fetuses, because it seems like there should be something between them that makes the killing 'immoral' but I can't figure out what it is.


Well, technically, there's nothing that merits abortion as immoral...It's like killing a seed for a plant. In mid growth, not a tree, but becoming one. It stops life from forming, which in a way could be why people consider it murder. It's pretty much through association, baby's murdered, and stopping life from forming.

Although, frankly...I don't see how there's much of a difference either...because, I don't think there is one.

Quote by Myfirstpubes
So...a ruthless cold-blooded killer is doing whatever it takes to try and kill me, they should just getaway with an attempt to try and kill me and my family, while I stand aside trying to injure them? If someone is threatening my life as well as my family's, I'm sure as hell going to take their's to save ourselves.


Ok, justify it all you want, that doesn't mean it isn't immoral.
Last edited by severed-metal at Nov 21, 2009,
#36
Quote by severed-metal
Ok, justify it all you want, that doesn't mean it isn't immoral.

of course, if I kill someone its probably going to stick with me and haunt me for the rest of my life. But I rather have the guilt of killing a killer trying to kill my family rather than the regret that I did nothing when I could've done something to save my family.
#37
Quote by Myfirstpubes
of course, if I kill someone its probably going to stick with me and haunt me for the rest of my life. But I rather have the guilt of killing a killer trying to kill my family rather than the regret that I did nothing when I could've done something to save my family.


Yes, but the question is whether or not it's immoral.

However, i'd use murder as a last resort.
#38
Quote by severed-metal
Well, technically, there's nothing that merits abortion as immoral...It's like killing a seed for a plant. In mid growth, not a tree, but becoming one. It stops life from forming, which in a way could be why people consider it murder. It's pretty much through association, baby's murdered, and stopping life from forming.

Although, frankly...I don't see how there's much of a difference either...because, I don't think there is one.


Ok, justify it all you want, that doesn't mean it isn't immoral.


Are you saying there's no possible way to kill a man justifiably? I'd have to kindly disagree. I think if your family was murdered and you had the chance to kill the guy before it was all said and done then you'd be kickin' urself in the ass for not doing so. The world is a vicious place friend.

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#39
When isn't murder immoral?
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#40
Quote by Nietsche
That depends what you mean by 'morality'. I'm pretty sure we could come up with a decent set of standards for everyone to abide by just from the facts of human existence without relying on religous or other obscurantist mumbo jumbo.


Nah you will always have a minority of people who will think differently to what society says are good moral standards.
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