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#1
I've always thought that blues playing was just the same old minor pentatonic scale played in the key of the song. This is what I've been doing during my 5 years of playing, among other things, but I've always thought that blues players stick to the I chord scale and NEVER move (i.e. follow chords around with modes).

Today I playing along with Hendrix playing Fire @ Woodstock and noticed he followed the bassline up a whole tone and back down again, twice, with the minor pentatonic scale during a solo. MY WORLD WAS ROCKED!

This probably all sounds daft to everyone who already knows this crap.... but blues playing has been the simple I chord blues scale to me, for 5 bloody years! It's been a grounded fact. Now I feel silly.

Has anyone heard any other big blues players like BB King doing this? Because as far as my memory serves he sticks to the blues scale in the key of the song. Maybe Clapton?
#2
I'm pretty sure most blues guitarists do more than just follow the blues scale of the tonic all the time.
Quote by Spitz13
**** you, i live in uruguay.
#3
You can use relative majors, the major pentatonic, or even the natural minor to begin with. You follow the rhythm note for note with a shitload of different techniques with triads and well too much stuff and im tired, happy playing!
Quote by metal_fretter
ok so iv started been shredding for a while now. and i was reading other threads and i was wondering, is shredding just playing random notes all over the fret board wherever i want. or am i supposed to shred in some kind of scale??
#4
Now you can have fun with the stabilizers taken off, like a 46 year old retard!
Quote by metal_fretter
ok so iv started been shredding for a while now. and i was reading other threads and i was wondering, is shredding just playing random notes all over the fret board wherever i want. or am i supposed to shred in some kind of scale??
#5
yea, it's pretty common practice in any genre to follow the chord changes. you're not really changing scales (unless the key changes) but emphasizing the notes of whatever chords are going on. it's also cool to lead into the next chord before it gets there, like say you're in Em and the next chord is an Am then you could slowly bend up a G to an A, or could play a descending run and land on the A right when the chord hits.


of course, you can mix and match really. just play along not really paying attention to the chords for a little while, and then start doing it to really emphasize them for a little bit, etc.
Last edited by The4thHorsemen at Nov 26, 2009,
#6
Quote by les_kris
You can use relative majors, the major pentatonic, or even the natural minor to begin with. You follow the rhythm note for note with a shitload of different techniques with triads and well too much stuff and im tired, happy playing!


Yepp, I know all this. I am grade 6 on guitar (believe it or not) which is one of the reasons I feel so stupid not not realizing blues players follow chords. Although to be honest, I've yet to find another famous blues player doing it on youtube. And everyone I've ever jammed with or played in bands with (some very good players) have all used the blues scale or other bluesy sounding scale on the tonic, always. I guess it's more of a rare thing than I thought.
#7
Joe bonamassa, and prepare to feel stupider!
Quote by metal_fretter
ok so iv started been shredding for a while now. and i was reading other threads and i was wondering, is shredding just playing random notes all over the fret board wherever i want. or am i supposed to shred in some kind of scale??
#8
And derek trucks, so many more, im so tired i just want CSI to start!!!!!!!!!!
Quote by metal_fretter
ok so iv started been shredding for a while now. and i was reading other threads and i was wondering, is shredding just playing random notes all over the fret board wherever i want. or am i supposed to shred in some kind of scale??
#10
Quote by Karmaface
I've always thought that blues playing was just the same old minor pentatonic scale played in the key of the song. This is what I've been doing during my 5 years of playing, among other things, but I've always thought that blues players stick to the I chord scale and NEVER move (i.e. follow chords around with modes).

Today I playing along with Hendrix playing Fire @ Woodstock and noticed he followed the bassline up a whole tone and back down again, twice, with the minor pentatonic scale during a solo. MY WORLD WAS ROCKED!

This probably all sounds daft to everyone who already knows this crap.... but blues playing has been the simple I chord blues scale to me, for 5 bloody years! It's been a grounded fact. Now I feel silly.

Has anyone heard any other big blues players like BB King doing this? Because as far as my memory serves he sticks to the blues scale in the key of the song. Maybe Clapton?

Following chords and moving around the fretboard has nothing to do with modes....and Fire shifts because there's a "truck driver's" key change in there.
Actually called Mark!

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#11
I'm not drunk, the clue was in my message son. IM TIRED
Quote by metal_fretter
ok so iv started been shredding for a while now. and i was reading other threads and i was wondering, is shredding just playing random notes all over the fret board wherever i want. or am i supposed to shred in some kind of scale??
#12
Quote by Karmaface
I've always thought that blues playing was just the same old minor pentatonic scale played in the key of the song. This is what I've been doing during my 5 years of playing, among other things, but I've always thought that blues players stick to the I chord scale and NEVER move (i.e. follow chords around with modes).

Today I playing along with Hendrix playing Fire @ Woodstock and noticed he followed the bassline up a whole tone and back down again, twice, with the minor pentatonic scale during a solo. MY WORLD WAS ROCKED!

This probably all sounds daft to everyone who already knows this crap.... but blues playing has been the simple I chord blues scale to me, for 5 bloody years! It's been a grounded fact. Now I feel silly.

Has anyone heard any other big blues players like BB King doing this? Because as far as my memory serves he sticks to the blues scale in the key of the song. Maybe Clapton?

a lot of blues players, including BB king follow chords. ive heard tons of blues licks that follow the chords of a blues progression. BB king does a lot of mixing the major and minor pentatonic together in his solos. adds a nice effect. also, listen to red house by hendrix. you'll notice the mixing of the major and minor as well as him changing the scale a couple of times on the last chord in the progression.

ive heard some great blues players that might also switch scales to the chord. SRV actually did this a bit. the easy way is to just play the pentatonic minor scale to go with the chord. so if it goes to C, play C minor. not something i would suggest you do all the time though. another thing that players like hendrix used was to play the major pentatonic for following chords. and if the song went to a minor chord, then obviously you play the minor scale, not major.

a lot of blues players also use modes to guide their passing tones. dorian and mixolydian are common choices of modes as well as the natural minor. dont confuse this with modal playing though. with the dorian and mixolydian, its really just mixing the minor and major scales together which as i already said a lot of players do. the modes are just there to guide you really and give some structure so you arent just blindly mixing notes.
#13
Quote by steven seagull
"truck driver's" key change


What is that? Please elaborate
#14
you mean playing in the common pentatonic shape

basically if you are in the key of C major you can use all of its modes such as A minor G mixolydian etc because all of them contain the same notes, you just have to be careful of the value of each not in these scales e.g. were the root 3rd 5th are now.

The chords will therefore have to fit in with notes from the key, if not you have to change the scale to fit with any chnage implied by a new chord.

also if you want to imply the chords tones more you could use double stops, triads and arpeggios outlining the chord
#15
^that's just it, you can't "use those modes" at all, the chords and keydefine the scale, if you're in the key of c major then those notes will only ever be c major, the relative modes don't even exist in that context
Quote by Angry-Mares
What is that? Please elaborate

It's when a song's transposed by a couple of semitones to "force" a keychange. It's considered to be a bit of a cop out but it is effective, a classic example is Bon jovi's livin on a prayer
Actually called Mark!

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Last edited by steven seagull at Nov 27, 2009,
#16
I am glad you posted this because this has been my question for a long time and I recently had the same revolution.

The problem is with the way most books/teachers start teaching improvisation. They start with the minor pentatonic and this is the problem. You assume all notes are equal if it fits over all chords. They should have you start with chord tones. You should be able to target chord tones as the chords pass by. Then learn your scales but see the chord inside of them. Melody loves chord tones and they are the safe and best notes to use. They are never wrong.
If you look and any good solo you will see how they revolve around the chords not the key.

This also might help

http://www.aurelienbudynek.com/articlesNGW/targetnotes/target_notes.pdf
Last edited by statocat at Nov 27, 2009,
#17
Quote by steven seagull
^that's just it, you can't "use those modes" at all, the chords and keydefine the scale, if you're in the key of c major then those notes will only ever be c major, the relative modes don't even exist in that context

It's when a song's transposed by a couple of semitones to "force" a keychange. It's considered to be a bit of a cop out but it is effective, a classic example is Bon jovi's livin on a prayer


are you saying im right there
#18
no lol, I'm saying you're wrong.
Actually called Mark!

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#19
Quote by steven seagull
no lol, I'm saying you're wrong.


you obviously didnt read what i said then

i said they all contain the same notes you just have to treat them differently as to where the root is.

the shape can be related to the modes but all the notes are the same
#20
i also said it depended on the key, the key defines what chords and therefore what scales traids etc you can use

the key is the most important, obviously you didnt see the part where i said if you are in a specific key, idiot
#21
Quote by steven seagull
Following chords and moving around the fretboard has nothing to do with modes....and Fire shifts because there's a "truck driver's" key change in there.


Wrong. Using modes is changing key with the chord, which is quite common in the blues.

You can do whatever the hell you want in the blues. there are no rules, just a simple format that can be shifted, molded, and augmented. (or diminished)
I am the only sane person on the planet. Does that make me crazy?

Crank the Mids
#22
You guys do realize that the point of the blues is to play and not think or analyze what you are playing it. Just a thought...
I am the only sane person on the planet. Does that make me crazy?

Crank the Mids
#23
no, you can't shift modes within a piece, that's a paradox. Modal music has to be written modally. Playing the changes is a totally different concept.

TS, the reason he shifts up a tone has nothing to do with blues playing. The entire song changes key a few times, and that's why he has to change his scale and note choice. Key changes are rather un-bluesy, and i think it was a rather innovative move for Mr. Hendrix.

Changing your minor pentatonic scale to fit the IV and V chord doesn't really make sense because the intervals are all different. It would probably be better to view it as a blues scale of the I chord, with some accidentals. I'm not sure if thats what you were suggesting.
Last edited by Declan87 at Nov 29, 2009,
#24
Quote by Declan87
no, you can't shift modes within a piece, that's a paradox. Modal music has to be written modally. Playing the changes is a totally different concept.

TS, the reason he shifts up a tone has nothing to do with blues playing. The entire song changes key a few times, and that's why he has to change his scale and note choice. Key changes are rather un-bluesy, and i think it was a rather innovative move for Mr. Hendrix.

Changing your minor pentatonic scale to fit the IV and V chord doesn't really make sense because the intervals are all different. It would probably be better to view it as a blues scale of the I chord, with some accidentals. I'm not sure if thats what you were suggesting.


Not referring to the song, you can change your mode within each chord, thus changing key within each phrase. Key changes are not un-bluesy, listen to some bonamassa, or some JLH or anyone who plays slide. Secondly, there are no rules in writing music. If i want to write a b locrian mode over a F#M chord i can, not practical, but i can.
I am the only sane person on the planet. Does that make me crazy?

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#25
Quote by Declan87
no, you can't shift modes within a piece, that's a paradox. Modal music has to be written modally. Playing the changes is a totally different concept.

TS, the reason he shifts up a tone has nothing to do with blues playing. The entire song changes key a few times, and that's why he has to change his scale and note choice. Key changes are rather un-bluesy, and i think it was a rather innovative move for Mr. Hendrix.

Changing your minor pentatonic scale to fit the IV and V chord doesn't really make sense because the intervals are all different. It would probably be better to view it as a blues scale of the I chord, with some accidentals. I'm not sure if thats what you were suggesting.

im pretty sure you can change modes within a piece. i dont see how you cant. ive heard celtic songs and jigs and such that do just that actually. some will switch it so that the notes are the same, but the key is different. so it might start in mixolydian and then switch to dorain but keeping the same notes.

and to your last part, no it doesnt really make sense but its done. its not done all the time though. usually once in a while to add a differnt, usually dissonant sound.
#26
Quote by Bluesy...
Not referring to the song, you can change your mode within each chord, thus changing key within each phrase. Key changes are not un-bluesy, listen to some bonamassa, or some JLH or anyone who plays slide. Secondly, there are no rules in writing music. If i want to write a b locrian mode over a F#M chord i can, not practical, but i can.

No, you can't.
Actually called Mark!

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#27
Quote by steven seagull
No, you can't.


your an idiot man, you seriously cant consider anyone elses opinion even if its right because your so convinced you have the answer for everything
#28
its not opinion, its fact. B locrian doesn't contain the chord F# major. No matter how much you play the notes BCDEFGA, you would just be playing in whatever the key is, with a ton of accidentals.

Modes are different. RTFS.
#29
Quote by metaladdict123
you're an idiot man, you seriously can't consider anyone else's opinion even if it's right because you're so convinced you have the answer for everything

You're the idiot for disagreeing with my statement.

You can't play B locrian over an F#M chord, that's not a matter of opinion it's a stone cold fact - B locrian doesn't even exist in that context.

If you're using the notes CDEFGAB over an F#M chord then they're most likely going to be C major or A minor depending on the rest of the song, but if you're only playing over that chord for an extended period then those notes will be F lydian

Also I fixed your post for you, 6/10 for grammar.
Actually called Mark!

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Last edited by steven seagull at Nov 30, 2009,
#30
Quote by metaladdict123
your an idiot man, you seriously cant consider anyone elses opinion even if its right because your so convinced you have the answer for everything


Someone didn't learn modes right =(
Quote by UtBDan
this man hits the nail on the head.
#31
Quote by blueriver
Someone didn't learn modes right =(


im not saying he's wrong im saying he's a ****
Last edited by metaladdict123 at Nov 30, 2009,
#32
Quote by metaladdict123
im not saying he's wrong im saying he's a ****


But he's not a ****. He said the truth. You can't play B locrian over an F#m chord, because the F#m vamp does not imply B locrian. It doesn't imply B anything. You could maybe play F# locrian over your F# chord, but you can't call the notes BCDEFGA over an F#m chord, and say B° is the tonic. Hell, you can't even have B° as the tonic, unless you vamp it, and even then its difficult to maintian the locrian tonality.
#33
Quote by isaac_bandits
But he's not a ****. He said the truth. You can't play B locrian over an F#m chord, because the F#m vamp does not imply B locrian. It doesn't imply B anything. You could maybe play F# locrian over your F# chord, but you can't call the notes BCDEFGA over an F#m chord, and say B° is the tonic. Hell, you can't even have B° as the tonic, unless you vamp it, and even then its difficult to maintian the locrian tonality.


dont you understand words, i said he was right i just dont like is attitude
#34
Quote by metaladdict123
dont you understand words, i said he was right i just dont like is attitude


He had attitude? He was concise, telling you something that he was absolutely correct about. He used proper orthography, was polite, and had something worth saying. There was no attitude.

You then told him he was conceited and couldn't see anyone else's opinion (when what he stated was fact) because he was convinced he had the answer for everything.
#35
Quote by metaladdict123
don't you understand words? I said he was right I just don't like his attitude

Don't you understand grammar?
Actually called Mark!

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...it's a seagull

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#37
yeah not be a grammer nazi, i just felt like this thread was supposed to be about teaching rather than showing of your own knowledge. To me he didnt express his thoughts in a respectfull way
#38
Quote by metaladdict123
Yeah not be a grammar nazi, I just felt like this thread was supposed to be about teaching rather than showing of your own knowledge. To me he didn't express his thoughts in a respectful way.



He was trying to teach you and not let anyone else get confused. I saw no showing off anything, nor any disrespecting.


Also, I fixed your grammar just 'cuz I felt like being a dick.
Last edited by The4thHorsemen at Dec 1, 2009,
#39
Quote by metaladdict123
Don't you understand words? I said he was right, I just don't like people pointing out when I'm wrong.
fixed
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