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#1
So latley been focusing on the 7 positions of the major scale. I noticed that each position started on a different note like the different modes (dorian, phrygian...) So say like I played C major in the 3rd position (G) I would be really playing G mixolydian?

Also the major scale is essentially 24,124,134,134,24,12 right? So if you played in the same key, just down a position you would be playing the dorian scale? Which would be 34s,134s,234s,23,134s,134s (s=stretch down 1 fret.)

And if you just added your 1st finger to the original major scale (124,124,134,134,24,12) would just doing that make it locrian?

Thanks for the help!
#2
Forget modes and forget shapes and learn how to construct major and minor scales and learn the notes on your guitar.
#4
Quote by d1sturbed4eva
So latley been focusing on the 7 positions of the major scale. I noticed that each position started on a different note like the different modes (dorian, phrygian...) So say like I played C major in the 3rd position (G) I would be really playing G mixolydian?
Just to confuse you, you could be playing in either, or you could be playing in A minor.

They are all positions of the major scale. That's the thing to remember. However, they are also all positions of the G mixolydian scale.

Whether a set of notes you're playing can be described as having modal qualities is NOT about where you play that set of notes on the fretboard. And it's not about what the lowest note in a phrase is. It's about the tonic (or final). The note that is the root note of the scale you're playing in.

Have a read through the modes links in my sig to help you understand modes and how to use them.

Here's a picture I made a while ago to help demonstrate the concept I'm trying to explain here (it doesn't use the same shapes you are using (it uses the CAGED shapes) but that doesn't matter the idea is still the same)...


^Ignore those those dots they shouldn't be there - they are moveable patterns.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Nov 28, 2009,
#5
Quote by griffRG7321
Forget modes and forget shapes and learn how to construct major and minor scales and learn the notes on your guitar.


You mean
major:WWhWWWh
minor:WhWWhWW
There's probably more to it though

Learning modes is actually my way of learning the notes

Quote by sxymnky777


I'm actually getting it. Just not now. Looks very useful

EDIT:
Quote by 20Tigers
text


Yeah, that is confusing. Thanks I didn't realize that.
Last edited by d1sturbed4eva at Nov 28, 2009,
#6
I had trouble paying attention to what you were asking but modes are essentially when you start on a different root note from a scale.

Like this:

C major
C D E F G A B

D E F G A B C

E F G A B C D

F G A B C D E

G A B C D E F

A B C D E F G (parallel minor scale)

B C D E F G A

That's the basics of it from what I gather. It applies to all of the different major scales.
Quote by Tyler Durden
It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything.

Erowid
Last edited by RockGuitar92 at Nov 28, 2009,
#7
Yeah, I'm probably just over-analyzing the whole thing.

@20Tigers: Based off what you're saying, I'm learning a song that is in the key of G. Since the first and last notes of the song is a E it makes the key Em?

Thanks, that clears up things alot.
#8
Quote by d1sturbed4eva
Yeah, I'm probably just over-analyzing the whole thing.

@20Tigers: Based off what you're saying, I'm learning a song that is in the key of G. Since the first and last notes of the song is a E it makes the key Em?

Thanks, that clears up things alot.


How could the song have two keys? (without a keychange of course)
#10
Quote by Guitarfreak777
How could the song have two keys? (without a keychange of course)


G major= Em
G: GABCDEF#
Em: EF#GABCD
same notes just in a different order
Quote by tenfold
No. It's what the song resolves to.


Isn't that the same thing? I mean what's the difference?
#11
Quote by RockGuitar92
I had trouble paying attention to what you were asking but modes are essentially when you start on a different root note from a scale.

Like this:

C major
C D E F G A B

D E F G A B C

E F G A B C D

F G A B C D E

G A B C D E F

A B C D E F G (parallel minor scale)

B C D E F G A

That's the basics of it from what I gather. It applies to all of the different major scales.


It doesn't matter where you start. It matters where it resolves (even if you don't complete the resolution).
#12
Quote by d1sturbed4eva
Isn't that the same thing? I mean what's the difference?

The difference is the sense of completion that arises. Try playing a I-IV-V (Gmaj Cmaj Dmaj). Play it a few times in a row then land on Emin. Then do the same thing but land on Gmaj.
#13
I don't understand what you guys mean by 'what it resolves to.' Do you mean if I was playing in Em the most frequently note I would use is E? As supposed to it would be G if I used G major....Please explain.
#15
Not yet, I don't have my guitar on me at the moment. Is it just something I'll figure out once I do it?

And for the progressions do you mean G-C-D-Em and G-C-D-G? Yeah, it's kind of obvious that the first one would sound better. I'll give it a try in a bit.
#16
Quote by d1sturbed4eva
Not yet, I don't have my guitar on me at the moment. Is it just something I'll figure out once I do it?

You'll most likely understand once you play the progression I gave you.
I attached a midi file since you don't have your guitar. It goes G-C-D-D-G-C-D-D then tries to end on Eminor but it doesn't sound right. Then it does the same thing but ends on GMajor.

Quote by d1sturbed4eva
And for the progressions do you mean G-C-D-Em and G-C-D-G? Yeah, it's kind of obvious that the first one would sound better. I'll give it a try in a bit.

No, just G-C-D-D. Play it a few times then try ending on Eminor. It doesn't sound right, then try ending on Gmajor.
Attachments:
GMaj 1-4-5.mid
#17
Quote by tenfold
Play it a few times then try ending on Eminor. It doesn't sound right, then try ending on Gmajor.


I tried it and to me it actually didn't sound that bad. Maybe it's just me I got to work harder on ear training I guess.

Ok lets assume that I found out it didn't sound right, which it shouldn't I guess. Whats the reason? I played the open chords btw, my computer won't let me open the attatchment.
#18
Right click and save link/target.
I don't know why it's like that, but it just is. Definitely try some more ear training and putting together many progressions.

Btw here's a mediafire link inside a zip, http://www.mediafire.com/?yavjwdyaog2
Last edited by tenfold at Nov 28, 2009,
#19
Oh ok, I thought there was which is why you had me do it in the first place. Back to the 'resolves to' thing. So what does this have to do with that?

Actually that makes sense because Em doesn't sound good with G and G and Em are basically the same thing....Confusing.
#20
G and Em have the same notes but aren't the same. That progression sounds like it should end on Gmaj, not Emin. Emin can sound good but not as a resolution, more of a chord that leads to the tonic or another chord.
I'll do it on my guitar in a minute and see if I can show any better. I'll put in the 7th degree diminished chord to show how it doesn't pull to Em but rather Gmaj.
Last edited by tenfold at Nov 28, 2009,
#21
Quote by d1sturbed4eva
Oh ok, I thought there was which is why you had me do it in the first place. Back to the 'resolves to' thing. So what does this have to do with that?

Actually that makes sense because Em doesn't sound good with G and G and Em are basically the same thing....Confusing.


Resolves to refers to the chord where the song sounds complete. Try this:

Play C F Dm G C (It clearly resolves to C)
Play Am Dm Em F G Am (It clearly resolves to Am)
Play F G F G F G F (It resolves to F)
Play Dm G Dm G Dm G Dm (It resolves to Dm)

Now try playing the same things, only ending on the second last chords. All of them should sound somewhat incomplete, and when you go to that final chord, it will sound resolved.

The first is in C major
The second is in A minor
The third is in F Lydian
The fourth is in D Dorian

All four of these have the same notes, but they have very different sounds. You can play any of the boxes that you learned as C major over them, and for each progression you will be playing from that respective scale. The box pattern, ending note, and starting note do not dictate the modality; The chords, and where they resolve does.
#22
Ok, I think I understand now. So if a song resolves to Em the notes lead back to the E rather then G in the GM scale, which consist of the same notes, just in a different order. Wow.
#23
Quote by d1sturbed4eva
Ok, I think I understand now. So if a song resolves to Em the notes lead back to the E rather then G in the GM scale, which consist of the same notes, just in a different order. Wow.


Yeah, you phrase it so that the song resolves to a different note. Its really easy to make a song resolve to G major. Its a little harder to make it resolve to Em, but still fairly easy to do. With the modes, one can usually make a progression that resolves where they want it to, but its usually quite difficult to make an interesting song with them, because those notes by default want to resolve to the relative major.
#24
Quote by isaac_bandits
its usually quite difficult to make an interesting song with them, because those notes by default want to resolve to the relative major.


Is it because the song doesn't sound quite 'right' with the other modes?

As you might not of noticed, I'm the guy that wants to know the reason for everything so sorry for all the stupid questions. Part of the reason why I'm interested in theory.
Last edited by d1sturbed4eva at Nov 28, 2009,
#25
They're not stupid questions. They were worthwhile to ask.
Here's the mp3 I told you I would do. I recorded it directly into my pc and used Amplitube2 on it, it doesn't sound the best but it's a good example.
It shows G-C-D-Em, and the Em doesn't seem like the rest/home chord. Doesn't sound complete. After that I do G-C-D-G, and it sounds complete and at rest.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=1004745&songID=8408603
#26
Quote by d1sturbed4eva
So latley been focusing on the 7 positions of the major scale. I noticed that each position started on a different note like the different modes (dorian, phrygian...) So say like I played C major in the 3rd position (G) I would be really playing G mixolydian?
If the section's tonal center was G (if it resolved to G), then yes. If the tonal center didn't change, then the scale wouldn't either.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#27
Quote by RockGuitar92
I had trouble paying attention to what you were asking but modes are essentially when you start on a different root note from a scale.

Like this:

C major
C D E F G A B

D E F G A B C

E F G A B C D

F G A B C D E

G A B C D E F

A B C D E F G (parallel minor scale)

B C D E F G A

That's the basics of it from what I gather. It applies to all of the different major scales.


If your in A minor and you start on the note B it doesn't mean you playing B locrian. Also A minor is the relative minor, not parallel.
#28
Quote by tenfold
They're not stupid questions. They were worthwhile to ask.
Here's the mp3 I told you I would do. I recorded it directly into my pc and used Amplitube2 on it, it doesn't sound the best but it's a good example.
It shows G-C-D-Em, and the Em doesn't seem like the rest/home chord. Doesn't sound complete. After that I do G-C-D-G, and it sounds complete and at rest.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=1004745&songID=8408603


Ok, I can hear it now. I was listening to the whole progression rather then how complete it sounded. Thank you, I understand now.

So if I played the C major scale in the 3rd position I would be still playing C major, not G mixolydian, right? But if I wrote a song using the same scale revolving around G,then I can say I'm playing in G mixolydian? Or im still playing in C major but G mixolydian is what it resolves to?
#29
Quote by d1sturbed4eva
So if I played the C major scale in the 3rd position I would be still playing C major, not G mixolydian, right? But if I wrote a song using the same scale revolving around G,then I can say I'm playing in G mixolydian?
Yes, and yes.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#30
Quote by griffRG7321
If your in A minor and you start on the note B it doesn't mean you playing B locrian. Also A minor is the relative minor, not parallel.

Meh...my mistake but still it is A minor and is derived from C major.
Quote by Tyler Durden
It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything.

Erowid
#32
Quote by RockGuitar92
Meh...my mistake but still it is A minor and is derived from C major.
In my opinion, it's better to look at scales in terms of their parallel major, instead of their relative major. If you look at their relative major you're looking at a scale with the same notes, but a different tonic, and I think it's not the best way to visualize it.

That being said, you should understand how the modes relate to each other in terms of relative scales.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#33
Wait...So is there a such thing as, say a lydian scale? Or is that just used to describe what note the song is based upon?
#34
Quote by d1sturbed4eva
Wait...So is there a such thing as, say a lydian scale? Or is that just used to describe what note the song is based upon?
Yes there is. A song which uses the notes A B C D E F and G and resolves to F is in the key of F lydian and uses the F lydian scale.

P.S. Sorry if all of the things I'm saying only confuse you more. When it comes to theory I'm not good at explaining things simply.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#35
So if a song used F lydian you take the notes from that to construct the scale? I thought it didn't matter what note you started with, just what notes the scale consists of. Can't you just play the C major scale and revolve around F?
#36
Quote by d1sturbed4eva
So if a song used F lydian you take the notes from that to construct the scale? I thought it didn't matter what note you started with, just what notes the scale consists of. Can't you just play the C major scale and revolve around F?


Then it would be called F lydian. All of the notes and scale shapes of C major are the same as those for F lydian. Just in the context where F is the tonal center its name is F lydian, while in the context where C is the tonal center, its name is C major.
#37
Quote by isaac_bandits
Then it would be called F lydian. All of the notes and scale shapes of C major are the same as those for F lydian. Just in the context where F is the tonal center its name is F lydian, while in the context where C is the tonal center, its name is C major.


But if you're just straight up playing scales, you don't usually use a note more then the others so how could you be play a lydian scale?
#38
Quote by d1sturbed4eva
But if you're just straight up playing scales, you don't usually use a note more then the others so how could you be play a lydian scale?
In most music, you don't just play scales. Even if the lead does just play 7 notes successively up the neck and back down again, the tonic is still usually implied by the rhythm.

Unless I misunderstood your question.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#39
When I think of scales I think of shapes like 24,124,134,134,24,12. Then you take the notes from the scale to write the song. I know that you can move to another position but...yeah. I don't know.
#40
Quote by d1sturbed4eva
When I think of scales I think of shapes like 24,124,134,134,24,12. Then you take the notes from the scale to write the song. I know that you can move to another position but...yeah. I don't know.


Scales aren't shapes though...
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