#1
Hello everyone, i searched around the internet for ages...but I couldn't find anything useful on this subject.

So we had a drummer that used an electronic kit, and that was great for practices in my bassist's garage. It wasn't THAT loud and we could hear things fine. We also used an old karaoke machine for vocals. Everyone could hear everything fine.

Now, we have a drummer with a real drumset and it's pretty freaking loud. I also have a 200 watt randall amp now and my bassist has a 75 watt GK combo amp. We can all get loud enough to where we can all hear each other, but the karaoke machine had to go. So i talked to my dad, and he had another, more powerful karaoke machine we could use, with external speakers (I'll get the machine and speaker info if they're needed) It can get pretty loud with one mic, but the second you plug in two mics and use them, the feedback goes crazy.

We've been unable to adjust the EQ to where it can stop doing this out loud volumes (which is what we need it for) and now i'm considering getting a moderate sized PA system for vocal duties. (The garage is about 20X25 or something)

Here is the setup for practice:
http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x243/kamrankhan2170/?action=view&current=PracticeSpace.jpg

My questions are
1. Is this a good idea?
2. How many watts should this be? Any reccomendations?

Thanks guys
#3
are the mics pointing towards the speakers????
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#4
i think 200Watts of guitar power is too much to be fair ...... 100-120 is good enough you want the bass amp to be at least double the wattage of the guitar amp aswell.... well thats what ive heard and read
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#5
- Make sure the mic's are pointing away from the speakers

- Maybe poing the speakers towards the garage door and close the door; The reflections from the garage door may be loud enough to hear back.

- Try locating the frequency of which the speakers are feeding back and take out of the sound using EQ.

- If you are using an external mixer. Use the monitor input for the speakers and put the mixer through the kareoke machine as a power amp.
#6
That sounds solid, now you're just going to have to convince your neigbours that this really is a good idea.
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#7
I'd try and isolate the issue with the karaoke machine you're using. More power will not solve feedback problems, if anything it will just make them louder. If your set up works fine with a single mic, but you're only getting a problem when adding a second mic, I wouldn't see that as a reason to spend money on something you don't need. I'd have to know some more details about the machine itself to make any diagnosis about what the problem could be.
#8
I don't know if you guys know how the feedback is created through the microphones? So i'll just put it here just incase TS doesn't. Sorry If I seem pedantic.

Feedback through microphones is caused through the frequency coming through from the vocals bouncing off the surfaces and re-creating the same frequency back through the microphone.

Isolate reflections or EQ the frequency out.
#9
Thanks for the replies, guys.

-the mics are pointing away from the karaoke machine.

-how do i go about finding the frequency of the feedback? And would we turn the slider switch up or down?

-This is the machine we use

-I don't use all 200 watts. I'm pretty sure that would blow the tiles off the roof, and not to mention our ears would no longer function (we're using heavy duty hearos during band practice, so the sound is way quieter.)

-The mics only have an on-off setting, so we can't control the volumes on the mic's themselves. Would getting ashotgun mic(like those mics that only get sound from one direction) work?

-Yes, 75 watts is enough, i can hear him fine. We don't turn up everything full blast (thank god)
Last edited by The Spoon at Nov 29, 2009,
#10
The Slider I assume is the fader, and that won't effect the frequency, the gain alters that.

If the EQ is on slider, is the feedback high pitched, or low pitched? Alter the sliders one at a time on the left hand side fully down and see if that gets rid of the EQ, if not move on to the next one. Start off with the EQ all down and if it's still feeding back the Power Amp isn't good enough.
#11
What's a fader?

On the machine it says "Music EQ" above the slider switches. The feedback is high pitched. So do we leave the slider down if it's still making that noise or move the slider to its original position and then try a new one?
#13
how about get a real setup for the mics instead of karaoke machines lol
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#14
^ That will be the best option. If you don't want to spend a fortune, Behringer will do the job, not particularly beautiful, but should be alright for practicing and on a budget as well.
#15
Well that's what i was asking, but I wasn't sure if a completely new set up was needed.

I'll try this out and see if it works. If not i'll be looking into a new PA system (which means i'll be coming back to this thread for reccomendations )
#16
If you are getting feedback then you are too loud. This is physics not just opinion, sorry. There are tweaks you can do to squeeze an extra couple of decibels out of the vocals before you feedback by eq'ing and placing mics and amps carefully and adding heavy drapes to the walls to cut down standing waves and reflections but sooner or later at the volumes you are playing at you will have to turn down. The best/cheapest way of reducing this problem is to buy better mics designed to reduce feedback rather than replacing the vocal amp which we know is loud enough because it feeds back. Shure sm58's are great and cost £70'ish and you'll still be using them when you are rich and famous.

If it is any consolation we've all been there, we start with practice amps and borrowed gear then you can afford something decent and having paid for 200W you want to use it so you turn it up. Drummers in the same way want to show how dynamic they can be and suddenly you are all competing to be heard.

You've got to turn down and the drummer has to get some pads. If you operate at this volume in what is a tiny space then your mics will be feeding back because they are picking up more drum, bass and guitar then vocals. When you want to practice at gig levels you are going to have to find a school hall or community hall of some sort to practice in.

Try these links
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/gear_maintenance/making_it_loud.html
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/the_guide_to/the_guide_to_pa_part_one_-_a_first_pa.html

cheers
Last edited by Phil Starr at Dec 2, 2009,
#17
Quote by Phil Starr
If you are getting feedback then you are too loud. This is physics not just opinion, sorry. There are tweaks you can do to squeeze an extra couple of decibels out of the vocals before you feedback by eq'ing and placing mics and amps carefully and adding heavy drapes to the walls to cut down standing waves and reflections but sooner or later at the volumes you are playing at you will have to turn down. The best/cheapest way of reducing this problem is to buy better mics designed to reduce feedback rather than replacing the vocal amp which we know is loud enough because it feeds back. Shure sm58's are great and cost £70'ish and you'll still be using them when you are rich and famous.

If it is any consolation we've all been there, we start with practice amps and borrowed gear then you can afford something decent and having paid for 200W you want to use it so you turn it up. Drummers in the same way want to show how dynamic they can be and suddenly you are all competing to be heard.

You've got to turn down and the drummer has to get some pads. If you operate at this volume in what is a tiny space then your mics will be feeding back because they are picking up more drum, bass and guitar then vocals. When you want to practice at gig levels you are going to have to find a school hall or community hall of some sort to practice in.

Try these links
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/gear_maintenance/making_it_loud.html
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/the_guide_to/the_guide_to_pa_part_one_-_a_first_pa.html

cheers


If it's too loud for the system that is. Which from the Kareoke machine, will be.
#18
Quote by Phil Starr
If you are getting feedback then you are too loud. This is physics not just opinion, sorry. There are tweaks you can do to squeeze an extra couple of decibels out of the vocals before you feedback by eq'ing and placing mics and amps carefully and adding heavy drapes to the walls to cut down standing waves and reflections but sooner or later at the volumes you are playing at you will have to turn down. The best/cheapest way of reducing this problem is to buy better mics designed to reduce feedback rather than replacing the vocal amp which we know is loud enough because it feeds back. Shure sm58's are great and cost £70'ish and you'll still be using them when you are rich and famous.

If it is any consolation we've all been there, we start with practice amps and borrowed gear then you can afford something decent and having paid for 200W you want to use it so you turn it up. Drummers in the same way want to show how dynamic they can be and suddenly you are all competing to be heard.

You've got to turn down and the drummer has to get some pads. If you operate at this volume in what is a tiny space then your mics will be feeding back because they are picking up more drum, bass and guitar then vocals. When you want to practice at gig levels you are going to have to find a school hall or community hall of some sort to practice in.

Try these links
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/gear_maintenance/making_it_loud.html
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/the_guide_to/the_guide_to_pa_part_one_-_a_first_pa.html

cheers

Sweet, thanks for the reply!

It's not a competition for who wants to be the loudest, really. The 200W amp is my bassists, and I actually prefer playing quieter when I can.

Since the edition of a real drummer, we've had to make all these changes with our equipment. It was kind of all of a sudden too, so the switch to a real drumset wasn't very smooth.

Our drummer does use pads, and it's still pretty loud. Of course, it's much quieter, but it's loud enough to make our karaoke machine produce feedback. Do you have any suggestions for pads that are better?

Thanks again.
#19
You've got to turn down and the drummer has to get some pads. If you operate at this volume in what is a tiny space then your mics will be feeding back because they are picking up more drum, bass and guitar then vocals. When you want to practice at gig levels you are going to have to find a school hall or community hall of some sort to practice in.


Agreed. Turn it down.

Our drummer pads his heads with a rubber mesh fabric that was used to line the dish cupboards in the kitchen. He cut pieces out in circles that matched the diameter of his heads. It lets him play away without forcing the rest of us to try and match his volume.

The rest of us play with a 75W head/cab that also doubles as our PA (vox and 1+ guitars run into a mixer then to amp), a 75w combo, and a 15w amp. Sometimes we even skip using the mics depending on the song. By keeping it toned down a little it saves our hearing and we can play until 2:00 AM without getting the cops called by neighbors.

I have a better PA, but hauling a pair of twin 15" JBL's doesn't make for easy practice travel and setup.
#20
Interesting, is there a specific name for that type of fabric? Or brand or something so I can search for it online?
#21
oh and i hope it doesn't get cold where you live.

we had a practice last year in the garage when it was 4 degrees out. THAT SUCKED
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#22
I'm in Arizona. It's really nice in the winter, but come summer time, we're pretty much dead (and probably well done) meat.