#1
So pit, awhile back I started a petition in our Texas high school with ridiculous dress code standards that said "We the undersigned hereby petition the Stephenville Independent School District to revise its policies regarding male facial hair and hair length. The current policies promote a double standard and hinder individual freedom of expression." I went around school getting signatures in a peaceful manner and put it away when teachers asked me to, but at the end of the day I was called to the office and they called the head principal in to talk to me and say I couldn't circulate a petition in school and that I had to get signatures out of school as opposed to in school. But tonight I have been studying supreme court cases for gov't class and found that Tinker v. Des Moines defines students rights in schools and stated that the "Tinkers" could wear armbands in protest of Vietnam. Now i know that we have to give up some constitutional rights in some areas to ensure freedom in other aspects, especially in high school, but a petition, not only being a right defined in the 1st amendment, is a form of protest which I believe is defined in the Tinker case. So I was wondering what the pit's thoughts on the matter were.

TL;DR Started a petition in high school to revise dress code policies, got told I couldn't petition in school. But in the Tinker v. Des Moines case, students are guaranteed 1st amendment rights in many cases in school. Is it constitutional for them to not let me petition?

FYI - I have 300 signatures as of now
Last edited by jimmyslashpage at Dec 4, 2009,
#3
Sack up and cut your hair.

But they shouldn't be able to stop you from just circulating a petition. They can, however, ignore your petition regardless of how many signatures you get. So really it's useless
Quote by ThinLizzyFan
I love you



Who's in a bunker?
Who's in a bunker?
Women and children first
And the children first
And the children
#4
Quote by jimmyslashpage
Now i know that we have to give up some constitutional rights in some areas to ensure freedom in other aspects,

wat

[IN PHIL WE TRUST]


Quote by Trowzaa
I only play bots. Bots never abandon me. (´・ω・`)

#5
Tell your local news station that your school is being unpatritotic by not giving you freedom to petition in school or some bullshit like that.
#7
Quote by namesroverrated
Sack up and cut your hair.

But they shouldn't be able to stop you from just circulating a petition. They can, however, ignore your petition regardless of how many signatures you get. So really it's useless


they said I could take it before the school board and I actually have a school board member's signature. and I'm just saying let us grow our hair out a little more, not like waist length on guys, right now it has to above the earlobes, collar and eyebrows. But I would atleast like to say I tried
#9
Quote by jimmyslashpage
they said I could take it before the school board and I actually have a school board member's signature. and I'm just saying let us grow our hair out a little more, not like waist length on guys, right now it has to above the earlobes, collar and eyebrows. But I would atleast like to say I tried

You'd be much better off getting it in writing from administration that if you reach a number of signatures greater than X% of the school population, they have to adopt the change. As of now they probably just expect the school board to respond with "Aw, it's so cute that you guys did a whole official petition and everything. Let's table it and get on to the budget proposal now, eh?"

[IN PHIL WE TRUST]


Quote by Trowzaa
I only play bots. Bots never abandon me. (´・ω・`)

#10
Quote by jimmyslashpage
hinder individual freedom of expression


it's just hair, kid
If you're a hot chick you've probably got a good chance with the lead singer or guitar player, If you're a little bit overweight, you should probably go for the drummer. If you're a dude, go for the bass player
#11
Quote by Lt. Shinysides
this.


sir, your petition is a sham



let me put that in a different light, for instance, freedom of speech isn't unlimited... libel, slander, fighting words, yelling "fire" in a theater, speech that presents clear and present danger, etc. are not protected by the constitution. So we have to sacrifice the right to spread slander to ensure the protection of the free speech we enjoy.

and why is my petition a sham?
#12
petitions are pointless, don't waste your time in protecting your values since society will merely rape you and destroy them.
#13
Quote by denfilade
May I ask what this double standard is?


faculty are allowed to grow facial hair, the super intendent has quite the nice stache
#14
your probably right, but are the rewards worth it? their gonna fight you all the way on this and its probably not worth the battle although it is admirable of you. if your in like your last year or so i'd just say **** it and cut my hair seeing as how it only has to be like that for a little longer. if your younger than that then maybe boycott? not like not going to school but just get everyone that signed it to grow their hair or whatever, because its not like their gonna bring a barber in to cut 300 kids hair
Quote by gatechballer
SoLgEr is the ****ing man!!!!!
#15
My school district's got the same thing. They also place more emphasis on it than actual academic work. Sad.
#16
Quote by vash_08
it's just hair, kid


well there always posters in school like "be yourself!" and "there's no harmony if everyone sings the same note". we have been seeing those since kindergarten, just seems odd
#17
This is why I like college. People laugh when you suggest a dress code/hair length. And they actually listen to you. Why? You're paying their salaries, or usually your parents/scholarships are.
#18
In that supreme court case, the armbands were passive protest. You are actively doing something.

Plus, the rule about getting signatures off campus applys to everyone, including students.

I think that you have a good idea, but nothing much will come of it. It's just a highschool dress code. But I wish you luck anyway.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
#19
Quote by rockingamer2
In that supreme court case, the armbands were passive protest. You are actively doing something.

Plus, the rule about getting signatures off campus applys to everyone, including students.

I think that you have a good idea, but nothing much will come of it. It's just a highschool dress code. But I wish you luck anyway.


Hmm, well I thought about the passive thing, but I was just wondering what rights were protected in the case.....and what do you mean the signatures off campus??

But thanks for the wish of luck
#20
Quote by jimmyslashpage
Hmm, well I thought about the passive thing, but I was just wondering what rights were protected in the case.....and what do you mean the signatures off campus??

But thanks for the wish of luck


Have you ever gotten a mini bible from someone outside of the school? Or someone gave you a piece of paper talking about the how bad the army is? The people who do this have to stay off school grounds (In my experience, they were on the sidewalk). The off school grounds policy would apply to signature gatherers as well, even if they were students.

So your best bet would probably to wait outside the main entrance and get people sign the petition there. If that gives you trouble, go across the street. You could also broadcast this on Facebook or Myspace to make finding signers easier to find.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
#21
Your attempt is admirable, but I simply can't see your school's administration agreeing to change. If I were you, I'd just get all the people who signed it to all grow out their hair, as a poster above suggested. Best of luck.
#23
Quote by namesroverrated
They can, however, ignore your petition regardless of how many signatures you get. So really it's useless



This.


Even if they let you I don't see it making a difference.


But I disagree that wearing arm bands is the same as your situation. You are soliciting to others. Arm bands are not solicitation. People are not going around asking people to wear them. It is a choice. You're going around asking people to sign. A completely different situation the way I see it.
#24








I see a powerful lineage in the works. TS is on to something here.
I predict conflict will erupt. Things will get dare I say... hairy >.>
#25
Quote by jimmyslashpage
Now i know that we have to give up some constitutional rights in some areas to ensure freedom in other aspects, especially in high school, but a petition, not only being a right defined in the 1st amendment, is a form of protest which I believe is defined in the Tinker case.
as mentioned, the armbands were a passive means of protest. circulation a petition requires activity. this can be deemed as disruptive to the other activities that should be occurring during school time.

your school admin won't have any difficulty defending their position on this one.
Meadows
Quote by Jackal58
I release my inner liberal every morning when I take a shit.
Quote by SK8RDUDE411
I wont be like those jerks who dedicate their beliefs to logic and reaosn.
#27
yes, you can petition, however it won't do you any good, since you can't vote, they wont take your petition seriously.
make Industrial and/or experimental electronic music? Join my group!

Last.fm
#28
Quote by Zaphikh


One stood against tyranny

One stood against injustice

Many stood against corruption

And now TS fights against the man for his rights to grow facial hair.
#29
It's the same deal in my school. I'm assuming you go to a private school. If you do, by agreeing to pay tuition and go to this privately owned school, you (your parents) sign a contract and agree to forfeit any rights, including constitutionally guaranteed ones. While you're at school, the administrators are legally your guardians and can make any rules they choose. They can search your property for no reason, stifle your freedom of speech and press, and deny you due process.

I did a lot of investigating into this for a piece about student rights I was writing for the school paper. Their conditions are, if you choose to go to their school, then you choose to follow their rules, and you choose to forfeit constitutional rights, and your parents sign a contract to guarantee that. Supreme court cases like tinker don't apply, there's actually supreme court cases that back up private schools' right to do this. If they tell you to stop, there's nothing you can do.

People in my school have tried to circulate petitions for various causes. They aren't stopped, but the administration looks at the petition, sees a bunch of names on a piece of paper, and then throws the list away. There is absolutely nothing obligating them to do anything about a petition. To them, it's a meaningless sheet of paper with names on it.

It's messed up, but that's the way it is
Last edited by FunDunn at Dec 4, 2009,
#30
Quote by SomeoneYouKnew
as mentioned, the armbands were a passive means of protest. circulation a petition requires activity. this can be deemed as disruptive to the other activities that should be occurring during school time.

your school admin won't have any difficulty defending their position on this one.


Just my $.02, but you're treating it like his petition is his form of protest. I think TS is looking for a means to an end without the need for such a protest. If it comes down to it, I agree with what someone else said. If you want it to work, all the people who signed the petition need to make independent choices to have long hair/disobey the current dress code. This would be a passive form of protesting. After it becomes an issue, the school board will be much more likely to work out the terms of a petition.

Until the school board agrees to terms regarding a petition, anything you offer them will be nothing more than names on a piece of paper. Also, don't be surprised if the terms involve age requirements (18+) or other means of restricting actual students' signatures being applicable on the petition. The board feels this code is necessary, and you have to show that there is a necessity for it to change. Otherwise, they'll see no reason to do so. "It restricts our freedom" isn't good enough. They'll just blow you off. Find a good angle from which you can push the issue and you'll be much more successful.
#31
Quote by blasphemy101
Just my $.02, but you're treating it like his petition is his form of protest.
Nope. I'm saying it's an activity. Schools can and do limit the activities students can engage in during school time, on school property. Simple as.
Meadows
Quote by Jackal58
I release my inner liberal every morning when I take a shit.
Quote by SK8RDUDE411
I wont be like those jerks who dedicate their beliefs to logic and reaosn.
#32
Quote by SomeoneYouKnew
Nope. I'm saying it's an activity. Schools can and do limit the activities students can engage in during school time, on school property. Simple as.


Oh. Well, I guess I misunderstood. It just seemed like a couple people were comparing his petition to wearing the armbands as forms of protest. I agree with ya, then. It's like the whole pledge thing
#33
Actually, if you read a few other cases, or just Texas law, you'll find that at school, a student, regardless of being 18 or a minor, has NO CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS whatsoever.

Petition Fail.
#34
When ever I went to school in Chicago...our school dress code was this : Males - Either white, red, or light blue short...had to be a turtle neck...and blue/black dress pants. We had to wear black dress shoes too...plus we had to wear a belt, and tuck our shirts in. Girls were the same too but they didn't have to wear a belt or tuck in their shirts, but they could also wear dresses. Was pretty gay...but shit atleast I knew what I was going to wear every day lol...but when I went to school in SD they had no uniforms. But shit its not all that special when you see the same people every day for a year.
Pink Floyd is Teh Best


Xbox Gamertag = Nick Schro

Lets blaze, put this in your sig if you want to get high
#35
In Australia just about every school has uniform
Chelsea FC



Quote by Blues Hippie
As for the swim team member that drowned, it just means the swim team just got a lot better. Same with him too, it's time to move on, the weakest link is gone...
#36
Quote by TOMMYB22
In Australia just about every school has uniform

Same in Ireland, but a code for hair is different. I can take my uniform off after school, and it serves a few valid purposes for the school not related to a simple difference in taste. A ban on long and facial hair is a different matter, and not really on.
They tried in my school once to suspend a kid who bleached his hair, within the month over 50% of male students had bleached it.


TS: Just stand outside the school with the petition, informing people, including parents and other adults, why you aren't petitioning inside the school.
The school can ignore a petition, but it would be unwise to do so really. If a student body comes together with something that is comparatively undisrupted and seeks to make their voices heard on an issue that effects them it would be a foolish administrator that would just ignore it.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
Last edited by Ur all $h1t at Dec 4, 2009,
#37
The facial hair thing would really piss me off.... I mean, I'm 17, and when I shave at like 5 in the morning, I already have a five o'clock shadow by noon.