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#1
out to screw people over like everyone says? or are they just a bunch of poor fellows who are suffering financially because billy won't stop torrenting cds? They are kind of a necessary part of everything from licensing sound recordings on television to fund a band to even record their debut album.

go.
#2
It's not them that are hurting because Billy's torrenting cd's. It's smaller, well known bands (as opposed to bigger, well-known bands) who are hurting, as every sale on iTunes is another meal for them...
You can call me Aaron.


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#5
The main thing people seem to shout at them for is that they're making loads of money, and that's all that they think about.

Well, yeah.


It's business.
#6
Agree, its strictly a business. The top big named people dont give a rats a$$ about the music, all they care about is the cash flow going into their pockets. I dont think there out to screw you, just profit as much as they can off of you.
#7
In the business world, the main concern is how to maximize profit. I'm studying business and we're TAUGHT that a businesses priorities are (in ascending order):

Philanthropic Responsibilities
Ethical Responsibilities
Legal Responsibilities
Economic Responsibilities

So yeah, a businesses naturally doesn't care about how anyone fare, they want a profit first, then they care if it is legal, then they care if it is right or wrong then they start thinking about giving out money to those in need. So to answer your question, yes they are out to screw us over. Governments should regulate the way these goddamn things treat the population.

And about torrenting, in third-world countries, the average CD costs just as much as it does in developed countries. So for example, in Saudi Arabia, a music CD costs 60 riyals. Milk costs 5 riyals. So CDs are pretty fukin overpriced! And plus, most places don't even have record stores that would sell smaller bands. I'd be damned if i found a single technical death metal CD in all of the developing world. So imo, go torrenting!
#8
Quote by biga29
It's not them that are hurting because Billy's torrenting cd's. It's smaller, well known bands (as opposed to bigger, well-known bands) who are hurting, as every sale on iTunes is another meal for them...
Or you could argue that torrenting is opening up a new audience to said band for people who wouldn't have otherwise bought a CD from such a small band?

The reason major labels are often so resented is because they do see music as a business, a way to make money, and they often don't have their artists best interests at heart when they attempt to do so. They're not hiding under your bed at night, ready to steal all your money, they're more of a threat to the artists they sign.
#9
allegedly right now theyre making very little money from album sales, but theyll be making money from other sources i imagine.

theyre not trying to rip anyone off i dont think, its a business after all. they need to make money. unfortunately the music industry is one of the hardest to make a lot of profit in.
#10
illegal downloads will kill music. Just do recordings an put them on myspace if you want free advertising. If people like it theyl buy your cd, if your shit then noone will.
#11
Quote by Burningritual
illegal downloads will kill music. Just do recordings an put them on myspace if you want free advertising. If people like it theyl buy your cd, if your shit then noone will.



The fact that people download music they actually like sort of shits all over that.
#12
Quote by Burningritual
illegal downloads will kill music. Just do recordings an put them on myspace if you want free advertising. If people like it theyl buy your cd, if your shit then noone will.


But if you think about it this way: illegal downloads help people get into bands without spending or having to go to myspace to listen to low quality mp3s all the time. These people go to the band's gigs and buy merch which is from what I heard, a large portion of a band's money. This would influence more bands to go independent, or whatever you wanna call it, and maybe major labels will have to start caring about the artists.
Last edited by denfilade at Dec 4, 2009,
#13
Quote by Burningritual
illegal downloads will kill music. Just do recordings an put them on myspace if you want free advertising. If people like it theyl buy your cd, if your shit then noone will.

I disagree. I torrent a ton of music. By doing so, I've found countless bands that I now love. If I get to that point, I always go out and buy pretty much everything the band has, and I support them at shows and buy merchandise. Without illegal downloading, I wouldn't have heard about 90% of the bands that I have today.

It was the only task I would undertake...

I P R O G
...to reap the harvest that was mine


- [ P R O G - H E A D ? ] -
#14
Quote by BullonParade
allegedly right now theyre making very little money from album sales, but theyll be making money from other sources i imagine.

theyre not trying to rip anyone off i dont think, its a business after all. they need to make money. unfortunately the music industry is one of the hardest to make a lot of profit in.

Actually, the music industry is an oligopoly since only a handful of big companies own and run everything. Most "record labels" are subsidiaries of bigger ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Warner_Music_Group_labels
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Universal_Music_Group_labels

Just look at those lists. They're making a whole lot of money. The live music industry used to be dominated by Ticketmaster and Live Nation but now they decided to merge and if the merger goes through, they'll basically run the entire live music industry by themselves (btw, the merger was shot down in the UK, but it might still get through in the US).
#15
Quote by MetalGS3SE
I disagree. I torrent a ton of music. By doing so, I've found countless bands that I now love. If I get to that point, I always go out and buy pretty much everything the band has, and I support them at shows and buy merchandise. Without illegal downloading, I wouldn't have heard about 90% of the bands that I have today.

if everyone was like you it would be ok. sadly a lot of people get it free an will rarely even bother to go to a show and by merchandise etc
#16
Quote by webbtje
The fact that people download music they actually like sort of shits all over that.

how do you know if you like a band without hearing them 1st? people can search genres on myspace to find bands they potentially could like. Don't mean they need to get an entire album for free an then not end up buying it properly.
i just shit on your face an i had one hell of a curry last night
#17
Quote by Burningritual
how do you know if you like a band without hearing them 1st? people can search genres on myspace to find bands they potentially could like. Don't mean they need to get an entire album for free an then not end up buying it properly.
i just shit on your face an i had one hell of a curry last night


It's a black and white kinda thing I guess...

First time I heard August Burns Red, I didn't think much of them until a friend gave me a pirated copy of one of their albums. Then I fell in love with the music and bought a bunch of their stuff.

So either it can be really beneficial for the band or either really damaging.
#19
Their first priority is to make money. If they were able to make the same money without screwing anyone over, they would. It's just that they want a lot of money, and they feel the only way to make that money is to take advantage of artists (and sometimes, but not as often, consumers). They're not "out to screw people over", they just do so in their everlasting quest for mass amounts of money.
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#22
Quote by Limaj_daas
In the business world, the main concern is how to maximize profit. I'm studying business and we're TAUGHT that a businesses priorities are (in ascending order):

Philanthropic Responsibilities
Ethical Responsibilities
Legal Responsibilities
Economic Responsibilities

So yeah, a businesses naturally doesn't care about how anyone fare, they want a profit first, then they care if it is legal, then they care if it is right or wrong then they start thinking about giving out money to those in need. So to answer your question, yes they are out to screw us over. Governments should regulate the way these goddamn things treat the population.

And about torrenting, in third-world countries, the average CD costs just as much as it does in developed countries. So for example, in Saudi Arabia, a music CD costs 60 riyals. Milk costs 5 riyals. So CDs are pretty fukin overpriced! And plus, most places don't even have record stores that would sell smaller bands. I'd be damned if i found a single technical death metal CD in all of the developing world. So imo, go torrenting!


A very good post about how businesses run in general.

I am a south african and a CD here costs 140 - 200 on average rand. That is two/three days full pay for the majority of SA citizens to buy a Cd that simply is unaffordable.

So are they out to screw us - No it is just business and the way that the world works.
Does that make it right - No
Is billy downloading the music harming the average small artist - yes
Is it the only way that some billy's will have access to the music though - yes
Grooving to the Music




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#23
Quote by Burningritual
how do you know if you like a band without hearing them 1st? people can search genres on myspace to find bands they potentially could like. Don't mean they need to get an entire album for free an then not end up buying it properly.
i just shit on your face an i had one hell of a curry last night



Because if things can be downloaded, they will be downloaded. It's as simple as that. Not everyone has the funds to buy music, or they just don't want to spend money. Not everyone thinks like you.
#24
Quote by Nite`
A very good post about how businesses run in general.

I am a south african and a CD here costs 140 - 200 on average rand. That is two/three days full pay for the majority of SA citizens to buy a Cd that simply is unaffordable.

So are they out to screw us - No it is just business and the way that the world works.
Does that make it right - No
Is billy downloading the music harming the average small artist - yes
Is it the only way that some billy's will have access to the music though - yes

Businesses should regulate their prices overseas... like right now in Canada I buy CDs for 15 dollars, so it isn't too bad. That's like an hour or an hour and a half of work. They should match it for developing countries... oh wait, due to neo-liberal policies being imposed on those countries by the IMF, the usual average laborer earns $2/hour. Conclusion... the problem is bigger than the music industry. Government regulation comes into play as well as the World System Theory.
#25
Quote by webbtje
Because if things can be downloaded, they will be downloaded. It's as simple as that. Not everyone has the funds to buy music, or they just don't want to spend money. Not everyone thinks like you.

not everyone has funds to buy a ferrari would you go an steal one
#26
Quote by Burningritual
not everyone has funds to buy a ferrari would you go an steal one



So pray tell me, at what point did I say 'I' in either of my posts?
#27
Quote by biga29
It's not them that are hurting

No, it's them as well. Companies such as EMI have taken a pounding in the last few years.
Call me Batman.
#28
Quote by webbtje
So pray tell me, at what point did I say 'I' in either of my posts?

If people in general don't have money for a ferrari is it ok to go an steal one.
#29
Quote by Burningritual
If people in general don't have money for a ferrari is it ok to go an steal one.



For fuck's sake, child:


Did I ever say it was OK? Yes or no? Last time I checked, I posted back at this:

illegal downloads will kill music. Just do recordings an put them on myspace if you want free advertising. If people like it theyl buy your cd, if your shit then noone will.


This is clearly not the case because bands that put songs up on myspace get people downloading their stuff all the time. I fail to see why this is difficult to grasp.

Did I say it was OK? Did I say it is morally justifiable? No. Learn to read.
Last edited by webbtje at Dec 4, 2009,
#30
I torrent to find good music, if i like the band i then buy the CD. Its kind of like previewing for me.
SlappyMcGee don't you fail.
#31
Quote by webbtje
For fuck's sake, child:


Did I ever say it was OK? Yes or no?


That is what your implying. not a direct quote but you said People may not have the money or just may not want to pay for songs so downloading for free is ok.
I want money but don't want to work for it so il go on the dole. If everyone else had that selfish attitude everything would be ****ed.
I don't think its right, especially with smaller bands, that they put a lot of time effort and money into recordings only for these to be available, illegally, on the internet.
Very few bands get recording paid for on their first album, so the people losing out are the people who made the music and how is that fair because some idle twat just doesn't want to pay it.
#32
Quote by Burningritual
That is what your implying. not a direct quote but you said People may not have the money or just may not want to pay for songs so downloading for free is ok.
I want money but don't want to work for it so il go on the dole. If everyone else had that selfish attitude everything would be ****ed.
I don't think its right, especially with smaller bands, that they put a lot of time effort and money into recordings only for these to be available, illegally, on the internet.
Very few bands get recording paid for on their first album, so the people losing out are the people who made the music and how is that fair because some idle twat just doesn't want to pay it.

An in turns of myspace it should be up there for people to listen to as advertisement but not download unless there paying.

k i ****ed that edit up
#33
Quote by Burningritual
That is what your implying. not a direct quote but you said People may not have the money or just may not want to pay for songs so downloading for free is ok.


Stopped there.

That's certainly not what I was implying. Remember the bit where I said other people don't think like you? Bear that in mind, considering that's what I'm actually talking about. Note how a lot of smaller bands get big off downloading. Remember those guys, the Arctic Monkeys?

Quote by Burningritual

Very few bands get recording paid for on their first album, so the people losing out are the people who made the music and how is that fair because some idle twat just doesn't want to pay it.


Also note how bands, particularly smaller bands, make pretty much shit all from album sales.
Last edited by webbtje at Dec 4, 2009,
#34
Quote by BullonParade
theyre not trying to rip anyone off i dont think, its a business after all. they need to make money. unfortunately the music industry is one of the hardest to make a lot of profit in.

every business is out to 'rip you off'. They want as much as possible in return for as little as possible.

whether they're successful at it is a matter of opinion.

The industry is moaning about an outdated business model failing. Instead of moving with the times they're attempting to put measures into place to make media copyright infringement a huge deal.

Google doesn't offer you products for sale yet it's the biggest company on the planet. Spotify and last.fm don't require you to pay anything, they're doing well at last check.

The industry is essentially complaining that they're outdated and that artificial measures should be put in place to keep them relevant. fuck them.
Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You.

Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#35
The business model of using a couple of good songs and music videos to promote mediocre albums is definitively a screw job.
#36
every business is out to 'rip you off'. They want as much as possible in return for as little as possible.

whether they're successful at it is a matter of opinion.

The industry is moaning about an outdated business model failing. Instead of moving with the times they're attempting to put measures into place to make media copyright infringement a huge deal.

Google doesn't offer you products for sale yet it's the biggest company on the planet. Spotify and last.fm don't require you to pay anything, they're doing well at last check.

The industry is essentially complaining that they're outdated and that artificial measures should be put in place to keep them relevant. fuck them.
No idea about last.fm, but Spotify have yet to turn a profit.
#37
Quote by webbtje
Stopped there.

That's certainly not what I was implying. Remember the bit where I said other people don't think like you? Bear that in mind, considering that's what I'm actually talking about. Note how a lot of smaller bands get big off downloading. Remember those guys, the Arctic Monkeys?


in that case i sincerely apologise
But bands didn't need that before to get noticed. I know a fair few that have spent a considerable amount on a first album ( some better than others, varying label sizes etc) that have many people claiming they are fans of the band an able to draw decent crowds but get **** all through album sales. For bands that don't have major funding, or involve rich kids who can get money from daddy, ANY sale they miss out on in the early stages is a massive kick in the balls. Fair enough if they are good enough theyl probably make it anyway, but if you lose to much money and are skint anyway it may seem like to much of a gamble to start work on a 2nd album which naturally you would want to be better produced etc you dont hear about that bands that had something about them but didnt have the financial backing to follow it up.
Im from burton/Derby in England an the music scene here is dead. Eventually the band in im will NEED to get away from here to achieve anything. We've looked at gigs in London an further south where there seems to be more of a scene but the cost of this is too much for us. You gotta consider petrol money, hotels etc I know it don't seem like a lot but it is to us. It wouldn't be so bad if we got put on a gig an people had heard a couple of tracks on myspace (which they couldn't download) an then bought our cd at the gig. But more realisticly theyd hear us on myspace, download our stuff for free then not buy the cd as they already have it. That may not make a difference to a band thats already made it but for someone just starting out, as i said before, any loss of earnings hits you hard
#38
They put a lot of money into marketing their artists so of course they're gonna think about themselves first when recouping money. They shouldn't be trying to combat illegal downloading because it clearly isn't working, they need to start working with the downloaders like Radiohead did. They aren't really that essential to the music industry any more anyway, since it's so easy to diy now.
#40
I already made a thread on this once, it turns out we are killing the music industry

and I swear we are not gonna be able to kill those ****ers fast enough
VERY METAL!
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