#1
House mates came back with loud TV and several others. At 2am. They ruined my plan of an early night and I now can't sleep.

So, Star Wars. I re-watched the prequel trilogy not so long ago and they harp on about the Republic and democracy, but that's bull. The Jedi are supposed to be awesome smart, they are the protectors of that? They're super smart and should be above limiting themselves to a single political ideology. They should have anarchist, Marxist, fascist, etc factions. That'll be so much more interesting.

This is one of the reasons why some forms of science fiction in literature is more interesting; it stretches this.

Discuss.
#3
Not really the jedi stand more for liberty than intelligence, they are basically the Republic's elite soldiers first and philosophers second.

Quote by archangels666
You expect George Lucas to actually write something intelligent about politics?


Don't be silly, Craigo.


He actually did, watch the prequal trilogy and watch the rise of Darth Sideus. He does it very similarly to Hitler, and that whole part of Star Wars is kind of a cautionary against emergency powers in government.
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Last edited by tayroar at Dec 5, 2009,
#4
Quote by tayroar
Not really the jedi stand more for liberty than intelligence, they are basically the Republic's elite soldiers first and philosophers second.

Exactly! Not just Philosophers, people who know the force, but whatever.

They're really smart people, shouldn't that enable them to question their role as Guardians of the Republic?
#5
When Sith was released a lot of people said it was about Bush, the Patriot Act, Iraq, etc.

And we all know about the first movies WWII connections.
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Last edited by element4433 at Dec 5, 2009,
#6
They are there more so to make sure there is a balance. They are peacekeepers, they are not there to question/decide the politics of the place, just to make sure it dosen't burn down (which they failed at).

EDIT: If a Jedi dosen't like the republic, there is nothing stopping him/her from leaving the order I think.
Last edited by whitenihilist at Dec 5, 2009,
#7
Quote by Craigo
Exactly! Not just Philosophers, people who know the force, but whatever.

They're really smart people, shouldn't that enable them to question their role as Guardians of the Republic?


Well yes and no, they really want to establish stability more than anything and questioning stability puts in place instability into the system.
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#8
I think that stuff was just thrown in there to be hip with the times.

At least that whole "So this is how democracy dies? to roaring applause"
#9
Quote by tayroar
Well yes and no, they really want to establish stability more than anything and questioning stability puts in place instability into the system.

But wouldn't some Jedi think 'hey, wouldn't stability for everyone be installed if we turn the capitalist republic into a series of self determining socialist communes!' or 'wouldn't stability be better if there was no senate democracy but instead a good willed Guardian like in Plato's republic? A good ruler?'
#10
Quote by whitenihilist
They are there more so to make sure there is a balance. They are peacekeepers, they are not there to question/decide the politics of the place, just to make sure it dosen't burn down (which they failed at).

EDIT: If a Jedi dosen't like the republic, there is nothing stopping him/her from leaving the order I think.


This is true. In the expanded universe there were several jedi that didn't like not being allowed to love and feel and left the order, like that one guy in KOTOR. The thing about the order is that they are really strict and almost afraid of their power, they're not going to let some guy question the political agenda and then change it because they do have the power to change it.

Also, there is a fascist order of jedi, they're referred to as Dark Jedi, or more commonly Sith.

Quote by Craigo
But wouldn't some Jedi think 'hey, wouldn't stability for everyone be installed if we turn the capitalist republic into a series of self determining socialist communes!' or 'wouldn't stability be better if there was no senate democracy but instead a good willed Guardian like in Plato's republic? A good ruler?'


No, because their philosophy can be summarized as power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. They see themselves as protectors, they don't really let themselves have a political agenda. I mean even their political influence is more to insure stability than to change the political climate. They joined the rebels because they didn't see stability under a dark side influenced leader.
Due what you want as long as you vote Due!
Last edited by tayroar at Dec 5, 2009,
#11
Quote by tayroar
This is true. In the expanded universe there were several jedi that didn't like not being allowed to love and feel and left the order, like that one guy in KOTOR. The thing about the order is that they are really strict and almost afraid of their power, they're not going to let some guy question the political agenda and then change it because they do have the power to change it.

Also, there is a fascist order of jedi, they're referred to as Dark Jedi, or more commonly Sith.

If they're afraid of power, could they be fans of non-hierarchical anarcho-communism?
#12
Quote by tayroar
Not really the jedi stand more for liberty than intelligence, they are basically the Republic's elite soldiers first and philosophers second.


He actually did, watch the prequal trilogy and watch the rise of Darth Sideus. He does it very similarly to Hitler, and that whole part of Star Wars is kind of a cautionary against emergency powers in government.



The whole thing relates to hitler and nazi germany....thats y the bad guys are called storm troopers


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#15
Quote by Craigo
If they're afraid of power, could they be fans of non-hierarchical anarcho-communism?


They probably would, but to start a revolution when there is balance (unlike when Sideus ruled) it would be against the Order's rules.
Due what you want as long as you vote Due!
#16
Also the fact thay Jedi seem to fear change is apparent. They have a very old and stubborn way of doing things. A repulic system was something that has also worked for the Star Wars universe for a very very long time (evident in the existance of the "Old Republic")

Plus a Republic makes the most sense in a world where on Sith can control massive armies. It is supposed to be much harder turn a Republic into a Empire than most other governments.
#17
Quote by tayroar
They probably would, but to start a revolution when there is balance (unlike when Sideus ruled) it would be against the Order's rules.

They should of had a revolution.
#18
Quote by whitenihilist
Also the fact thay Jedi seem to fear change is apparent. They have a very old and stubborn way of doing things. A repulic system was something that has also worked for the Star Wars universe for a very very long time (evident in the existance of the "Old Republic")

Plus a Republic makes the most sense in a world where on Sith can control massive armies. It is supposed to be much harder turn a Republic into a Empire than most other governments.


Try and tell Julius Caesar that.
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#19
Quote by tayroar
Try and tell Julius Caesar that.



Gasp!


Ceasar = Palpatine?!?





It is a bigger jump than most others though. It is not easy to get 100's of star systems (or city-states in Ceasar's case) to hand over there power. You either have to be one hell of a demagouge or have fear on your side. He had both.

Hell, they didn't even have an army until Palpatine manipulated a way to justify it's creation.
#20
I think if the Jedi were anarcho-communists it would add a lot of unnecessary complication to the plot.
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#21
Quote by Craigo
If they're afraid of power, could they be fans of non-hierarchical anarcho-communism?

I don't think that anarcho commununism would bode well for economies based on goods from other planets. It seems that whoever controlled interstellar travel would have the universe by the balls in that sort of society.
#22
Quote by whitenihilist
Gasp!


Ceasar = Palpatine?!?





It is a bigger jump than most others though. It is not easy to get 100's of star systems (or city-states in Ceasar's case) to hand over there power. You either have to be one hell of a demagouge or have fear on your side. He had both.

Hell, they didn't even have an army until Palpatine manipulated a way to justify it's creation.


See, the thing about Republics though is they have these annoying little things called emergency powers. These powers, in times of emergency of course, allow one person to have absolute power through the course of the problem for the sake of quickness of action. The problem though is, I can't recall a time in history when emergency powers have been given back.
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#23
why'd you change your avatar craigo? I didn't recognize you.


also, in the books they have a lot more interesting politics. I think they dumbed em down for the movies so as to not bore the general public... or it could be because the books are generally written by people smarter than lucas


edit:
Quote by Craigo
They should of had a revolution.


should've as in should have. should of doesn't make sense


sorry, that's just one of those things
Last edited by The4thHorsemen at Dec 5, 2009,
#24
I just think the Jedi are stupid for not realising that bringing balance to the Force was a bad thing. You'd think with all their wisdom and such that even one of them would think "Hang on, we've got a whole temple full of Jedi on Coruscant, and thousands of other Jedi around the galaxy, and there's only a few Sith, maybe balance wouldnt be that great"
#25
Quote by littlephil
I just think the Jedi are stupid for not realising that bringing balance to the Force was a bad thing. You'd think with all their wisdom and such that even one of them would think "Hang on, we've got a whole temple full of Jedi on Coruscant, and thousands of other Jedi around the galaxy, and there's only a few Sith, maybe balance wouldnt be that great"

You can't be going around with an unbalanced force.
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'cause now we like to make
Weird Music
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#26
The jedi aren't angsty teens; That's why they aren't anarcho-communists


It'd be hard enough to ensure everyones rights were being respected etc. in a City of earth, let alone hundreds of planets spanning a whole galazy. The Jedi were protecters of the people, and a Republic was the best way to go about doing that.
#27
Quote by littlephil
I just think the Jedi are stupid for not realising that bringing balance to the Force was a bad thing. You'd think with all their wisdom and such that even one of them would think "Hang on, we've got a whole temple full of Jedi on Coruscant, and thousands of other Jedi around the galaxy, and there's only a few Sith, maybe balance wouldnt be that great"


That's the difference between the jedi and the Sith though. The Sith seek to destroy, while the Jedi seek to preserve, and even the Sith have their place in the universe.
Due what you want as long as you vote Due!
#28
Quote by tayroar
That's the difference between the jedi and the Sith though. The Sith seek to destroy, while the Jedi seek to preserve, and even the Sith have their place in the universe.

Yeah, but I doubt they would have done it had they known Anakin would become Vader.