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#1
I have not been playing guitar for very long (a whopping 3 months), but I have noticed that as far as well regarded guitar amplifiers go, full tube designs are the only way to go. Be it a Marshall JCM800 or MESA triple rectifier, they are all tube.

So I do not understand why people use an effects pedal like a Tubescreamer, Big Muff Pi, or DS-1 for distortion, which all use solid state devices for clipping. And they plug them into a 2000 dollar tube amplifier, making pretty much all the distortion tone coming from a sub 100 dollar box.
#2
What you don't know is that most of those $2,000 amps have solid state diodes in them as well. Basically there is no simple answer to this stuff; some tube amps are horrible and some solid states are incredible. Its more about the quality and efficiency of the components in the circuit and the design of the circuit itself than the type of components.
Quote by Cathbard
Quote by Raijouta
Unless its electronic drums.

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!
#3
1. No such thing as a solid-state pedal, it's digital.
2. The three pedals you mentioned are analog.
3. Most people get their lead tone from their amp and some boost it with a tubescreamer.
4. If you see a DS-1 in a good rig, it's most likely modded.

EDIT: ^ All of the above is wrong, I stand completely corrected and I see I've no idea what i'm talking about in this case. Sorry.

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Last edited by Zoso1994 at Dec 10, 2009,
#4
Not to mention the beauty of tube distortion is overdriving the tubes, TS9s and pedals of the such are used to push the signal enough to clip the tubes.
-Gear-
Mesa Triple Rectifier---Bogner/Line6 SpiderValve---Orange PPC 4x12

-Pedalboard/Rackmount-
Alesis MidiVerb4--BBE SonicMaximizer 442--Ibanez TS9
Boss DD-3--Morley Mark Tremonti Wah

-Guitars-
Ibanez ART-100
Ibanez S-470
#5
Who cares?

I use several fairly cheap overdrive pedals with a handwired tube amp and it sounds absolutely fantastic!


EDIT: Incidentally, 'solid state' is a term that only strictly applies to a amplifier (usually the power amp).
The 'mojo' of valve tone is in the power section more than anything else - there are hybrids out there with a non-valve preamp section that sound great (Spider Valve has a digital preamp tied to a valve power amp, and Peavey did a few hybrids models in the 90s).

That's precisely the same reason 'hybrids' like the Marshall AVT aren't considered to be tube amps.
Last edited by kyle62 at Dec 8, 2009,
#6
Quote by tubetime86
What you don't know is that most of those $2,000 amps have solid state diodes in them as well. Basically there is no simple answer to this stuff; some tube amps are horrible and some solid states are incredible. Its more about the quality and efficiency of the components in the circuit and the design of the circuit itself than the type of components.



This, and most people I know who use pedals like this with expensive tube amps use them to add to their tone, not inplace of the amp's distortion.
/rig
#7
Quote by Zoso1994
1. No such thing as a solid-state pedal, it's digital.
2. The three pedals you mentioned are analog.

3. Most people get their lead tone from their amp and some boost it with a tubescreamer.
4. If you see a DS-1 in a good rig, it's most likely modded.
jesus christ... do you even realize that these two contradict each other? I'm guess no, since you don't seem to have the slightest clue what digital, analog or solid state mean as you are wrong about all three.

To answer the TS's question:
You're getting too caught up in the tube vs. solid state thing, it keeps us from using common sense, if you have an overdrive pedal that sounds very good with a tube amp, common sense tells you that it would be stupid not to use it simply because it uses solid state components to generate it's distortion.

That being said, your amp is still the last step in your signal chain (well outside of the speaker), so any signal that you generate from the pedal is still heavily affected by the amp. So it's not like the same overdrive pedal is going to sound the same no matter what amp you put it through.
Last edited by al112987 at Dec 8, 2009,
#8
Same with me, I love adding a Ibanez Tube Screamer to my Peavey 5150's lead channel. Gives it a bit more grip.

Quote by al112987
Do you realize that those are directly contradictory?

No its not. He saying there are only two types of pedals.
Digital and Analog.

And three you mentioned happened to be analog.
Not even close to 'solidstate'.
-Gear-
Mesa Triple Rectifier---Bogner/Line6 SpiderValve---Orange PPC 4x12

-Pedalboard/Rackmount-
Alesis MidiVerb4--BBE SonicMaximizer 442--Ibanez TS9
Boss DD-3--Morley Mark Tremonti Wah

-Guitars-
Ibanez ART-100
Ibanez S-470
Last edited by FlyingPooooo at Dec 8, 2009,
#9
I would guess that your rectifier is solid-state.

Incidentally, there are a few pedals that have tube preamps in them. However, SS/Tube terminology does not really apply to pedals; they are typically referred to as analog/digital.
#10
Quote by FlyingPooooo
No its not. He saying there are only two types of pedals.
Digital and Analog.

And three you mentioned happened to be analog.
Not even close to 'solidstate'.

Two things:
1. TS referred to clipping circuits which use diodes, as opposed to tubes. These are found in pedals. They may not be called solid state, but they use a solid state clipping circuit.
2. I don't recommend getting into an electronics debate with 'al12xxxx,' as you will likely lose. In fact I'm guessing he is gonna tear this post a new one for my #1.
Quote by Cathbard
Quote by Raijouta
Unless its electronic drums.

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!
#11
Quote by Zoso1994
1. No such thing as a solid-state pedal, it's digital.
Translation... "I don't know what I'm talking about".
#12
Because pedals only modify the signal going into the amp, not the actual sound of the amp?

Use for dirt boxes include:
pushing the front end of the amp into more overdrive
a simple line boost
thickening up your tone
having a different distorted tone to what your amp currently has
making an easier switch from clean to distorted tones in live situations (especially on single channel amps or amps than have a shared EQ.)
wasting money

Meh. You say solid state like its a bad thing. Anything weather its solid state, digital, analogue, valve powered or driven by leprachauns has the potential to sound good, when built by the right people and sold to the right hands.
#13
Quote by Zoso1994
1. No such thing as a solid-state pedal, it's digital.
2. The three pedals you mentioned are analog.
3. Most people get their lead tone from their amp and some boost it with a tubescreamer.
4. If you see a DS-1 in a good rig, it's most likely modded.


Huh? I never said any of those pedals were digital. Solid-State does not soley refer to Flash memory based devices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_state_%28electronics%29

If they use the tubescreamer soley for clean signal boost that makes sense.

But for the DS-1, even if its modified, its still using transistors, silicon diodes (or transistor based opamps) instead of valves to create the distortion.
Last edited by tronester at Dec 8, 2009,
#14
I think what the TS is getting at is, yes there are some overdrive pedals with tubes in them, so why not use those over the regular or "solid state" pedals like the ones he listed. While he didn't use the correct terminology, I believe that's what he was getting at.

Quote by nightraven
i dont care if its got tubes or not

as long as it sounds good i'm gonna use it

i would take a bjf honey bee over one of those overhyped br00tal muddy metal tube distortion boxes ANY day


This exactly.

EDIT :
Quote by tronester
Huh? I never said any of those pedals were digital. Solid-State does not soley refer to Flash memory based devices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_state_%28electronics%29

If they use the tubescreamer soley for clean signal boost that makes sense.

But for the DS-1, even if its modified, its still using transistors, silicon diodes (or transistor based opamps) instead of valves to create the distortion.


I believe that a lot of people mainly want tube amps due to the warmth and amazing dynamics they have. That's why I love mine. It has life to it, and doesn't sound dull at all. Plus, some people don't like using pedals for their distortion, but a lot of the big names did, so that's how they replicate their sound to their liking.
Fender '04 Strat
MiM Sunburst with Maple Neck

Ibanez TS-808
Fender Blues Junior
Marshall JTM60
Last edited by Shiromar at Dec 8, 2009,
#15
Quote by FlyingPooooo
Same with me, I love adding a Ibanez Tube Screamer to my Peavey 5150's lead channel. Gives it a bit more grip.


No its not. He saying there are only two types of pedals.
Digital and Analog.

And three you mentioned happened to be analog.
Not even close to 'solidstate'.
Today is just not a good day for UG...

I'm curious if you know what "solid state" means as far as electronic devices mean.

Or better yet, if you even know what "analog" means.
Good lord...
#16
Quote by imicius
However, SS/Tube terminology does not really apply to pedals; they are typically referred to as analog/digital.


Although technically they are solid-state as the circuits are built entirely using solid materials. A pedal with a valve would not be solid-state.

Quote by Zoso1994
1. No such thing as a solid-state pedal, it's digital.
2. The three pedals you mentioned are analog.


This is wrong. Not all SS pedals or amps are digital. But all digital pedals/amps are SS.
And solid state is analog.


EDIT: Seems everyone beat me to it!
"Music snobbery is the worst kind of snobbery. 'Oh, you like those noises? Those sounds in your ear? Do you like them? They're the wrong sounds. You should like these sounds in your ear.'"
- Dara O'Briain
Last edited by Sampy at Dec 8, 2009,
#17
Quote by Sampy
Although technically they are solid-state as the circuits are built entirely using solid materials. A pedal with a valve would not be solid-state.

The terms don't really apply as well to stompboxes; solid-state has become synonymous with an amplifier that does not use vacuum tubes in the pre/power amp section.
#18
Quote by tronester
I have not been playing guitar for very long (a whopping 3 months), but I have noticed that as far as well regarded guitar amplifiers go, full tube designs are the only way to go. Be it a Marshall JCM800 or MESA triple rectifier, they are all tube.

So I do not understand why people use an effects pedal like a Tubescreamer, Big Muff Pi, or DS-1 for distortion, which all use solid state devices for clipping. And they plug them into a 2000 dollar tube amplifier, making pretty much all the distortion tone coming from a sub 100 dollar box.


of course its solid state clipping. The big muff , like all fuzzes is transistor based. You tell me a way to use a tube amp to get fuzz without razoring the speaker xD

Fuzz is awesome, i much prefer that to an overdriven tube tone any day ;D
#19
Well, as far as I know, most tube amps dont use the tubes to create the distortion channel, they use a "solid state" distortion circut inside the amp. When you get distortion from tubes thats just the signel being pushed harder than the tubes can process cleanly. True tube distortion is very muddy and unclear, and sounds horrible. But theres a difference between tube distortion and tube saturation. Tube saturation, or power tube breakup is what most people like about tube amps and gives it that classic tube sound. The tubes arent distorting, but are at that very point where it starts to break up. So in essecense, as far as I know, your distortion channel on your amp is pertty much a "solid state" pedal inside your amp playing over the clean channel.

Course, I could be worng.
#20
Quote by nightraven
i dont care if its got tubes or not

as long as it sounds good i'm gonna use it

+1

stupid argument, TS.
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#21
The main reason I made this thread is because I am very familiar with the "high-end" audio reproduction scene.

In that world, many people love tube amplifiers, NOT because of the warm distortion tone they create when overdriven, but because of an imagined sonic benefit over a solid state amp, when driven well below the audible distortion threshold of the amp.

I was just curious if guitar guys had that same voodoo belief system that only valve sound is good, but I am pleased to see you guys are sane! :-)
#22
Quote by imicius
The terms don't really apply as well to stompboxes; solid-state has become synonymous with an amplifier that does not use vacuum tubes in the pre/power amp section.


The terms apply perfectly to stomp boxes. Solid state is any circuit made entirely of solid components. Your computer for example.

It is not just used when referring to amplifiers.
"Music snobbery is the worst kind of snobbery. 'Oh, you like those noises? Those sounds in your ear? Do you like them? They're the wrong sounds. You should like these sounds in your ear.'"
- Dara O'Briain
#24
Quote by ethan_hanus
Well, as far as I know, most tube amps dont use the tubes to create the distortion channel, they use a "solid state" distortion circut inside the amp. When you get distortion from tubes thats just the signel being pushed harder than the tubes can process cleanly. True tube distortion is very muddy and unclear, and sounds horrible. But theres a difference between tube distortion and tube saturation. Tube saturation, or power tube breakup is what most people like about tube amps and gives it that classic tube sound. The tubes arent distorting, but are at that very point where it starts to break up. So in essecense, as far as I know, your distortion channel on your amp is pertty much a "solid state" pedal inside your amp playing over the clean channel.

Course, I could be worng.


Preamp tubes give 'distortion' just depends on what kind you're looking for. Modern metal is a lot of preamp distortion...while tones like ACDC is more from pushing the power amp section of the amp (well, actually just cranking everything on the the amp in general )

Again, not necessarily the case for all tube amps/music styles.

Not sure what you mean here...but you lost me

In the end...most of what the original post can be answered by saying that those pedals are just boosting what the amp is already producing sound-wise. And who really cares...tube v. SS is irrelevant really, because they're are bad tube amps...and there are kick ass SS amps. Just depends on what sound you're after.
Last edited by eyebanez333 at Dec 8, 2009,
#25
Quote by tronester
The main reason I made this thread is because I am very familiar with the "high-end" audio reproduction scene.

In that world, many people love tube amplifiers, NOT because of the warm distortion tone they create when overdriven, but because of an imagined sonic benefit over a solid state amp, when driven well below the audible distortion threshold of the amp.

I was just curious if guitar guys had that same voodoo belief system that only valve sound is good, but I am pleased to see you guys are sane! :-)
I'm not narrow minded enough to say that only tube amps sound good, but my favorite amps are all tube amps but that's due to preference, there are a lot of people who love the Roland JC, I don't. Just different strokes for different folks.
Last edited by al112987 at Dec 8, 2009,
#26
Quote by Zoso1994
1. No such thing as a solid-state pedal, it's digital.
2. The three pedals you mentioned are analog.
3. Most people get their lead tone from their amp and some boost it with a tubescreamer.
4. If you see a DS-1 in a good rig, it's most likely modded.

...what?
I'm pretty sure they're analog. Besides you contradicted yourself.
Current Gear:
LTD MH-400 with Gotoh GE1996T (EMG 85/60)
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Quote by Anonden
You CAN play anything with anything....but some guitars sound right for some things, and not for others. Single coils sound retarded for metal, though those who are apeshit about harpsichord probably beg to differ.
#27
Quote by ethan_hanus
as far as I know, your distortion channel on your amp is pertty much a "solid state" pedal inside your amp playing over the clean channel.

Course, I could be worng.



Don't know about your amp, but that is certainly NOT the case with mine!
#28
Solid state means there are no moving parts. This is unreal hoe people are arguing over something that isn't rocket science. Tube amps don't have any actual movin parts bu there is a vaccum caused in the tubes so that would take it out of the solid state area along with the fact the sound isn't being made by a micro chip. If there are any circuts, transistors and so on in something and oy shit like that with no moving parts that's solid state. Best example of solid state are video cameras. All new HD cameras are pretty much solid state. No moving internal parts needed since the footage goes to a memory card. Now everyone shut up about what SS is.

Also the tube powered pedals I've tried (which cost a shitload more than non valve) weren't anything special. They didn't do anything my ibanez ts9 can't do for my Windsor. Some people will tell you tube pedals are the best to go with a tube amp. It makes some kind of sense if you go withthat logic, till you try a cable driven pedal next to a SS. I rather save my money and get some other pedals or whatever else I need
stay lit


Quote by PeteTLT
Will preamp tubes turn black and melt slightly undernormal conditions and still work?
Last edited by Crohny at Dec 8, 2009,
#29
Solid State does not mean "no moving parts" or "solid components". It means amplification using transistors or op-amps instead of tubes. Digital circuits also use op-amps or transistors, either externally or internal to the chip.
#30
Quote by Crohny
Solid state means there are no moving parts. This is unreal hoe people are arguing over something that isn't rocket science. Tube amps don't have any actual movin parts bu there is a vaccum caused in the tubes so that would take it out of the solid state area along with the fact the sound isn't being made by a micro chip. If there are any circuts, transistors and so on in something and oy shit like that with no moving parts that's solid state. Best example of solid state are video cameras. All new HD cameras are pretty much solid state. No moving internal parts needed since the footage goes to a memory card. Now everyone shut up about what SS is.

Also the tube powered pedals I've tried (which cost a shitload more than non valve) weren't anything special. They didn't do anything my ibanez ts9 can't do for my Windsor. Some people will tell you tube pedals are the best to go with a tube amp. It makes some kind of sense if you go withthat logic, till you try a cable driven pedal next to a SS. I rather save my money and get some other pedals or whatever else I need

One big for you sir.
Quote by Cathbard
Quote by Raijouta
Unless its electronic drums.

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!
#32
Quote by Crohny
Solid state means there are no moving parts. This is unreal hoe people are arguing over something that isn't rocket science.
No it's not rocket science. It's electronics and the basis of "solid state" is in physics and material chemistry. I know that's amazing, but this IS science.
Tube amps don't have any actual movin parts bu there is a vaccum caused in the tubes so that would take it out of the solid state area along with the fact the sound isn't being made by a micro chip.
neither do most solid state amps
If there are any circuts, transistors and so on in something and oy shit like that with no moving parts that's solid state.
.... So what are tube amps made of? Spaghetti and meatballs? Banana pudding maybe?

Best example of solid state are video cameras. All new HD cameras are pretty much solid state. No moving internal parts needed since the footage goes to a memory card. Now everyone shut up about what SS is.
... No comment
Last edited by al112987 at Dec 8, 2009,
#33
Quote by fly135
Solid State does not mean "no moving parts" or "solid components". It means amplification using transistors or op-amps instead of tubes. Digital circuits also use op-amps or transistors, either externally or internal to the chip.



Wow. So you're telling me panasonic is wrong about their own shit? You've got to be kidding me.U

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/solid-state-electronics-channel.htm
stay lit


Quote by PeteTLT
Will preamp tubes turn black and melt slightly undernormal conditions and still work?
Last edited by Crohny at Dec 8, 2009,
#34
Quote by Crohny
Wow. So you're telling me panasonic is wrong about their own shit? You've got to be kidding me.
you're telling me that anything that contains "circuits" is solid state?
#35
Quote by Crohny
Wow. So you're telling me panasonic is wrong about their own shit? You've got to be kidding me.

No he's telling you that you are wrong about it. You obviously took some Panasonic advertisement way out of context and have no idea what you're talking about. The moving parts thing is MOSFET, not solid state.
Quote by Cathbard
Quote by Raijouta
Unless its electronic drums.

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!
#37
Quote by al112987
you're telling me that anything that contains "circuits" is solid state?



No. I don't know how to explain it properly. I'm not a electronics tech but I know my shit. Just checkthe link I posted in my last post.
stay lit


Quote by PeteTLT
Will preamp tubes turn black and melt slightly undernormal conditions and still work?
#38
Quote by Crohny
1. I'm not a electronics tech but I know my shit.
2. Just checkthe link I posted in my last post.

1. No, you don't, and I believe 'Al1xxxxx' is an amp tech if not an EE, so maybe you should listen to someone who does know their shit.
2. You back up the statement 'I know my shit' with a link to a website designed to help people who have no clue about electronics learn about it...
Quote by Cathbard
Quote by Raijouta
Unless its electronic drums.

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!
#39
Quote by Crohny
No. I don't know how to explain it properly. I'm not a electronics tech but I know my shit. Just checkthe link I posted in my last post.
Considering that you don't know what solid state means (and more hilariously, what a circuit is) I highly doubt it.
Quote by tubetime86
1. No, you don't, and I believe 'Al1xxxxx' is an amp tech if not an EE, so maybe you should listen to someone who does know their shit.
2. You back up the statement 'I know my shit' with a link to a website designed to help people who have no clue about electronics learn about it...
Haha, I'm neither an amp tech or EE, I know Fly135 is either an amp tech or builder, I'm actually a biochemist with a good background in physics and a little bit of applied guitar amplifier know how. But solid state chemistry and physics is something every 2nd or 3rd year chemistry or physics undergraduate learns as it pertains to electronics in general.
Last edited by al112987 at Dec 8, 2009,
#40
Quote by stradivari310

this.

this thread is full of fail and win at the same time.
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