#1
ok so I'm reading the Theory Lesson on UG here, and I'm at the triad part, now I got all the major keys down, everything is ok, so I decided to try things in the minor keys.

Are the major and minor formulas switched for the minor keys? I tried D#- so far, and the minor formula (1 b3 5) sounds major, and the major formula (1 3 5) sounds minor, is it like this for minor keys?

And if it is (it sounds like it when I play them) What about the augmented and diminished formulas, are those switched or the same? (so D# F# B in the key of D#- is augmented, as its supposed to be? Or is it inverted to be diminished?)
Last edited by naedauuf at Dec 8, 2009,
#2
You're mistaking things for other things. There's no such thing as a chord being augmented in one scale, but not in the other. It's about the intervals between the notes, I think you've understood it wrong.

Triads are always build from the major scale, that's your problem. Triad formula's are about intervals, not about notes in a key. (Well a little but this is to simplify).

Major = 1-3-5
Minor = 1-b3-5
Diminished = 1-b3-b5
Augmented = 1-3-#5

Those numbers mean intervals. For example, a 3 (major third) away from C is E. A b3 (minor third) from C is Eb. A 5 (perfect fifth) away from C is G, and a b5 is Gb and a #5 is G#.

What I'm trying to say is, the numbers are meant to act as intervals, not as like "the third note in the scale" cause that would mess things up.
Last edited by KoenDercksen at Dec 8, 2009,
#4
So, it's because I'm in the minor key, and even though when I play the major triad of D#- (D# F# A#) on my guitar and it sounds minor, it's still actually the major of the minor key?

Kinda confusing lol.

The lessons doesn't say anything about this, but I just noticed when I play these triads they sound reversed, only in the minor key though. Major key's they sound major and sound minor and augmented and diminished where they are supposed to, but in the minor key they sound reversed.

Like get your guitar or whatever and play D# F# A# - it doesn't sound major, it sounds minor, but it's actually the major formula, and vice versa for minor formula.


EDIT: Woops guys I'm sorry, this is all my fault, I didn't get the D#- key signature right.. A isn't even sharpened, it sounds normal with this fix.. my bad lol
Last edited by naedauuf at Dec 8, 2009,
#5
You're confusing keys and chords xD

Chords are ALWAYS constructed from the major scale. So if you want to constuct a D# major triad, you take the intervals "tonic - major third - perfect fifth (1-3-5)" and you get D#-F##-A#.

Take an easier example, C major. 1 = C, the major third of C is E, and the perfect fifth of C is G. You can play an C major chord in the key of G# harmonic minor if you wish, it will sound fugly but that doesn't matter. Chord construction does not have anything to do with keys. Just intervals.

:edit:
D#-F#-A# is not D#major, that IS in fact D# minor You're looking for D#-F##(G)-A.
Last edited by KoenDercksen at Dec 8, 2009,
#6
Maybe this will help you along with what the other guy said.


I am gonna do it in C major so that way it is easier for you to understand.

Cmaj=C E G

Cm=C Eb G

Caug=C E G#

Cdim=C Eb Gb

It is all about intervals. Don't worry about the key of the song so much when trying to learn how to form triads.
Quote by Tyler Durden
It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything.

Erowid
#7
I know all that I just had my key signature mistaken in the key of D#-, A isn't sharpened I thought it was, my mistake :p.

It was still nice to learn that all chords are formed in the major though.. So if I'm in a minor key, I find the relative major to make my chord?

I wasn't looking for that answer, but I'm glad to have learned it anyways
#8
Quote by naedauuf
ok so I'm reading the Theory Lesson on UG here, and I'm at the triad part, now I got all the major keys down, everything is ok, so I decided to try things in the minor keys.

Are the major and minor formulas switched for the minor keys? I tried D#- so far, and the minor formula (1 b3 5) sounds major, and the major formula (1 3 5) sounds minor, is it like this for minor keys?

And if it is (it sounds like it when I play them) What about the augmented and diminished formulas, are those switched or the same? (so D# F# B in the key of D#- is augmented, as its supposed to be? Or is it inverted to be diminished?)


I'm not sure what the theory lesson here at UG is, but the way you seem to be learning sounds a bit confusing. I have a very strong method for naming any triad/chord, and in fact I demonstrate that ability here on video, as part of my Guitar Lecture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UfENyOJd1g

A D#min Triad is D# F# A#

A D# Augmented is D# F## and A## - These are the correct notes. Now what you should understand, is that *any* note can have an enharmonic.

What's important is that we keep the same letters alphabetically. Of course in a working situation we aren't going to tell someone to play F##, we'd condense it to say G, and that's fine.

But in a sheet music situation, though the pitches themselves would be considered unisons, the notation on a staff looks different and in fact the Fx (F##) would be called the more "correct".

The D# Diminished Triad is D# F# A.

Hope this helps. Like I said, check out the demonstration of one of the areas that I teach, in my recently released online teaching course, and if I can be of any assistance let me know.

Best,

Sean
#9
Quote by naedauuf
I know all that I just had my key signature mistaken in the key of D#-, A isn't sharpened I thought it was, my mistake :p.

It was still nice to learn that all chords are formed in the major though.. So if I'm in a minor key, I find the relative major to make my chord?

I wasn't looking for that answer, but I'm glad to have learned it anyways

Not quite sure what you mean but do you know the formula of

Major - I ii iii IV V vi viio

Minor - i iio III iv v VI VII?

Uppercase = Major

Lowercase = Minor

Lowercase with "o" = Diminished?
Quote by Tyler Durden
It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything.

Erowid
#10
Quote by naedauuf
I know all that I just had my key signature mistaken in the key of D#-, A isn't sharpened I thought it was, my mistake :p.

It was still nice to learn that all chords are formed in the major though.. So if I'm in a minor key, I find the relative major to make my chord?

I wasn't looking for that answer, but I'm glad to have learned it anyways


No not the relative major... The parallel major xD

But try not to think about keys, but about intervals. It will be easier to understand that way.

You must not think about what key you're in, you must think of from what key the chord will be build.

Like, you build a C major chord, you use the C major scale (even though your progression might be in G#minor or something).
If you want to make a D minor chord, use the D major scale, make a D major triad using the correct intervals and flatten the 3rd.

Understand what I'm trying to say?
#12
Yes. Major 135, Minor 1b35, Augmented 13#5, Diminished 1b3b5. I just had my key signature messed up - I was trying to find those 4 triads in the key of D#minor, but I was mistaken and thought the A in that key was naturally sharpened, but it isn't, so what I thought was major in that key was D# F# A#, was actually correctly D# F# A. So I was actually playing the minor triad thinking it was the major.. lol my mistake!

Atleast I learned a few other thing I didn't set out to learn haha
Last edited by naedauuf at Dec 8, 2009,
#13
Yeah man. Just think intervals.
Quote by Tyler Durden
It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything.

Erowid
#14
Hmmm. Think intervals?

For me, this raises a practical question, how quickly and on the fly can you guys compose the notes of any triad?

If the answer is quickly - like 1 second for any triad, and with complete accuracy, can you share how long in terms of time did it take to get there for you, and what were the things you had to do to get to the point where you could do this that quickly?
#15
Some important things for you to learn are:

1. All of the note names. If you are looking for a D major triad, it help to know where all of the D's are. You need to learn all of the strings because the root can appear on any string.

2. Learn all of the intervals on the guitar. If you know intervals it will make it easier to find triads - R-3-5, 3-5-R, R-b3-5, b3-5-R, etc. You don't want to just rely on patterns because there are too many. If you know intervals you can find any chord anywhere on the neck.

3. The link below will show you what major triads look like all over the neck (closed triads). Don't just learn the patterns, understand the notes and intervals. If you understand intervals you can make adjustments to the triads below to form minor, diminished & augmented triads in all inversions.

http://www.guitar-theory-in-depth.com/image-files/guitar-chords-chart1.jpg

If you are starting from scratch and don't know the things I've listed above, it will take you some time to learn all of it. It may take you a couple months to really know the notes and intervals on the guitar. But once you learn this you'll be able to find any triad on the fly. This will also help you with scales and arpeggios and you'll have a head start once you move on to 7th chords and other extended chords. If you learn the info above you'll have a much better understanding of the fretboard.
#16
or you could just think in semitones. go three semitones up and its a minor third, 4 semitones up and its a major third. a minor triad is a minor third followed by a major third:
D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#.
a major triad is a major third followed by a minor third:
D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#
diminished triad is two minor thirds:
D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A
augmented triad is two major thirds:
D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B

its important to know both ways, but if you just quickly wanna know the notes this is the easiest and quickest to me at least.
#17
Quote by bolivardogman
a minor triad is a minor third followed by a major third:
|D#|, E, F, |F#|, G, G#, A, |A#|.
a major triad is a major third followed by a minor third:
|D#|, E, F, F#, |F##|, G#, A, |A#|
diminished triad is two minor thirds:
|D#|, E, F, |F#|, G, G#, |A|
augmented triad is two major thirds:
|D#|, E, F, F#, |F##|, G#, A, A#, |A##|
Fixed. Sure the notes are enharmonic, but they are named differently, because in context, they are used differently.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Dec 8, 2009,
#18
Quote by Sean0913
Hmmm. Think intervals?

For me, this raises a practical question, how quickly and on the fly can you guys compose the notes of any triad?

If the answer is quickly - like 1 second for any triad, and with complete accuracy, can you share how long in terms of time did it take to get there for you, and what were the things you had to do to get to the point where you could do this that quickly?

Well I have memorized the notes of quite a few of them to be honest. That way I can subconsciously play things.
Quote by Tyler Durden
It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything.

Erowid
#19
Quote by RockGuitar92
Well I have memorized the notes of quite a few of them to be honest. That way I can subconsciously play things.


What about the remaining ones? And how long would you say it took you to memorize the ones that you have? What method did you use to memorize the ones you had?
#20
Quote by Sean0913
What about the remaining ones? And how long would you say it took you to memorize the ones that you have? What method did you use to memorize the ones you had?

I am still learning things for a reason. I still haven't memorized some of the triads that are sharps. ex. A#

It didn't take me but about two weeks because I play piano and because it is so easy to learn music theory with a keyboard. You know what I'm saying?

EDIT: Plus for guitar I know many different chord shapes and why types of chords they make. It's all a matter of what key I put it in.
Quote by Tyler Durden
It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything.

Erowid
Last edited by RockGuitar92 at Dec 9, 2009,
#21
Quote by food1010
Fixed. Sure the notes are enharmonic, but they are named differently, because in context, they are used differently.

ye, my bad.
when using a note sheet its one thing and when counting in my head its another
#22
Quote by Sean0913
Hmmm. Think intervals?

For me, this raises a practical question, how quickly and on the fly can you guys compose the notes of any triad?

If the answer is quickly - like 1 second for any triad, and with complete accuracy, can you share how long in terms of time did it take to get there for you, and what were the things you had to do to get to the point where you could do this that quickly?


learning how to harmonize the scale .. diatonic harmony.. in triads and 4 note chords ...and all their inversions... in all keys took me over a year..to just get the mechanics under my fingers...to use it in practical applications and applying it
to song structures and using some substitution principals with comfort took close to three years...

doing chord melodies with basic harmony can now be done on the fly...more complex arrangements takes longer due to voice leading etc


play well

wolf
#23
Quote by wolflen
learning how to harmonize the scale .. diatonic harmony.. in triads and 4 note chords ...and all their inversions... in all keys took me over a year..to just get the mechanics under my fingers...to use it in practical applications and applying it
to song structures and using some substitution principals with comfort took close to three years...

doing chord melodies with basic harmony can now be done on the fly...more complex arrangements takes longer due to voice leading etc


play well

wolf


Thank you, and that is about how it usually takes for most people. This is why I ask - I can teach these things as follows:

Notes on the neck - 6 weeks (or 6 lessons depending on how fast you get the homework down)

Major scales, the ability to write out any major scale - 1 lesson

Major Key - the ability to write out the triad form of any major key - 1 lesson

Triads - the ability to name any triad and spell it by ear, as follows:

Lesson 1 - core fundamentals of triads, and their anatomy
Lesson 2 - almost all the natural Major and Minor triads
Lesson 3 - the remaining major and minor triads
Lesson 4 - Triads beginning with an accidental
Lesson 5 - Diminished and Augmented triads.


Following this, I teach the modes - it takes approx 16 lessons, covering all the modes in every direction and key, use of intervals to relate parental modes (Ionian) - it covers both relative and parallel uses of the modes. It also covers writing the scale formulae and being able to construct chord progressions from every mode in 3 dimensions.

1. Triad form

2. Chords all the way to 13ths which harmonically support the mode

3. Experimental chords and inversions which while abstract by themselves completely support the mode harmonically - also I go into teaching the student to identify what this mass of harmonic content might be named as a chord. This is the kind of composition - chord wise that Joe Satriani uses, and you must admit, the stuf he does is more than a 2 chord vamp.

What takes others years to learn, I can solidly accomplish in my teaching program within a few months.