#1
What would be good chords to play underneath an A Lydian (A B C# D# E F# G#) solo? I need them for a rhythm. I plan on alternation between arpeggios and strumming. It's going to be a more ballady (I hate the word ballad ) type song. Think slower Vai/Satriani. I feel like a noob for asking but help is appreciated


EDIT: Im sorry about the lydian notes mix-up. I must have had pentatonics on the brain.
I'll pretend I can mod your amp but break it instead.
Last edited by guitarlord28 at Dec 9, 2009,
#2
A Lydian is A B C# D# E F# G# - you need one of each letter in a diatonic scale.

A Maj has F#, C# and G#, and Lydian has a sharpened 4th - so D#

Chord-wise I'd just vamp AMaj (or AMaj7) and BMaj (or B7) if you need to make it sound Lydian.

If you don't need to make it sound Lydian I wouldn't worry about modes at all until you have the Major scale nailed so you really understand it - they'll make much more sense then.


Edit: Just a warning if you really want to keep it Lydian - modes are unstable. If you're not careful a modal progression will try and turn into a major or minor progression. The more chords you use the harder it is to keep it modal. If you find your song starts to want to resolve to C#m or EMaj try and strip some of the extra chords out to make it resolve to that AMaj again.
Last edited by zhilla at Dec 9, 2009,
#3
A Lydian is actually A B C# D# E F# and G# and uses A, B, C#m, D#dim, E, F#m, and G#m
#4
Quote by zhilla
A Lydian is A B C# D# E F# G# - you need one of each letter in a diatonic scale.

A Maj has F#, C# and G#, and Lydian has a sharpened 4th - so D#

Chord-wise I'd just vamp AMaj (or AMaj7) and BMaj (or B7) if you need to make it sound Lydian.

If you don't need to make it sound Lydian I wouldn't worry about modes at all until you have the Major scale nailed so you really understand it - they'll make much more sense then.


+1.

just build the diatonic chords on A Lydian and choose what you need. what zhilla said will definitely work, but i doubt you were thinking of that exact chord progression. so yeah, just work out the diatonic chords and experiment a bit.
#5
Do the leapfrog thing when trying to construct chords from scales to figure out what chords belong and what progressions you can devise.

A B C# D# E F# and G#:

A C# and E

B D# and F#

C# E and G#

etc
Quote by Kensai
I know a good joke:

Women's rights.
Quote by Chubbychunks
I know a good joke:

Kensai's life.
#6
Quote by guitarlord28
What would be good chords to play underneath an A Lydian (A B C# D# E F# G#) solo? I need them for a rhythm. I plan on alternation between arpeggios and strumming. It's going to be a more ballady (I hate the word ballad ) type song. Think slower Vai/Satriani. I feel like a noob for asking but help is appreciated


EDIT: Im sorry about the lydian notes mix-up. I must have had pentatonics on the brain.



The most basic idea would be A major to B major over and over - this is called a 2 chord vamp - and is very basic - extending that chord in B out you could make it a B7. This technically "works" but it's very limiting as far as inspiration and using the modes to their fullest potential. But if you want an easy shorthand reference, the IV to V is a Lydian vamp.

I teach a very in depth study on the modes that could save you years of stumbling and guessing out there. What Ive given you is a fish. If you learned through my course, you'd learn to "fish" yourself. There are a ton more chords that you could learn how to compose to bring out those features that you are looking for that make lydian really stand out and caputure the uniqueness of that mode.

Check out my link below for my seminar - my course is one of a kind. You'll never find it anywhere else, and its for questions and people like you that it was designed for.

A Lydian notes are A B C# D# E F# G# and A, as you stated correctly.

If you have any comments or questions, I'd be happy to address them. I encourage you to consider looking at my videos, because I think they could make a major difference in the future of your playing guitar.

Sean
#7
I have a full blown tutorial on Lydian applications:

Pt1: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Lydian/LydianPatterns1.htm
Pt2: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Lydian/LydianPatterns2.htm
Pt3: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Lydian/LydianPatterns3.htm
Pt4: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Lydian/LydianPatterns4.htm

It'll cover the some common chords used in Lydian progressions ala Vai, Satch, etc. And it shows you how to turn your scale into more musical chunks rather than a straight linear "scale name by the note" scale/finger pattern.

Check it out. But definitely start at Pt 1 and move through them one by one as one part picks up where the other leaves off.
Last edited by MikeDodge at Dec 9, 2009,
#8
Quote by MikeDodge
I have a full blown tutorial on Lydian applications:

Pt1: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Lydian/LydianPatterns1.htm
Pt2: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Lydian/LydianPatterns2.htm
Pt3: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Lydian/LydianPatterns3.htm
Pt4: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Lydian/LydianPatterns4.htm

It'll cover the some common chords used in Lydian progressions ala Vai, Satch, etc. And it shows you how to turn your scale into more musical chunks rather than a straight linear "scale name by the note" scale/finger pattern.

Check it out. But definitely start at Pt 1 and move through them one by one as one part picks up where the other leaves off.


I just went through these 4 lessons, and I have to compliment you, the add9 is certainly effective.

You were also spot on about the fragments. Its a great way to create chords and such and get out of the box of sounding scale-like - so kudos there - you actually touch upon things I teach in my online course about applying the modes. The one thing I would suggest since you have some of the story right so far, is consider all the diatonics with the #4 note added to them, thats how you create the 9ths 11ths and so forth with the remaining scales. Add that to your knowledge of the add 9 and you are well in Satch and EJ territory, but its not relegated to a simple 2 chord vamp or only an add9 chord.

Id say one major change that I see is my students learn to look at a scale and instantly discern what chords are within that scale, mode wise, so an add9 would be quite effective, but its more like giving a fish than teaching someone to find that fish themselves.

I'm very excited and heartened to see that you are teaching what you are, I havent seen this kind of thought suggested since I started teaching this myself. You are fairly close to what I teach, in this instance regarding application, and Im impressed at the depth that youve gone here and it should be commended.

Last edited by Sean0913 at Dec 9, 2009,
#9
So, the progression:

Aadd9 - Esus - Gsus(add9) - Esus

would work, correct?

Here are the shapes I'm using, just to make sure

Aadd9 Esus Gsus(add9)
-0- -0- -3 -
-2- -0- -1-
-4- -2- -2-
-2- -2- -0-
-0- -2- -0-
-x- -0- -3-

The one I'm not sure about is the Gsus(add9). Did I form that one correctly?
I'll pretend I can mod your amp but break it instead.
Last edited by guitarlord28 at Dec 10, 2009,
#10
Quote by Sean0913
I just went through these 4 lessons, and I have to compliment you, the add9 is certainly effective.

You were also spot on about the fragments. Its a great way to create chords and such and get out of the box of sounding scale-like - so kudos there - you actually touch upon things I teach in my online course about applying the modes. The one thing I would suggest since you have some of the story right so far, is consider all the diatonics with the #4 note added to them, thats how you create the 9ths 11ths and so forth with the remaining scales. Add that to your knowledge of the add 9 and you are well in Satch and EJ territory, but its not relegated to a simple 2 chord vamp or only an add9 chord.

Id say one major change that I see is my students learn to look at a scale and instantly discern what chords are within that scale, mode wise, so an add9 would be quite effective, but its more like giving a fish than teaching someone to find that fish themselves.

I'm very excited and heartened to see that you are teaching what you are, I havent seen this kind of thought suggested since I started teaching this myself. You are fairly close to what I teach, in this instance regarding application, and Im impressed at the depth that youve gone here and it should be commended.



Thanks. I'll check you lessons out.

I used the terminology "#11" for the #4. I kind of stay away from "diatonic" progressions since the more chords you throw in from the Key, the more it sounds like a straight Major or Minor progression and loses the 'modal' feeling.

I've run into Satch using these chords for the Aadd9 and the Esus#11 (or Esus(add#11)):

Eadd9 Esus#11
E------------------
B----------11------
G--11------11------
D--9-------9-------
A--7-------7-------
E--0-------0-------

-------------------------------------------------

Another great thing for Lydian playing is take two maj#11 chord with random intervals between them and move to the correct Lydian scale for the chord, IOW...

||: Gmaj7#11 | Gmaj7#11 | Bbmaj7#11 | Bbmaj7#11 :||

Now play G Lydian for the Gmaj7#11 chord and Bb Lydian for the Bbmaj7#11 chord.

Try it with Gmaj7#11 and Abmaj#11, IOW use random maj7#11 chords but just make sure you nail the correct Lydian scale for each chord. Just about any combination sounds good, especially good enough to hone the Lydian playing.

Doing it this way with two disparate chords (chords not connected diatonically) creates a complete modal approach and all resolve points are on the mode and not tied back to a straight Major or Minor Key.

That just something I mess around with for Lydian.

Here's some more ideas for more of a indo-jazz approach: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/lydian-fodder-t31.html (and it has references to the other lessons I posted)
#11
Quote by guitarlord28
So, the progression:

Aadd9 - Esus - Gsus(add9) - Esus

would work, correct?

Here are the shapes I'm using, just to make sure

Aadd9 Esus Gsus(add9)
-0- -0- -3 -
-2- -0- -1-
-4- -2- -2-
-2- -2- -0-
-0- -2- -0-
-x- -0- -3-

The one I'm not sure about is the Gsus(add9). Did I form that one correctly?


I'm sorry, for those #11 chords I use a few names and I'm sure it's confusing, again sorry.


In part 4 of those links I posted, it shows you how to play all those chords in the progression.

This is one way I'd play it:

Gadd9sus#11

E--x--
B--2--
G--2--
D--0--
A--x--
E--3--

That's probably the best name because it's and add9 chord, but the "3" is replaced (or sus'ed) with the #11 note. What's cool about this chord is that in common Diatonic Theory teachings you usually are told a maj#11 (or maj7#11) chord is build from Lydian. Well, that chord with the M7 doesn't always get a nice voicing from someone who's not familiar with with this chord, and it's just flat out has a lot of notes in it (R M3 5 M7 9 #11), practically the whole scale! Taking the M7 out leaving the R M3 5 9 and #11 gives it a less jazzy sound and more in line with what today's modal playing guitar shredder are using.

This is just stuff I mess with, and it can all be thought of a few different ways but I just try to explain my approach in the simplest way...and it seems to sound good.
#12
Quote by MikeDodge
What's cool about this chord is that in common Diatonic Theory teachings you usually are told a maj#11 (or maj7#11) chord is build from Lydian. Well, that chord with the M7 doesn't always get a nice voicing from someone who's not familiar with with this chord, and it's just flat out has a lot of notes in it (R M3 5 M7 9 #11),


People play the fifth and ninth? I've always voiced it 1 3 7 ♯11...
#13
Quote by isaac_bandits
People play the fifth and ninth? I've always voiced it 1 3 7 ♯11...



That's just it you can play it however you want to play it. Due to its status in a triad and its priority, we know we *can* omit the 5.

I also appreciate you calling it a #11 which is something I tend to be lax concerning, because an 11 in theory is usually presumed to be #. However due to others here who may not be as steeped in theory, its good to raise that distinction.

Playing the ninth gives more harmonic content to the interval of an #11, but if it were a 13th I could see omitting the 5 7 9, for example or maybe keeping the 7 (or b7) if I were playing as a dominant...


@ Mike - I discovered quite the opposite as far as diatonic - that the more instances of that #4 in a progression, (Lydian) the more Modal it will sound, and will reinforce and bring out the modality of the song and lead that goes with it.
Last edited by Sean0913 at Dec 9, 2009,
#14
Quote by Sean0913
I also appreciate you calling it a #11 which is something I tend to be lax concerning, because an 11 in theory is usually presumed to be #. However due to others here who may not be as steeped in theory, its good to raise that distinction.


No its not. An interval is assumed to be based off the major scale, which has a ♮11. A madd11 chord will have the ♮11. Typically with major chords, one doesn't play both the major third and the ♮11, since that creates a minor ninth, which is unpleasant. Thus, either the ♯11 is used, or the ♮11 is used without the ♯3, which just makes a sus4 chord. Typically when someone talks about dominant harmony, the ♯ is used rather than the ♮11, but if a chord just says 11 it means ♮11.
#15
That's a better way to put it than I did. You are correct, and that is a more complete version of what I understand as well, I should have been more specific about that, the Am vs the A maj in terms of the third - I should have been clearer, indeed the dissonance element you expressed is dead on.

I have no music training whatsoever, but I am aware of the #11 to the nat 11 distinction.
Last edited by Sean0913 at Dec 9, 2009,
#16
Oh trust me, I definitely use the R M3 M7 and #11 chord voicing. I find it really useful for jazz and some fusion applications. Here's a couple of voicings that come pretty natural quickly:

Gmaj7/#11 (that third chord is the infamous "John Mclaughlin" chord found in a ton of early Mahavishnu Orchestra tunes!):

E------------------------9----
B---2--------------11----12---
G---4----4----6----11----11---
D---4----4----4----11---------
A--------4---------10----10---
E---3----3----3---------------

Create a straight Gmaj7#11 vamp using these chords as moving inversions/voicings/harmonies within the G Lydian sound.

Later I'll post some examples of Lydian playing from striaght Indian/Drone style, to modern jazz, to modern modal rock (ala Satch, vai, etc...). Then you can here the chord with the M7 and the ones with out and hear that difference of thickness or texture you get.
#17
Aadd9 Esus Gsus(add9)
-0- -0- -3 -
-2- -0- -1-
-4- -2- -2-
-2- -2- -0-
-0- -2- -0-
-x- -0- -3-


What I was going to try was to play something like this:

e|-------------------0----------------------0----------------------3--
B|----------2--------2----------0-----------0------------1---------1--
G|-------4--------4--4--------2----------2--2---------2--------2---2--
D|----2---------2----2------2---------2-----2------0---------0-----0--
A|-0----------0------0---2---------2--------2---0----------0-------0--
E|------------------------------------------0----------------------3--


Underneath a solo in A lydian
I'll pretend I can mod your amp but break it instead.
Last edited by guitarlord28 at Dec 10, 2009,
#18
Quote by guitarlord28
Aadd9 Esus Gsus(add9)
-0- -0- -3 -
-2- -0- -1-
-4- -2- -2-
-2- -2- -0-
-0- -2- -0-
-x- -0- -3-


What I was going to try was to play something like this:

e|-------------------0----------------------0----------------------3--
B|----------2--------2----------0-----------0------------1---------1--
G|-------4--------4--4--------2----------2--2---------2--------2---2--
D|----2---------2----2------2---------2-----2------0---------0-----0--
A|-0----------0------0---2---------2--------2---0----------0-------0--
E|------------------------------------------0----------------------3--


Underneath a solo in A lydian


The Aadd9 and Esus are find but the Gsusadd9 has a G and a C note in it and A Lydian has a G# and C#. So, you'd want to change to maybe G Mixolydian for the Gsus(add9) note due those two notes being in the chord.

Make sense?
#19
Yeah it does. I dunno what I was thinking when I came up with the G chord. No big loss though, I didn't like fretting it.
I'll pretend I can mod your amp but break it instead.
#20
Quote by guitarlord28
Yeah it does. I dunno what I was thinking when I came up with the G chord. No big loss though, I didn't like fretting it.



I haven't played with your progression yet but the idea of using a Lydian scale/chord and then a Mixolydian scale/chord a whole step lower is a common thing in modern modal jazz tunes (ala Chick Corea, Stanley Clarke, etc...). So don't change your chord, instead learn how to change your scale on that G7 chord.

By doing this you are going to tap into what's called "tonal center" playing. Reason being is that while you "think" of this as A Lydian and G Mixolydian, what you are 'hearing' is the tonal center of A and really using A Lydian and A Aeolian! In this case "A" in the tonal center at all times.

It's very very common for tunes to use this Major->Minor sounds all based on one tonal center. And you'll even find tunes that use Minor->Major based on one tonal center.

A Major->Minor example is Song for John by Stanley Clarke, C Lydian (chords Cmaj7 and Am9) and then C Aeolian (over a Bb7 chord). C is the tonal center.

A Minor->Major example is the classic Night and Day, C Aeolian (Abmaj7 or Dm7b5 chords) to C Major (G7 and Cmaj7 chords). C is the tonal center.

Now to play over these rather sophisticated tunes, you don't need to do anything but change Major and Minor scale appropriately...this simplifies things as well as gets at the heart of the music as opposed to any of 'thinking'.

So, keep your progression the way it is and play A Lydian to A Aeolian and you'll be nailing the changes based on the tonal center!!!!

Many people think when you change chords that the tonal center changes, but the real meaning is that the Tonic is always as the center of everything, regardless of chord family.
#21
Ok, now I did have a chance to play trhough your progression, and I was right on with the A Lydian to G Mixolydian change as well as the A Major->A Minor change with A being the tonal center.

I've seen this before many times in tunes.

I hope yto post some tunes today showing a few Lydian applications from a Modal and Tonal approach. And, I'll post up some chord voicing ideas for your progression that might open your eyes to a few more things going on in it.

Can you verify this though....when I played your chords I ended up playing this as the progression...

||: Aadd9 Esus | Gsus7 :||

Is that the same progression wise that you were playing? If not, please post the correct form for what you are playing. The form is important when covering the harmonies inside each mode so you can voice lead from chord to chord.

And always, always ,always play through the repeats in modal music because there are specific resolve points that you can play through to get some forward motion going in you playing.
Last edited by MikeDodge at Dec 11, 2009,
#23
hey mike... nice lesson dude. Slow the vibrato a bit but otherwise nice takes
#24
Quote by MikeDodge
Ok, now I did have a chance to play trhough your progression, and I was right on with the A Lydian to G Mixolydian change as well as the A Major->A Minor change with A being the tonal center.

I've seen this before many times in tunes.

I hope yto post some tunes today showing a few Lydian applications from a Modal and Tonal approach. And, I'll post up some chord voicing ideas for your progression that might open your eyes to a few more things going on in it.

Can you verify this though....when I played your chords I ended up playing this as the progression...

||: Aadd9 Esus | Gsus7 :||

Is that the same progression wise that you were playing? If not, please post the correct form for what you are playing. The form is important when covering the harmonies inside each mode so you can voice lead from chord to chord.

And always, always ,always play through the repeats in modal music because there are specific resolve points that you can play through to get some forward motion going in you playing.



Do you mean G7 sus4? Gsus7 is new to me. Again I'm self taught, but I see the 2 and 4 sub for the three which creates an ambiguous suspended chord.
#25
Quote by JAZZ_MAN919
Iv'e always been fond of playing 6th chords with the #11, omitting the root and 3rd.


So you like playing a tone cluster of ♯4 5 and 6?
#26
Quote by Sean0913
Do you mean G7 sus4? Gsus7 is new to me. Again I'm self taught, but I see the 2 and 4 sub for the three which creates an ambiguous suspended chord.



I'm sorry, there I go again calling chords by other names, oops. Yes, it can be G7sus4 if you want.

I was just trying to associate the "G" chord to a Maj, Min, or Dom7 chord family.

When playing the Aadd9 and Esus (hinting at A Lydian) and then going to a "G" chord, the better sounding chord family for the "G" is the G7 chord. With G7 and the A and C you added creates a G9sus4 chord.

I just think of it as G7 and then G Mixolydian has all the other tones in it that can be played or added to the G7 chord.

Hope that made sense.
#27
Quote by MikeDodge
I'm sorry, there I go again calling chords by other names, oops. Yes, it can be G7sus4 if you want.

I was just trying to associate the "G" chord to a Maj, Min, or Dom7 chord family.

When playing the Aadd9 and Esus (hinting at A Lydian) and then going to a "G" chord, the better sounding chord family for the "G" is the G7 chord. With G7 and the A and C you added creates a G9sus4 chord.

I just think of it as G7 and then G Mixolydian has all the other tones in it that can be played or added to the G7 chord.

Hope that made sense.


All good man. I consider you one of my "heroes" here - not from a student mentor thing, but from a keeping the flame kinship way. I respect what you are trying to do and how you are doing it, and any time I read what you've input into a topic, I find the same consistent level headed thinking, as you try and break down the approach so people can understand.

In other words, great respect for you man. You know what you're talking about and what Ive seen has a lot more depth than a lot of other people out there when it comes to fleshing out their explanations and approach to the material, which is something that I try and do as well in my lesson program.
#28
Quote by Sean0913
All good man. I consider you one of my "heroes" here - not from a student mentor thing, but from a keeping the flame kinship way. I respect what you are trying to do and how you are doing it, and any time I read what you've input into a topic, I find the same consistent level headed thinking, as you try and break down the approach so people can understand.

In other words, great respect for you man. You know what you're talking about and what Ive seen has a lot more depth than a lot of other people out there when it comes to fleshing out their explanations and approach to the material, which is something that I try and do as well in my lesson program.


That's all cool.

The Aadd9 and Esus chords are common pairs in A Lydian, mainly because they are the same chord but you can be flexible with the lowest note in the voicing. Like this:


E-----
B--5--
G--4--
D--7--
A--0--
E------


Notice the Esus4 chord in there on the D G and B strings?


E-----
B--5--
G--4--
D--7--
A-----
E------


Try these voicings...


  Aadd9    Esus4/A   G7add4(or 11 if you will)
E-----------------------
B--5-------10--------12-
G--4-------9---------10-
D--7-------9---------10-
A--0-------0---------10-
E-----------------------

Remember to play A Lydian then G Mixolydian.


With that the chords are moving in a direction, or are on a path from the first chord to the last
#29
Quote by MikeDodge
I have a full blown tutorial on Lydian applications:

Pt1: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Lydian/LydianPatterns1.htm
Pt2: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Lydian/LydianPatterns2.htm
Pt3: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Lydian/LydianPatterns3.htm
Pt4: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Lydian/LydianPatterns4.htm

It'll cover the some common chords used in Lydian progressions ala Vai, Satch, etc. And it shows you how to turn your scale into more musical chunks rather than a straight linear "scale name by the note" scale/finger pattern.

Check it out. But definitely start at Pt 1 and move through them one by one as one part picks up where the other leaves off.



good stuff mike....glad your on board

defining and explaining modal concepts to many players is confusing at best...to new players its a mystery...

the add 9 chord is quite a wonder isn't it...hendrix liked it quite a bit....

play well

wolf
#30
Thanks evolucian and wolfen!

Here's some Lydian tunes to check out the different applications.

Straight Modal Drone music - http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/MikeD1/elydian.mp3 I call it "Ely Dian". It's really nothing more than E and B notes droning and me playing a B Major scale over it. Since E is the tonal center here, it's E Lydian by default. Also, this example shows the contrast to many books that claim the Lydian scale is the "brightest" of all the diatonic scales, as this is a very dark sound.

Rock modal application - http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/MikeD/LimitedAbility_NotFinished.mp3 This is on of my tunes. This is E Lydian and A Lydian for the first part, the unaccompanied solo is E Lydian, then the end piece (which isn't complete yet) would be E Lydian, G Lydian, and A Lydian per the chords being played. This is similar to how Vai, Satch, Batio, Johnson, etc...use creat modal tunes, by using chords that aren't connected diatonically and then change the scale directly with the chord.

Modern Modal Jazz - http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/MikeD/SongForJohnFinalMix.mp3 This is a recording I did of Stanley Clarke's Song for John. The chords are Cmaj7-Am9-Bb7-Cmaj7. For the Cmaj7 chord use C Major and C Lydian, for Am9 use an A Minor or A Dorian scale (also just try E Min Pent, it's really nice), and for Bb7 use Bb Mixolydian or just play C Natural Minor. This one can be though of as nothing more than C Major to C minor then back to C Major! This Major to Minor thing from one tonal center is very common in modern modal jazz as the two contrast so much that it provides a heavy melodic tension and release outside of the basic diatonic chord structures.

Other great Lydian tunes to check out are:

Km-Pee-Du-Wee by Steve Vai
Windows by Chick Corea
Tears of Rain by Pat Metheny

Those are some of the more interesting Lydian tunes I've found and play to hone my skills.

Have fun!
Last edited by MikeDodge at Dec 11, 2009,
#31
This is brilliant, but the question I have is will this teach someone to fish for themselves, or give them a fish as in a ready made "Lydian Chord Book"?

What really concerns me is the possibility that someone memorizes the chords, slaps the modes over them, and then believes that they "Understand" and "Know" the modes....or even the Lydian Mode, because you have given them a turnkey approach to the answer, and all they need to do is move right in and play, whereas you've done all the heavy lifting.

Does that make sense?
#32
Hmm... dunno sean... they still have to use their ear whether they are given it by spoonfeeding or by hunting. If you miss the sound of that #11 then perhaps air guitar is where it'll stay. Having those tools ready for em is cool... hunting it down might be more rewarding but the end result may be the same...
#33
Quote by Sean0913


What really concerns me is the possibility that someone memorizes the chords, slaps the modes over them, and then believes that they "Understand" and "Know" the modes....or even the Lydian Mode, because you have given them a turnkey approach to the answer, and all they need to do is move right in and play, whereas you've done all the heavy lifting.

Does that make sense?


It makes sense, and that's exactly what guys like Satch, Vai, and Johnson have been doing for decades.

I think some of the differences between all those variations of the modal applications are...

In dronal type applications the players lines are forming melodies that create linear harmonic direction in what they play.

In Rock the player tends to "play over the chord" moving the scale directly with the chord. It sounds kind of 'blocky'. It's great stuff but a little more contrived and sterile sounding.

In Modal Jazz the player tend to play in a direction towards the next chord. Using each new chord as a "I Chord" and playing the V7alt sounds, and anticipation, right before landing on the next chord. So there's a little more forward motion going on. I know it's not super present in my version of Song for John as I recorded that quite a few years ago before being throughly acquanted with jazz concepts. But when you listen to version of Stanley, McLaughlin, Corea, Di Meola, Ponty and others play it, they definite presue each chord with altered sound leading them in a direction form one chord to the next.

These are just my observances. But, I've worked through many examples of all the modes (not just Lydian) and have come to some pretty solid concepts or playing and explaining them if needed.
Last edited by MikeDodge at Dec 11, 2009,
#34
Quote by evolucian
Hmm... dunno sean... they still have to use their ear whether they are given it by spoonfeeding or by hunting. If you miss the sound of that #11 then perhaps air guitar is where it'll stay. Having those tools ready for em is cool... hunting it down might be more rewarding but the end result may be the same...


That's true. These scales will live forever based on the person and the inspiration they give.
#35
Quote by MikeDodge
That's true. These scales will live forever based on the person and the inspiration they give.


mike..do i hear mclaughlin lines in your playing...yes i do...very much in my own also...(if you get a chance give a listen to ravi coltrane..yes johns son...)

i studied with ted greene .. he would show me stuff that would take months...years in some cases to digest....when you say "keep moving" in a progression...i know what you mean...ted stressed "your going toward something or moving away from something"

the essence of modal progressions like these is ..there is no place to "go to"...your there!!!!!!

play well

wolf
#36
Im talking not about the scales but the ability to construct chords from them, say in Lydian

Here's an example, lets take C Lydian C D E F# G A B C

Now, I can construct a Csus4 or a C, C maj7, 9th etc C/F# for example are all Lydian in this context as examples

D - by itself can be Lydian as can D7, 9th etc.

Em11 for the iii chord

See where I'm going with this? I *think* Im right but Ive miscalled chords all day today while on painkillers so go easy with me

Point is using theory to construct the progression, rather than taking someone else's ideas, compositionally speaking.